Yaoqi - bone itching - OM Herpes DX and TX Plan

[Guest guest]

Just curious, in western terms, when dealing with Herpes virus pharmaceuticals

are used

as suppression therapy such as acyclovir. In terms of OM, how are we

differentiating and

creating a tx plan? Is suppression even an OM treatment ?

thanks

 

 

, A Brameier <snakeoil.works

wrote:

>

> herpes, shingles? It's said to be able to lie dormant in the

> lumbosacral area, among other places. Seems like the herbs have

> partially suppressed it. In cases of genital herpes the HSV retreats

> to the sacral ganglion at the base of the spine. Perhaps he is in a

> continued state of partial supression, ie, no full visible outbreaks.

> I'd try good doses of Lysine or Long dan xie gan tang.

> Try this general site about herpes:

> http://www.ashastd.org/herpes/herpes_learn_oralherpes.cfm

>

> Sometimes I think livery folks need to take LDXGT every once in a

> while... haha. Like... now! Spring! How irritating is that? ;-)

>

> ann

>

>

> On Mar 14, 2008, at 7:15 PM, acupuncture4health wrote:

>

> > 35 year old male presents with nighttime spinal itching - at the base

> > of the spine very focussed, not around the anus, does not worsen with

> > bowel movements or exercise.

> >

> > The itching wakens him at night a couple of hours after laying down -

> > and is intense.

> >

> > On examination there is no redness, discoloration or swelling - there

> > is nothing palpable. On questioning the itching feels like it is

> > coming from the bone both on the surface of the bone and from inside.

> >

> > The condition is more than 15 years of duration and has stumped both

> > the medical and chiropractic community.

> >

> > General intake - the patient is active, runs 3-4 miles 2-3x per week,

> > works out in the gym 2x per week. energy is generally good, suffers

> > from tension headaches which are relieved by advil. Drinks 1-2 cupss

> > of coffee daily then switches to decaf. Hydrates 48-60z of water per

> > day. Eats a healthy largely vegetarian diet with occasional chicken

> > and fish. Bowels will tend to be slow if diet changes - has suffered

> > hemmorhhoids as a teenager but not since changing his diet 10 years

> > ago.

> >

> > Pulse large and flooding in LV, there is also a fatty cyst palpable at

> > this point on the wrist which causes the pulse to move. Otherwise

> > pulse is even. No other cysts or growths.

> >

> > Tongue - coating is thin and discolored by caffeine, body is pink with

> > sl tender edges.

> >

> > The most recent modification of Jia Wei Xiao Yao San + ji xue teng,

> > bai

> > ji li, she chuang zi did reduce the intensity of the itching during

> > the

> > daytime - and has now resolved it, but the nightime itching does not

> > change.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Kayte Halstead

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

Just to be clear, I was suggesting in my post that herpes might be

considered if it hadn't been... and it wasn't mentioned in the

original query. And it wasn't noted that any of the other previous

practitioners consulted had suggested it either. That made me assume

at first that it had been eliminated as a possible Dx, but then I

thought, maybe not. That's why I suggested it be addressed with the

patient. Then suggested LDXGT as a theme of a Tx plan, with

consideration of other S/Sx of the Pt and the constitution. In short,

I was considering an " abstract patient " as said person was not

present to me. I was suggesting that certain angle be explored.

 

The general claim, of course, is that Herpes cannot be eliminated

from the system, once contracted. Is that true? A Tx for it in CM is

the Rx above. There have been previous discussions of herpes on this

list: regarding its " status " as a hidden pathogen, whether Acu Tx and/

or herbal Tx can provoke an outbreak (including LDXGT) and what that

might mean --[see May/June of '02, and July & Sept of '04].

 

So is herpes (oral or genital) not a hidden pathogen? It certainly is

a pathogen and it certainly is hidden -- until it's not.

It seems to me that in its hidden state it can still cause problems.

