Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is considered contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who has always done well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao (plus other herbs) because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is hoping to get pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need these herbs (she is 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the yin and yang deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open to ideas. And is Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? Thanks! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 gui ban moves yin stasis... --- heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > considered > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > has always done > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > (plus other herbs) > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > hoping to get > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > these herbs (she is > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > yin and yang > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > to ideas. And is > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > Thanks! > > Laura > > ______________________________\ ____ Never miss a thing. Make your home page. http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Thanks for replying. I'm not sure I understand though. The term yin stasis isn't talk about much. Does that mean that it moves blood? Clears dampness? I think of it as a very strong yin tonic. , david appleton <acuapple wrote: > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > --- heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > considered > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > has always done > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > (plus other herbs) > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > hoping to get > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > these herbs (she is > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > yin and yang > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > to ideas. And is > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > http://www./r/hs > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 What is yin stasis and where did you come across this info? , david appleton <acuapple wrote: > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > --- heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > considered > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > has always done > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > (plus other herbs) > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > hoping to get > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > these herbs (she is > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > yin and yang > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > to ideas. And is > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > http://www./r/hs > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I'm glad to see that you don't know that term either Bob, because I wasn't sure what he was referring to. Do you know why Gui Ban is contraindicated in pregnancy. It says that in Bensky and a couple other books, but I cannot imagine why. , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across this info? > > , david appleton > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > > considered > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > > has always done > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > > (plus other herbs) > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > > hoping to get > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > > these herbs (she is > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > > yin and yang > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > > to ideas. And is > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > http://www./r/hs > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 from jeffrey yuen, stagnation of yin due to yin def --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > What is yin stasis and where did you come across > this info? > > , david > appleton > <acuapple wrote: > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban > is > > > considered > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient > who > > > has always done > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao > Jiao > > > (plus other herbs) > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She > is > > > hoping to get > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will > need > > > these herbs (she is > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat > the > > > yin and yang > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm > open > > > to ideas. And is > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 And does Yuen say that this is why Gui Ban is contraindicated in pregnancy? Doug , david appleton <acuapple wrote: > > from jeffrey yuen, stagnation of yin due to yin def > --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across > > this info? > > > > , david > > appleton > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban > > is > > > > considered > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient > > who > > > > has always done > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao > > Jiao > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She > > is > > > > hoping to get > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will > > need > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat > > the > > > > yin and yang > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm > > open > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Interesting. What are symptoms of yin stasis? How does it present differently from yin def? , david appleton <acuapple wrote: > > from jeffrey yuen, stagnation of yin due to yin def > --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across > > this info? > > > > , david > > appleton > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban > > is > > > > considered > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient > > who > > > > has always done > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao > > Jiao > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She > > is > > > > hoping to get > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will > > need > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat > > the > > > > yin and yang > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm > > open > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Terminological issues such as these make a strong case for accountable translation criteria. Jeffrey Yuen may lecture about yin stasis, but lacking such a term in Chinese medical dictionaries, we are left with guesswork. The Wiseman dictionary mentions xu4/amassment as possible for fluids, ting2/collection of water in the stomach or abdomen, bu4 li4/inhibition applies to a partial or mild stoppage to movement of fluids or blood. The Great Dictionary of mentions yin block/yin1 bi4. Yu1/stasis only applies to xue/blood, not to fluids or yin, as a technical term. It leads to a generalized expression (yin stasis) without a clear definition (what type of yin? All yin? Fluids? Turbid yin? Stasis? Or does Jeffrey mean block, turbidity, accumulation?). This type of vagueness leads to left-field interpretations and increasing murkiness of understanding. Is it any wonder that such confusion reins in our profession when we wish to discuss the actual theoretical foundations? This reminds me of the thread a few weeks back over the statement in a Maciocia seminar, " all yin for the body originates in the stomach " , and all the guesswork that ensued over what that actually meant, or what the source for that statement was. On Mar 25, 2008, at 8:52 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > Interesting. What are symptoms of yin stasis? How does it present > differently from yin def? Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 According to Bensky, page 368, cautions & contraindications (revised edition - 1993), " Ancient sources would indicate that Gui Ban is contra indicated during pregnancy because it softens hardness, expels estasis, and aids difficult births " . I guess it has something to do with its salty flavor. JPaes , " " wrote: > > And does Yuen say that this is why Gui Ban is contraindicated in > pregnancy? > Doug > > > , david appleton > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > from jeffrey yuen, stagnation of yin due to yin def > > --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001@> wrote: > > > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across > > > this info? > > > > > > , david > > > appleton > > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban > > > is > > > > > considered > > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient > > > who > > > > > has always done > > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao > > > Jiao > > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She > > > is > > > > > hoping to get > > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will > > > need > > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat > > > the > > > > > yin and yang > > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm > > > open > > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > > Find them fast with Search. > http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 I'm wondering if Gui ban is contraindicated during pregnancy because of its interaction with the uterus? It is used for uterine bleeding : Gu jing wan (Gui ban, bai shao are chief herbs). In TCM, the reasoning is because it nourishes yin and clears heat, thereby stopping bleeding due to yin def. heat pushing blood out of the vessels. (Chen, Chinese Medical Herb/Pharm pg 966) This seems to be opposite of David's assertion of Gui ban reducing yin stasis? Or is it the same notion? Is there any bio-medical research out on this? 2. Also, Gui ban is cold. Is it too cold for pregnancy? 3. Gui ban is salty (salty softens nodules; injure fetus?) 4 The vinegar processed form of Gui ban has an action separate from the unprocessed. The vinegar processed form dissipates nodules and softens masses (salty taste) Could it be that the vinegar processed Gui ban is the form contraindicated during pregnancy? Vinegar goes to the blood aspect and moves xue. K. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > Terminological issues such as these make a strong case for accountable > translation criteria. Jeffrey Yuen may lecture about yin stasis, but > lacking such a term in Chinese medical dictionaries, we are left with > guesswork. The Wiseman dictionary mentions xu4/amassment as possible > for fluids, ting2/collection of water in the stomach or abdomen, bu4 > li4/inhibition applies to a partial or mild stoppage to movement of > fluids or blood. The Great Dictionary of mentions > yin block/yin1 bi4. Yu1/stasis only applies to xue/blood, not to > fluids or yin, as a technical term. It leads to a generalized > expression (yin stasis) without a clear definition (what type of yin? > All yin? Fluids? Turbid yin? Stasis? Or does Jeffrey mean block, > turbidity, accumulation?). This type of vagueness leads to left-field > interpretations and increasing murkiness of understanding. > > Is it any wonder that such confusion reins in our profession when we > wish to discuss the actual theoretical foundations? This reminds me > of the thread a few weeks back over the statement in a Maciocia > seminar, " all yin for the body originates in the stomach " , and all the > guesswork that ensued over what that actually meant, or what the > source for that statement was. > > > > > On Mar 25, 2008, at 8:52 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > Interesting. What are symptoms of yin stasis? How does it present > > differently from yin def? > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Laura, I don't know the term yin stasis, but perhaps the contraindication is simply that Gui ban is energetically heavy and could thus have a downbearing effect on the fetus, at least theoretically. The impression I get is that it is more of a theoretical contraindication than an experiential one, but I'm only guessing. What works is what works, after all, regardless of