Guest guest Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 Just reading an article on hidden evil warm diseases (fy xie wen bing) in issue #1, 2008 of Bei Jing Zhong Yi Yao (Bejing & Pharmacology). On the different types of hidden evils, quoting the Qing dynasty Wen Re Feng Yuan (Penetrating Insight into Warm Heat) it says: " When one contracts the six environmental excesses and these do not result in [immediate] disease but [disease] occurs a long time later, these are called hidden evils... Hidden evils are hidden dryness, hidden cold, hidden wind, hidden dampness, [and] hidden heat. " So, according to this book, at least five of the six environmental excesses can become hidden evils. However, later in this article, it talks about summerheat evils also becoming hidden evils when mixed with either cold or dampness. According to the same book (Wen Re Feng Yuan), if " these [hidden evils] damage (shang) a person, they lead to kidney qi vacuity. " " Hidden storage " (fu zang) is where the hidden evils are located or stored in the body. This becomes clear when the author quotes various books about hidden evils being stored (zang) in the skin, stored in the bones, stored in the membranes, or stored in the bone marrow. According to the author of the Wen Re Feng Yuan, there are three mechanisms whereby hidden evils can be produced: 1. Evil qi becomes depressed [and therefore] lies deeply (or hides) and is not out-thrust 2. Righteous qi is not able to out-thrust the evils 3. Yin qi is " quilted, " i.e., muffled, burns or is scorched, and is dried up In terms of general characteristics, Ding Lei, the author of the journal article, says diseases due to hidden evils are insidious in nature, relatively serious, transform patterns quite a lot, have a long course, and are difficult to cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 Bob, Very interesting about hidden evils. I am curious whether the author discusses treatments strategies that are unique to these hidden evils (in particular when the yin becomes " quilted " ) or rather is it a matter of treating what the patient presents with and adjusting to progressive changes in their condition. What I hear you saying is that there is often an underlying kidney vacuity in cases of pathogens (evils)becoming hidden, and that at some point in the treatment that has to be dealt with. This is interesting because I have recently been reading a book where the author claims that all warm diseases are in the context of underlying vacuity. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is agreement on this point historically. Some other questions; What character are you translating as " quilted " and what do you mean by this? When you say " Hidden storage " = fu zang, do you mean " cang2 " , which means storage which is the same character with a different pronunciation, or is this some other character? Lastly, just my opinion, although one can certainly make the case for using out-thrust as a translation for tou4 or da2, I don't think this prevents us from using proper English syntaxt when translating Chinese. in other words I think it is OK, for example to write, 2. Righteous qi is not able to THRUST OUT the evils. Michael P.S. could everyone do their best to remember to " thrust out " the text from those who you are responding to? For those of us who get the CHA as a daily bundle it would save A LOT of scrolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 Mazin, in reference to many chronic skin disorders was always referring to the herbs mu dan pi and ling xiao hua as being able to clear " hidden " heat from the blood. I am assuming this goes along with the same idea as hidden evils. Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 I also found this article very interesting and inspiring as well. I shared Bob's e-mail/translation with Michael Broffman of Pine Street Foundation. As it turned out Michael met the author of the article, Dr. Huang, on a trip to Beijing three years ago when Dr. Huang was preparing this study. According to Michael, there are hundreds of similar case reports in Chinese journals on the longitudinal cause and effect of long-term disease transmutations. It fits in very nicely with the Nan Jing's teachings of how to practically identify these issues in people and predict future diseases from patterns in their medical history. I believe that it is very important for this aspect of Chinese medicine to be taught more in the West so that practitioners can treat chronic long-term disorders more effectively, rather than just acute, short-term issues. It is one of the theories/methodologies that are the gems of the tradition. Z'ev Roenberg On Apr 15, 2008, at 6:53 PM, fitzms wrote: > > Bob, > > Very interesting about hidden evils. I am curious whether the author > discusses treatments strategies that are unique to these hidden evils > (in particular when the yin becomes " quilted " ) or rather is it a > matter of treating what the patient presents with and adjusting to > progressive changes in their condition. What I hear you saying is that > there is often an underlying kidney vacuity in cases of pathogens > (evils)becoming hidden, and that at some point in the treatment that > has to be dealt with. This is interesting because I have recently been > reading a book where the author claims that all warm diseases are in > the context of underlying vacuity. Unfortunately, I don't believe > there is agreement on this point historically. > > > > Michael > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Trevor, Can you tell me a brief summary of the properties, temp, flavors, channels and indications for ling xiao hua. I am not familiar with it and it is not included in the materia medicas that I have. Thanks, Yehuda Trevor Erikson <trevor_erikson wrote: Mazin, in reference to many chronic skin disorders was always referring to the herbs mu dan pi and ling xiao hua as being able to clear " hidden " heat from the blood. I am assuming this goes along with the same idea as hidden evils. Trevor Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Yehuda, Ling xiao hua is listed in the Eastland's MM III: PROPERTIES sweet, sour, slightly cold CHANNELS ENTERED Liver, Pericardium KEY CHARACTERISTICS expels lurking fire at the blood level, dispels stasis. I have used it many times premenstrually, to expel deep pathogens as well as relieve emotional constraint. It moves the blood but is light and good for sensitive people (that cannot tolerate strong movers.) IT is slightly stronger than mei gui hua. Hope that helps, -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:34 AM Re: Re: More on Hidden Evils Trevor, Can you tell me a brief summary of the properties, temp, flavors, channels and indications for ling xiao hua. I am not familiar with it and it is not included in the materia medicas that I have. Thanks, Yehuda Trevor Erikson <trevor_erikson@ <trevor_erikson%40.ca> .ca> wrote: Mazin, in reference to many chronic skin disorders was always referring to the herbs mu dan pi and ling xiao hua as being able to clear " hidden " heat from the blood. I am assuming this goes along with the same idea as hidden evils. Trevor Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Z'ev, If by " hundreds, " Michael means over the last 40 years, I might go along with that. But in my reading of the Chinese journal literature (12-15 journals per year, half of those different each year [in an effort to be representative], for the last 15 years), I would not say that this is a common kind of article at all. I'd like to know where Michael is finding " hundreds " of such. Not at all my experience. Bob , <zrosenbe wrote: > > I also found this article very interesting and inspiring as well. I > shared Bob's e-mail/translation with Michael Broffman of Pine Street > Foundation. As it turned out Michael met the author of the article, > Dr. Huang, on a trip to Beijing three years ago when Dr. Huang was > preparing this study. According to Michael, there are hundreds of > similar case reports in Chinese journals on the longitudinal cause > and effect of long-term disease transmutations. It fits in very > nicely with the Nan Jing's teachings of how to practically identify > these issues in people and predict future diseases from patterns in > their medical history. > > I believe that it is very important for this aspect of Chinese > medicine to be taught more in the West so that practitioners can treat > chronic long-term disorders more effectively, rather than just acute, > short-term issues. It is one of the theories/methodologies that are > the gems of the tradition. > > Z'ev Roenberg > On Apr 15, 2008, at 6:53 PM, fitzms wrote: > > > > > Bob, > > > > Very interesting about hidden evils. I am curious whether the author > > discusses treatments strategies that are unique to these hidden evils > > (in particular when the yin becomes " quilted " ) or rather is it a > > matter of treating what the patient presents with and adjusting to > > progressive changes in their condition. What I hear you saying is that > > there is often an underlying kidney vacuity in cases of pathogens > > (evils)becoming hidden, and that at some point in the treatment that > > has to be dealt with. This is interesting because I have recently been > > reading a book where the author claims that all warm diseases are in > > the context of underlying vacuity. Unfortunately, I don't believe > > there is agreement on this point historically. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 , " Trevor Erikson " <trevor_erikson wrote: > > Mazin, in reference to many chronic skin disorders was always > referring to the herbs mu dan pi and ling xiao hua as being able to > clear " hidden " heat from the blood. I am assuming this goes along with > the same idea as hidden evils. The ability of mu dan pi to clear " fu " heat in the blood is commonly referenced in the Chinese literature. This " fu " word here is often rendered in English as hidden, deep-lying, or latent. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 " I am curious whether the author discusses treatments strategies that are unique to these hidden evils. " Not really. No real specifics. " What I hear you saying is that there is often an underlying kidney vacuity in cases of pathogens evils)becoming hidden, and that at some point in the treatment that has to be dealt with. " No, the Chinese author clearly says that kidney vacuity is the result of hidden evils. " This is interesting because I have recently been reading a book where the author claims that all warm diseases are in the context of underlying vacuity. " This Chinese author says that hidden warm diseases are always a combination of (righteous) vacuity and repletion. " Some other questions; What character are you translating as " quilted " and what do you mean by this? " Quilted, bei3. Suggests smothered under something, as in smothered by a quilt. Unfortunately, Wiseman and Feng don't include this term in A Practical Dictionary. This term also conveys the idea of something being arrested. However, I like quilted because it conveys the idea of something being in the exterior of the body being smothered. " Quilted " for me immediately implies that the action is occurring in the defensive exterior of the body. " When you say " Hidden storage " = fu zang, do you mean " cang2 " " No, zang3. Same zang as in xi zang, Tibet. Sorry, I like out-thrust since it underscores (at least to me) that this is a technical term. I fully mean the reader to pause a moment and do a double-take. Bob P.S. Off to Europe this afternoon; so will not be back on this forum till after the 29th. Good luck and best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 I'll let you know as soon as he returns from Taiwan.. . . Z'ev On Apr 16, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: > Z'ev, > > If by " hundreds, " Michael means over the last 40 years, I might go > along with that. But in my reading of the Chinese journal literature > (12-15 journals per year, half of those different each year [in an > effort to be representative], for the last 15 years), I would not say > that this is a common kind of article at all. I'd like to know where > Michael is finding " hundreds " of such. Not at all my experience. > > Bob Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Hi Bob and all other contibutors on this subject My immediate reaction to this text on evil qi becoming depressed, not being thust out and Yin qi being " quilted " brings to mind an article by William Morris on the Cotton (ruo mai), deep, weak, floating and slow pulses, and poor lymph return with all which that entails- Spleen Xu, Kidney Yang Xu, Heart Qi & Yang Xu, Damp accumulation and even Yin Fire. Louis http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/IntegrativeMedicineandtheCottonPulse.htm , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Just reading an article on hidden evil warm diseases (fy xie wen bing) > in issue #1, 2008 of Bei Jing Zhong Yi Yao (Bejing & > Pharmacology). > > On the different types of hidden evils, quoting the Qing dynasty Wen > Re Feng Yuan (Penetrating Insight into Warm Heat) it says: " When one > contracts the six environmental excesses and these do not result in > [immediate] disease but [disease] occurs a long time later, these are > called hidden evils... Hidden evils are hidden dryness, hidden cold, > hidden wind, hidden dampness, [and] hidden heat. " So, according to > this book, at least five of the six environmental excesses can become > hidden evils. However, later in this article, it talks about > summerheat evils also becoming hidden evils when mixed with either > cold or dampness. > > According to the same book (Wen Re Feng Yuan), if " these [hidden > evils] damage (shang) a person, they lead to kidney qi vacuity. " > > " Hidden storage " (fu zang) is where the hidden evils are located or > stored in the body. This becomes clear when the author quotes various > books about hidden evils being stored (zang) in the skin, stored in > the bones, stored in the membranes, or stored in the bone marrow. > > According to the author of the Wen Re Feng Yuan, there are three > mechanisms whereby hidden evils can be produced: > > 1. Evil qi becomes depressed [and therefore] lies deeply (or hides) > and is not out-thrust > > 2. Righteous qi is not able to out-thrust the evils > > 3. Yin qi is " quilted, " i.e., muffled, burns or is scorched, and is > dried up > > In terms of general characteristics, Ding Lei, the author of the > journal article, says diseases due to hidden evils are insidious in > nature, relatively serious, transform patterns quite a lot, have a > long course, and are difficult to cure. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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