I recall years ago (anecdote alert:) reading in that common natural

health magazine (can't recall the name right now) where someone wrote

about a fellow who had a herpes outbreak for which he took about 10

or 20 g of Lysine (can't recall if the dose was repeated) - not only

did his herpes outbreak clear but his long-standing chronic fatigue

did as well. That made me consider that maybe the reason that Lysine

never worked for me to clear my own occasional oral herpes was that

the dose was too small; so on the next outbreak I took about 5 g at a

time and lo and behold it worked. I generally don't use such a high

dose these days, but if I'm persistent with it and also use LDXGT the

sores usually disappear within a day (esp if started early).

 

Also, LDXGT has sometimes been suggested as a remedy for headaches

(whether classed as migraines or not). I have found this to be

sometimes effective. Obviously pattern choice applies. The Pt in

question had chronic ones, perhaps complicated by regular/irregular

coffee consumption (a common HA provoker for some).

 

Can we do more than " suppress " the herpes virus? Promote general

health/immune system/psychological balance etc. etc.

We can't eliminate the bad bacteria in our intestines, but we keep

them suppressed by balancing with the good flora, healthy diet and

the power of positive thinking.

 

Sharon, you've asked a question I've wondered about for a long time.

I suspect we're not the only ones.

 

ann

 

 

On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Sharon Sherman wrote:

 

> Just curious, in western terms, when dealing with Herpes virus

> pharmaceuticals are used

> as suppression therapy such as acyclovir. In terms of OM, how are

> we differentiating and

> creating a tx plan? Is suppression even an OM treatment ?

> thanks

>

> , A Brameier

> <snakeoil.works wrote:

> >

> > herpes, shingles? It's said to be able to lie dormant in the

> > lumbosacral area, among other places. Seems like the herbs have

> > partially suppressed it. In cases of genital herpes the HSV retreats

> > to the sacral ganglion at the base of the spine. Perhaps he is in a

> > continued state of partial supression, ie, no full visible

> outbreaks.

> > I'd try good doses of Lysine or Long dan xie gan tang.

> > Try this general site about herpes:

> > http://www.ashastd.org/herpes/herpes_learn_oralherpes.cfm

> >

> > Sometimes I think livery folks need to take LDXGT every once in a

> > while... haha. Like... now! Spring! How irritating is that? ;-)

> >

> > ann

> >

> >

> > On Mar 14, 2008, at 7:15 PM, acupuncture4health wrote:

> >

> > > 35 year old male presents with nighttime spinal itching - at

> the base

> > > of the spine very focussed, not around the anus, does not

> worsen with

> > > bowel movements or exercise.

> > >

> > > The itching wakens him at night a couple of hours after laying

> down -

> > > and is intense.

> > >

> > > On examination there is no redness, discoloration or swelling -

> there

> > > is nothing palpable. On questioning the itching feels like it is

> > > coming from the bone both on the surface of the bone and from

> inside.

> > >

> > > The condition is more than 15 years of duration and has stumped

> both

> > > the medical and chiropractic community.

> > >

> > > General intake - the patient is active, runs 3-4 miles 2-3x per

> week,

> > > works out in the gym 2x per week. energy is generally good,

> suffers

> > > from tension headaches which are relieved by advil. Drinks 1-2

> cupss

> > > of coffee daily then switches to decaf. Hydrates 48-60z of

> water per

> > > day. Eats a healthy largely vegetarian diet with occasional

> chicken

> > > and fish. Bowels will tend to be slow if diet changes - has

> suffered

> > > hemmorhhoids as a teenager but not since changing his diet 10

> years

> > > ago.

> > >

> > > Pulse large and flooding in LV, there is also a fatty cyst

> palpable at

> > > this point on the wrist which causes the pulse to move. Otherwise

> > > pulse is even. No other cysts or growths.

> > >

> > > Tongue - coating is thin and discolored by caffeine, body is

> pink with

> > > sl tender edges.

> > >

> > > The most recent modification of Jia Wei Xiao Yao San + ji xue

> teng,

> > > bai

> > > ji li, she chuang zi did reduce the intensity of the itching

> during

> > > the

> > > daytime - and has now resolved it, but the nightime itching

> does not

> > > change.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts?

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > >

> > > Kayte Halstead

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ann,

Thank you for the comprehensive reply! I wasn't in any way criticizing your

ideas. My mind

went on its own query tangent when the idea of herpetic outbreak was mentioned.