words. Joseph Garner heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Interesting. What are symptoms of yin stasis? How does it present differently from yin def? , david appleton <acuapple wrote: > > from jeffrey yuen, stagnation of yin due to yin def > --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across > > this info? > > > > , david > > appleton > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban > > is > > > > considered > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient > > who > > > > has always done > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao > > Jiao > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She > > is > > > > hoping to get > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will > > need > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat > > the > > > > yin and yang > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm > > open > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Joseph, Without words, we cannot communicate what we do, and whatever clinical phenomena occurs is distorted by imprecise terminology. The separation between experience and theory is non-existent in Chinese medicine. If no one understands 'yin stasis' or can find a definition for it in any Chinese or English language source, the concept is useless. Guesswork does not medicine make. On Mar 26, 2008, at 7:45 AM, Joseph Garner wrote: > Laura, > I don't know the term yin stasis, but perhaps the contraindication > is simply that Gui ban is energetically heavy and could thus have a > downbearing effect on the fetus, at least theoretically. The > impression I get is that it is more of a theoretical > contraindication than an experiential one, but I'm only guessing. > What works is what works, after all, regardless of words. > Joseph Garner Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 OK, I'll bite. Stagnation of what yin? Do you mean yin fluids? Do you mean yin blood? There is no such thing as stasis or stagnation of kidney yin (true yin, zhen yin). Once again, the importance of referencing the Chinese characters in order for all of us to know what we're talking about. For the record, Gui Ban and Bie Jia do both quicken the blood. (I know this is not in Bensky et al., but it is well documented in the Chinese literature.) Bie Jia quickens more and Gui Ban quickens less, but these two meds can be used interchangeably if necessary. I think this is what we are talking about here. IMHO, we need to be more proactive when listening to Chinese teachers. We need to ask them exactly what they mean when they make statements such as this. We need to know what the Chinese characters are, and we need citations vetting authority. Without such, no one can cross-reference teachings from teacher to teacher and book to book, nor check the autheniticity, veracity, and reliablity of such statements. As a profession, if we do not up our game in terms of critical thinking skills and basic principles of scholarship, then we will never mature, nor will we ever be able to communicate to each other in a clear and transparent way. Bob , david appleton <acuapple wrote: > > from jeffrey yuen, stagnation of yin due to yin def > --- Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across > > this info? > > > > , david > > appleton > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban > > is > > > > considered > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient > > who > > > > has always done > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao > > Jiao > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She > > is > > > > hoping to get > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will > > need > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat > > the > > > > yin and yang > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm > > open > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Seems like a good theory to me--that it is the vinegar treated Gui Ban that is contraindicated. But also the point that Bob makes later that it can quicken the blood is something to consider. I agree with the concerns expressed about having a cohesive terminology. Has anyone used Gui Ban in pregnancy, or have any experience either way? , " " <johnkokko wrote: > > I'm wondering if Gui ban is contraindicated during pregnancy because of its > interaction with the uterus? > It is used for uterine bleeding : Gu jing wan (Gui ban, bai shao are chief > herbs). > In TCM, the reasoning is because it nourishes yin and clears heat, thereby > stopping bleeding > due to yin def. heat pushing blood out of the vessels. (Chen, Chinese > Medical Herb/Pharm pg 966) > This seems to be opposite of David's assertion of Gui ban reducing yin > stasis? > Or is it the same notion? > > Is there any bio-medical research out on this? > > 2. Also, Gui ban is cold. Is it too cold for pregnancy? > > 3. Gui ban is salty (salty softens nodules; injure fetus?) > > 4 The vinegar processed form of Gui ban has an action separate from the > unprocessed. > The vinegar processed form dissipates nodules and softens masses (salty > taste) > Could it be that the vinegar processed Gui ban is the form contraindicated > during pregnancy? > Vinegar goes to the blood aspect and moves xue. > > K. > > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 9:22 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > Terminological issues such as these make a strong case for accountable > > translation criteria. Jeffrey Yuen may lecture about yin stasis, but > > lacking such a term in Chinese medical dictionaries, we are left with > > guesswork. The Wiseman dictionary mentions xu4/amassment as possible > > for fluids, ting2/collection of water in the stomach or abdomen, bu4 > > li4/inhibition applies to a partial or mild stoppage to movement of > > fluids or blood. The Great Dictionary of mentions > > yin block/yin1 bi4. Yu1/stasis only applies to xue/blood, not to > > fluids or yin, as a technical term. It leads to a generalized > > expression (yin stasis) without a clear definition (what type of yin? > > All yin? Fluids? Turbid yin? Stasis? Or does Jeffrey mean block, > > turbidity, accumulation?). This type of vagueness leads to left-field > > interpretations and increasing murkiness of understanding. > > > > Is it any wonder that such confusion reins in our profession when we > > wish to discuss the actual theoretical foundations? This reminds me > > of the thread a few weeks back over the statement in a Maciocia > > seminar, " all yin for the body originates in the stomach " , and all the > > guesswork that ensued over what that actually meant, or what the > > source for that statement was. > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2008, at 8:52 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > > Interesting. What are symptoms of yin stasis? How does it present > > > differently from yin def? > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Revenge for terms such as vexatious. Sorry - couldn't resist.. and I still have no idea what the heck vexatious means. Geoff , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > > I'm glad to see that you don't know that term either Bob, because I > wasn't sure what he was referring to. Do you know why Gui Ban is > contraindicated in pregnancy. It says that in Bensky and a couple > other books, but I cannot imagine why. > > > > > > , " Bob Flaws " > <pemachophel2001@> wrote: > > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across this info? > > > > , david appleton > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > > > considered > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > > > has always done > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > > > hoping to get > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > > > yin and yang > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Webster's New World Dictionary: " causing vexation, annoying. " As in, it's really annoying that supposedly Master's level professionals don't know how or choose to use a dictionary. Similarly, there's no particular reason why a Western medical student should know what a histosalpingogram is whithout looking that up. Sorry, this is truly depressing. Bob , " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote: > > Revenge for terms such as vexatious. > > Sorry - couldn't resist.. and I still have no idea what the heck > vexatious means. > > Geoff > > , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> > wrote: > > > > > > I'm glad to see that you don't know that term either Bob, because I > > wasn't sure what he was referring to. Do you know why Gui Ban is > > contraindicated in pregnancy. It says that in Bensky and a couple > > other books, but I cannot imagine why. > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Bob Flaws " > > <pemachophel2001@> wrote: > > > > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across this info? > > > > > > , david appleton > > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > > > > considered > > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > > > > has always done > > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > > > > hoping to get > > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > > > > yin and yang > > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Hi Laura, Gui Ban is used to " opens the joining bone (pubic/pelvic bones) " and hastens labor. My understanding is that is can help loosen the pelvic ligaments and so is contraindicated for pregnancy. It is part of Zhang Jing Yue's formula Cui Sheng Tuo Jian Hastening Life Cast Off the Flower Drink for hastening labor. My teacher used it in this way as well. I have not heard of lu jiao jiao being contraindicated. Sharon Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > considered > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > has always done > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > (plus other herbs) > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > hoping to get > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > these herbs (she is > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > yin and yang > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > to ideas. And is > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 It'll pass Bob. Sometimes I also just feel downright vexatiously. Doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Webster's New World Dictionary: " causing vexation, annoying. " > > As in, it's really annoying that supposedly Master's level > professionals don't know how or choose to use a dictionary. > > Similarly, there's no particular reason why a Western medical student > should know what a histosalpingogram is whithout looking that up. > > Sorry, this is truly depressing. > > Bob > > , " G Hudson " <crudo20@> wrote: > > > > Revenge for terms such as vexatious. > > > > Sorry - couldn't resist.. and I still have no idea what the heck > > vexatious means. > > > > Geoff > > > > , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm glad to see that you don't know that term either Bob, because I > > > wasn't sure what he was referring to. Do you know why Gui Ban is > > > contraindicated in pregnancy. It says that in Bensky and a couple > > > other books, but I cannot imagine why. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Bob Flaws " > > > <pemachophel2001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > What is yin stasis and where did you come across this info? > > > > > > > > , david appleton > > > > <acuapple@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > gui ban moves yin stasis... > > > > > --- heylaurag <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > > > > > considered > > > > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > > > > > has always done > > > > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > > > > > (plus other herbs) > > > > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > > > > > hoping to get > > > > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > > > > > these herbs (she is > > > > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > > > > > yin and yang > > > > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > > > > > to ideas. And is > > > > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make your home page. > > > > > http://www./r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 I was trying to be a bit light hearted about the matter, but it's about as vexatious as using terms as effulgent etc in an idiosyncratic manner - at least histosalpingogram is a term in regular use. In my few years of school the term was never used by Chinese or American professors - but to each his own. Chinese would be much easier. Geoff , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Webster's New World Dictionary: " causing vexation, annoying. " > > As in, it's really annoying that supposedly Master's level > professionals don't know how or choose to use a dictionary. > > Similarly, there's no particular reason why a Western medical student > should know what a histosalpingogram is whithout looking that up. > > Sorry, this is truly depressing. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Geoff, Idiosyncratic may be a little excessive in describing the term effulgent. I don't see the problem in looking up an English word if it is the best and most accurate choice for the Chinese/Pinyin term. On Mar 27, 2008, at 1:05 PM, G Hudson wrote: > I was trying to be a bit light hearted about the matter, but it's > about as vexatious as using terms as effulgent etc in an idiosyncratic > manner - at least histosalpingogram is a term in regular use. In my > few years of school the term was never used by Chinese or American > professors - but to each his own. Chinese would be much easier. > > Geoff Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 Thanks Sharon. The formula I have used for her is Gui Lu Er Xian Jiao. Its not a well-known formula so I'll tell you what's in it: Lu Jiao Jiao Gui Ban Gou Qi Zi Ren Shen Its in the Bensky book under yang tonification, but it tonifies yin, yang, blood and qi (obviously, from looking at it). I find that it can be challenging to treat people with both yin and yang deficiency and this formula seems to work well (with some Chen Pi, of course). Anyone have similar ideas that don't use Gui Ban? I suppose Liu Wei Di Huang Wan plus some mild yang tonics is an option but she hasn't done as well with that as with this. But perhaps I haven't used the right yang tonics. Its always good to hear about formulas that others find useful, so ideas are welcome. , Sharon Weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > > Hi Laura, > > Gui Ban is used to " opens the joining bone (pubic/pelvic bones) " and > hastens labor. My understanding is that is can help loosen the pelvic > ligaments and so is contraindicated for pregnancy. It is part of > Zhang Jing Yue's formula Cui Sheng Tuo Jian Hastening Life Cast Off > the Flower Drink for hastening labor. My teacher used it in this way > as well. I have not heard of lu jiao jiao being contraindicated. > > Sharon > > > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows why Gui Ban is > > > considered > > > contraindicated in pregnancy? I have a patient who > > > has always done > > > well with a combination of Gui Ban and Lu Jiao Jiao > > > (plus other herbs) > > > because she is both yin and yang deficient. She is > > > hoping to get > > > pregnant and I am anticipating that she will need > > > these herbs (she is > > > 41 years old). I've tried other ways to treat the > > > yin and yang > > > deficiency but haven't had much luck--but I'm open > > > to ideas. And is > > > Lu Jiao Jiao contraindicated in pregnancy? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2008 Report Share Posted March 27, 2008 The whole point of using standardized English terms for Chinese medical terms is so that a common source can be referenced. It may be an " idiosyncratic " term, but at least I know what Chinese word is being referenced when I look it up in the dictionary. If I have no clue what the term is, as in " yin stasis " , it may be cool sounding but without a source to reference it is much more vague and difficult to understand. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Mar 27, 2008, at 3:05 PM, G Hudson wrote: > I was trying to be a bit light hearted about the matter, but it's > about as vexatious as using terms as effulgent etc in an idiosyncratic > manner - at least histosalpingogram is a term in regular use. In my > few years of school the term was never used by Chinese or American > professors - but to each his own. Chinese would be much easier. > > Geoff > > , " Bob Flaws " > <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > > Webster's New World Dictionary: " causing vexation, annoying. " > > > > As in, it's really annoying that supposedly Master's level > > professionals don't know how or choose to use a dictionary. > > > > Similarly, there's no particular reason why a Western medical > student > > should know what a histosalpingogram is whithout looking that up. > > > > Sorry, this is truly depressing. > > > > Bob > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 Geoff, You might also want to look up the meaning of idiosyncratic while you're at it. Bob , " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote: > > I was trying to be a bit light hearted about the matter, but it's > about as vexatious as using terms as effulgent etc in an idiosyncratic > manner - at least histosalpingogram is a term in regular use. In my > few years of school the term was never used by Chinese or American > professors - but to each his own. Chinese would be much easier. > > Geoff > > , " Bob Flaws " > <pemachophel2001@> wrote: > > > > Webster's New World Dictionary: " causing vexation, annoying. " > > > > As in, it's really annoying that supposedly Master's level > > professionals don't know how or choose to use a dictionary. > > > > Similarly, there's no particular reason why a Western medical student > > should know what a histosalpingogram is whithout looking that up. > > > > Sorry, this is truly depressing. > > > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 Bob, I don't see a problem in this context at all. Anyways, terminology has been debated ad nauseam here and I obviously hit a sore spot. Sorry and let's move on. Geoff , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Geoff, > > You might also want to look up the meaning of idiosyncratic while > you're at it. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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