Guest guest Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Hi Geoff, You mentioned " Blood stagnation rather than Toxic heat since there's no pus. " I would have to disagree. The category of herbs that relieve fire toxin is one of the largest in the books. The range of expression for this is huge and includes many symptoms other than just pus. Look at other lesions like psoriasis which rarely has pus or even weeps, but yet one of the main treatment principles is to resolve fire toxin using herbs like Tu Fu Ling in large doses. Knowing how to properly judge what kind of fire toxin is manifesting, whether deep or superficial or dry or moist is critical for good clinical outcomes and knowing what herb to choose from such a large selection. I agree completely about the use of blood invigorating medicinals, I just think it is important to better define fire toxin and understand that it does not always corespond to this western idea of pus/ infection. Trevor , " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote: > > Have you considered treating Blood stasis? You might try looking at > the Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang variations and placing a heavier emphasis on > treating stasis first and consider the Sp Qi if needed. The lesion > description sounds like Blood stagnation rather than Toxic heat since > there's no pus. > > Geoff > > > , " Trevor Erikson " > <trevor_erikson@> wrote: > > > > Deb, > > Does the patient still have loose stools with a foul smell? > > > > If so then you may look at using herbs like: > > > > Si Miao San with Bi Xie to clear out damp heat from the lower jiao. > > > > Ma Chia Xian to clear fire toxin and cool the blood to stop bleeding. > > It is a specific for weeping skin lesions and is also good for the > > intestines. Use a bigger dose of 24 to 30 grams. > > > > Bai Jiang Cao to clear damp heat/ fire toxin from both the skin and > > intestines and as well invigorate the blood. > > > > Chi Shao to invigorate and cool blood. > > > > Ze xie and Hua Shi to drain the damp. > > > > Ru xiang and Mo Yao to stop pain. > > > > The external powder I mentioned earlier or any other that will help to > > stop bleeding and promote tissue growth will help greatly. An An > > ointment may be too moist. > > > > This would be a place to start from anyways. I am not sure how you > > would figure out this in a pill form?? I have access to Bema herbs up > > here in Vancouver who will put any granule formula that I design into > > a tablet or capsule within 24 hours, pretty convenient. But I know > > what it is like trying to convince people to take 20 or so pills 2 > > times a day, not easy!! > > > > Good luck, > > Trevor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Deb Marshall " > > <taichideb@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Trevor, > > > > > > Dose size has been one of my big concerns with this patient. Other > > times I've managed to get good results with pills in large doses, but > > there comes a time when it feels like the patient's eating so many > > pills there's no room for food. And combined with her spleen qi > > deficiency, the fire toxin formula was difficult for her to digest. > > > Since she couldn't tolerate the taste of decoction, maybe I'll > > try the fire toxin formula in granules and try administering them in > > applesauce or something and see if she can get a larger dose down that > > way. Her spleen deficiency is significantly better now, so maybe > > she'll be able to tolerate it better. She's willing, she just may not > > be able. Do you have any suggestion besides Wu Wei Xiao Du Yin plus > > coptis? > > > Thanks for your help. > > > ---Deb > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Trevor - That sounds right - you do see a lot of descriptions of lesions as 'fire toxin' in the literature. I recalled having heard that fire toxin involved pus (or perhaps any exudate). As far as differentiating Fire Toxin from Fire or Blood Heat by visual inspection - what are some useful criteria? Talking to docs that practice out in the isolated rural areas of this country - it's clear that many of us city folk don't see many cases at late stages. I wonder if the fire toxin category is so large in the Chinese literature due to the advanced nature of dermatological disease likely seen in the vast rural areas of China where health care is hard to access? That's assuming that in poor hygiene rural areas with progressive deterioration of lesions are likely to become infected as the skin looses it's barrier ability. Geoff , " Trevor Erikson " <trevor_erikson wrote: > > Hi Geoff, > > You mentioned " Blood stagnation rather than Toxic heat since > there's no pus. " I would have to disagree. The category of herbs that > relieve fire toxin is one of the largest in the books. The range of > expression for this is huge and includes many symptoms other than just > pus. Look at other lesions like psoriasis which rarely has pus or even > weeps, but yet one of the main treatment principles is to resolve fire > toxin using herbs like Tu Fu Ling in large doses. > > Knowing how to properly judge what kind of fire toxin is manifesting, > whether deep or superficial or dry or moist is critical for good > clinical outcomes and knowing what herb to choose from such a large > selection. > > I agree completely about the use of blood invigorating medicinals, I > just think it is important to better define fire toxin and understand > that it does not always corespond to this western idea of pus/ infection. > > Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Hi Geoff, When talking about skin lesions, Fire toxin can refer to a wide spectrum of exudate- yellow crusting, clear, pustular, ect, There would be different types of herbs to address the different types of lesions with these different types of exudate. This would usually always be used in conjunction with herbs to clear and drain damp heat. Exudate does not always have to be present to have a large element of fire toxin at work. Like I mentioned before, psoriasis is very much like this. Psoriasis is typically a dry disease, with pustular or damp varieties being a lot rarer. One way to discriminate between blood heat and fire toxin in psoriasis is to look at how attached, large, and thick the plaque is. Blood heat is always present in psoriasis, but if it is the primary pattern then these lesions will look more superficial and less attached. The term fire toxin, as I understand it, can refer to anything that is virulent, progressive, manifesting in ways other than the norm, widespread, angry, painful, attached, stubborn, ect. It is a measure to define the degree of severity of the lesion, and as you mentioned sometimes this can mean pus. A saying I hear a lot in dermatology is that if a lesion is not getting better with treatment then always consider either fire toxin or blood stasis or both. Trevor , " G Hudson " <crudo20 wrote: > > Trevor - > That sounds right - you do see a lot of descriptions of lesions as > 'fire toxin' in the literature. I recalled having heard that fire > toxin involved pus (or perhaps any exudate). As far as > differentiating Fire Toxin from Fire or Blood Heat by visual > inspection - what are some useful criteria? > > Talking to docs that practice out in the isolated rural areas of this > country - it's clear that many of us city folk don't see many cases at > late stages. I wonder if the fire toxin category is so large in the > Chinese literature due to the advanced nature of dermatological > disease likely seen in the vast rural areas of China where health care > is hard to access? That's assuming that in poor hygiene rural areas > with progressive deterioration of lesions are likely to become > infected as the skin looses it's barrier ability. > > Geoff > > , " Trevor Erikson " > <trevor_erikson@> wrote: > > > > Hi Geoff, > > > > You mentioned " Blood stagnation rather than Toxic heat since > > there's no pus. " I would have to disagree. The category of herbs that > > relieve fire toxin is one of the largest in the books. The range of > > expression for this is huge and includes many symptoms other than just > > pus. Look at other lesions like psoriasis which rarely has pus or even > > weeps, but yet one of the main treatment principles is to resolve fire > > toxin using herbs like Tu Fu Ling in large doses. > > > > Knowing how to properly judge what kind of fire toxin is manifesting, > > whether deep or superficial or dry or moist is critical for good > > clinical outcomes and knowing what herb to choose from such a large > > selection. > > > > I agree completely about the use of blood invigorating medicinals, I > > just think it is important to better define fire toxin and understand > > that it does not always corespond to this western idea of pus/ > infection. > > > > Trevor > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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