I just

thought, let's throw it out for feedback/opinion

regards

Sharon

 

 

, A Brameier <snakeoil.works

wrote:

>

> Sharon,

> Just to be clear, I was suggesting in my post that herpes might be

> considered if it hadn't been... and it wasn't mentioned in the

> original query. And it wasn't noted that any of the other previous

> practitioners consulted had suggested it either. That made me assume

> at first that it had been eliminated as a possible Dx, but then I

> thought, maybe not. That's why I suggested it be addressed with the

> patient. Then suggested LDXGT as a theme of a Tx plan, with

> consideration of other S/Sx of the Pt and the constitution. In short,

> I was considering an " abstract patient " as said person was not

> present to me. I was suggesting that certain angle be explored.

>

> The general claim, of course, is that Herpes cannot be eliminated

> from the system, once contracted. Is that true? A Tx for it in CM is

> the Rx above. There have been previous discussions of herpes on this

> list: regarding its " status " as a hidden pathogen, whether Acu Tx and/

> or herbal Tx can provoke an outbreak (including LDXGT) and what that

> might mean --[see May/June of '02, and July & Sept of '04].

>

> So is herpes (oral or genital) not a hidden pathogen? It certainly is

> a pathogen and it certainly is hidden -- until it's not.

> It seems to me that in its hidden state it can still cause problems.

> I recall years ago (anecdote alert:) reading in that common natural

> health magazine (can't recall the name right now) where someone wrote

> about a fellow who had a herpes outbreak for which he took about 10

> or 20 g of Lysine (can't recall if the dose was repeated) - not only

> did his herpes outbreak clear but his long-standing chronic fatigue

> did as well. That made me consider that maybe the reason that Lysine

> never worked for me to clear my own occasional oral herpes was that

> the dose was too small; so on the next outbreak I took about 5 g at a

> time and lo and behold it worked. I generally don't use such a high

> dose these days, but if I'm persistent with it and also use LDXGT the

> sores usually disappear within a day (esp if started early).

>

> Also, LDXGT has sometimes been suggested as a remedy for headaches

> (whether classed as migraines or not). I have found this to be

> sometimes effective. Obviously pattern choice applies. The Pt in

> question had chronic ones, perhaps complicated by regular/irregular

> coffee consumption (a common HA provoker for some).

>

> Can we do more than " suppress " the herpes virus? Promote general

> health/immune system/psychological balance etc. etc.

> We can't eliminate the bad bacteria in our intestines, but we keep

> them suppressed by balancing with the good flora, healthy diet and

> the power of positive thinking.

>

> Sharon, you've asked a question I've wondered about for a long time.

> I suspect we're not the only ones.

>

> ann

>

>

> On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Sharon Sherman wrote:

>

> > Just curious, in western terms, when dealing with Herpes virus

> > pharmaceuticals are used

> > as suppression therapy such as acyclovir. In terms of OM, how are

> > we differentiating and

> > creating a tx plan? Is suppression even an OM treatment ?

> > thanks

> >

> > , A Brameier

> > <snakeoil.works@> wrote:

> > >

> > > herpes, shingles? It's said to be able to lie dormant in the

> > > lumbosacral area, among other places. Seems like the herbs have

> > > partially suppressed it. In cases of genital herpes the HSV retreats

> > > to the sacral ganglion at the base of the spine. Perhaps he is in a

> > > continued state of partial supression, ie, no full visible

> > outbreaks.

> > > I'd try good doses of Lysine or Long dan xie gan tang.

> > > Try this general site about herpes:

> > > http://www.ashastd.org/herpes/herpes_learn_oralherpes.cfm

> > >

> > > Sometimes I think livery folks need to take LDXGT every once in a

> > > while... haha. Like... now! Spring! How irritating is that? ;-)

> > >

> > > ann

> > >

> > >

> > > On Mar 14, 2008, at 7:15 PM, acupuncture4health wrote:

> > >

> > > > 35 year old male presents with nighttime spinal itching - at

> > the base

> > > > of the spine very focussed, not around the anus, does not

> > worsen with

> > > > bowel movements or exercise.

> > > >

> > > > The itching wakens him at night a couple of hours after laying

> > down -

> > > > and is intense.

> > > >

> > > > On examination there is no redness, discoloration or swelling -

> > there

> > > > is nothing palpable. On questioning the itching feels like it is

> > > > coming from the bone both on the surface of the bone and from

> > inside.

> > > >

> > > > The condition is more than 15 years of duration and has stumped

> > both

> > > > the medical and chiropractic community.

> > > >

> > > > General intake - the patient is active, runs 3-4 miles 2-3x per

> > week,

> > > > works out in the gym 2x per week. energy is generally good,

> > suffers

> > > > from tension headaches which are relieved by advil. Drinks 1-2

> > cupss

> > > > of coffee daily then switches to decaf. Hydrates 48-60z of

> > water per

> > > > day. Eats a healthy largely vegetarian diet with occasional

> > chicken

> > > > and fish. Bowels will tend to be slow if diet changes - has

> > suffered

> > > > hemmorhhoids as a teenager but not since changing his diet 10

> > years

> > > > ago.

> > > >

> > > > Pulse large and flooding in LV, there is also a fatty cyst

> > palpable at

> > > > this point on the wrist which causes the pulse to move. Otherwise

> > > > pulse is even. No other cysts or growths.

> > > >

> > > > Tongue - coating is thin and discolored by caffeine, body is

> > pink with

> > > > sl tender edges.

> > > >

> > > > The most recent modification of Jia Wei Xiao Yao San + ji xue

> > teng,

> > > > bai

> > > > ji li, she chuang zi did reduce the intensity of the itching

> > during

> > > > the

> > > > daytime - and has now resolved it, but the nightime itching

> > does not

> > > > change.

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > >

> > > > Kayte Halstead

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

No, I didn't think it was a critique, but it touched one of my

wondering buttons. haha.

 

a

 

On Mar 17, 2008, at 5:31 PM, Sharon Sherman wrote:

 

> Ann,

> Thank you for the comprehensive reply! I wasn't in any way

> criticizing your ideas. My mind

> went on its own query tangent when the idea of herpetic outbreak

> was mentioned. I just

> thought, let's throw it out for feedback/opinion

> regards

> Sharon

>

> , A Brameier

> <snakeoil.works wrote:

> >

> > Sharon,

> > Just to be clear, I was suggesting in my post that herpes might be

> > considered if it hadn't been... and it wasn't mentioned in the

> > original query. And it wasn't noted that any of the other previous

> > practitioners consulted had suggested it either. That made me assume

> > at first that it had been eliminated as a possible Dx, but then I

> > thought, maybe not. That's why I suggested it be addressed with the

> > patient. Then suggested LDXGT as a theme of a Tx plan, with

> > consideration of other S/Sx of the Pt and the constitution. In

> short,

> > I was considering an " abstract patient " as said person was not

> > present to me. I was suggesting that certain angle be explored.

> >

> > The general claim, of course, is that Herpes cannot be eliminated

> > from the system, once contracted. Is that true? A Tx for it in CM is

> > the Rx above. There have been previous discussions of herpes on this

> > list: regarding its " status " as a hidden pathogen, whether Acu Tx

> and/

> > or herbal Tx can provoke an outbreak (including LDXGT) and what that

> > might mean --[see May/June of '02, and July & Sept of '04].

> >

> > So is herpes (oral or genital) not a hidden pathogen? It

> certainly is

> > a pathogen and it certainly is hidden -- until it's not.

> > It seems to me that in its hidden state it can still cause problems.

> > I recall years ago (anecdote alert:) reading in that common natural

> > health magazine (can't recall the name right now) where someone

> wrote

> > about a fellow who had a herpes outbreak for which he took about 10

> > or 20 g of Lysine (can't recall if the dose was repeated) - not only

> > did his herpes outbreak clear but his long-standing chronic fatigue

> > did as well. That made me consider that maybe the reason that Lysine

> > never worked for me to clear my own occasional oral herpes was that

> > the dose was too small; so on the next outbreak I took about 5 g

> at a

> > time and lo and behold it worked. I generally don't use such a high

> > dose these days, but if I'm persistent with it and also use LDXGT

> the

> > sores usually disappear within a day (esp if started early).

> >

> > Also, LDXGT has sometimes been suggested as a remedy for headaches

> > (whether classed as migraines or not). I have found this to be

> > sometimes effective. Obviously pattern choice applies. The Pt in

> > question had chronic ones, perhaps complicated by regular/irregular

> > coffee consumption (a common HA provoker for some).

> >

> > Can we do more than " suppress " the herpes virus? Promote general

> > health/immune system/psychological balance etc. etc.

> > We can't eliminate the bad bacteria in our intestines, but we keep

> > them suppressed by balancing with the good flora, healthy diet and

> > the power of positive thinking.

> >

> > Sharon, you've asked a question I've wondered about for a long time.

> > I suspect we're not the only ones.

> >

> > ann

> >

> >

> > On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Sharon Sherman wrote:

> >

> > > Just curious, in western terms, when dealing with Herpes virus

> > > pharmaceuticals are used

> > > as suppression therapy such as acyclovir. In terms of OM, how are

> > > we differentiating and

> > > creating a tx plan? Is suppression even an OM treatment ?

> > > thanks

> > >

> > > , A Brameier

> > > <snakeoil.works@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > herpes, shingles? It's said to be able to lie dormant in the

> > > > lumbosacral area, among other places. Seems like the herbs have

> > > > partially suppressed it. In cases of genital herpes the HSV

> retreats

> > > > to the sacral ganglion at the base of the spine. Perhaps he

> is in a

> > > > continued state of partial supression, ie, no full visible

> > > outbreaks.

> > > > I'd try good doses of Lysine or Long dan xie gan tang.

> > > > Try this general site about herpes:

> > > > http://www.ashastd.org/herpes/herpes_learn_oralherpes.cfm

> > > >

> > > > Sometimes I think livery folks need to take LDXGT every once

> in a

> > > > while... haha. Like... now! Spring! How irritating is that? ;-)

> > > >

> > > > ann

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > On Mar 14, 2008, at 7:15 PM, acupuncture4health wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > 35 year old male presents with nighttime spinal itching - at

> > > the base

> > > > > of the spine very focussed, not around the anus, does not

> > > worsen with

> > > > > bowel movements or exercise.

> > > > >

> > > > > The itching wakens him at night a couple of hours after laying

> > > down -

> > > > > and is intense.

> > > > >

> > > > > On examination there is no redness, discoloration or

> swelling -

> > > there

> > > > > is nothing palpable. On questioning the itching feels like

> it is

> > > > > coming from the bone both on the surface of the bone and from

> > > inside.

> > > > >

> > > > > The condition is more than 15 years of duration and has

> stumped

> > > both

> > > > > the medical and chiropractic community.

> > > > >

> > > > > General intake - the patient is active, runs 3-4 miles 2-3x

> per

> > > week,

> > > > > works out in the gym 2x per week. energy is generally good,

> > > suffers

> > > > > from tension headaches which are relieved by advil. Drinks 1-2

> > > cupss

> > > > > of coffee daily then switches to decaf. Hydrates 48-60z of

> > > water per

> > > > > day. Eats a healthy largely vegetarian diet with occasional

> > > chicken

> > > > > and fish. Bowels will tend to be slow if diet changes - has

> > > suffered

> > > > > hemmorhhoids as a teenager but not since changing his diet 10

> > > years

> > > > > ago.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pulse large and flooding in LV, there is also a fatty cyst

> > > palpable at

> > > > > this point on the wrist which causes the pulse to move.

> Otherwise

> > > > > pulse is even. No other cysts or growths.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tongue - coating is thin and discolored by caffeine, body is

> > > pink with

> > > > > sl tender edges.

> > > > >

> > > > > The most recent modification of Jia Wei Xiao Yao San + ji xue

> > > teng,

> > > > > bai

> > > > > ji li, she chuang zi did reduce the intensity of the itching

> > > during

> > > > > the

> > > > > daytime - and has now resolved it, but the nightime itching

> > > does not

> > > > > change.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any thoughts?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks

> > > > >

> > > > > Kayte Halstead

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >