Is direct moxibustion justified on clinical grounds in ethical practice

[Guest guest]

Hi Lorraine, & All,

 

I wrote: >> Direct (scarring / suppurative) moxibustion does harm

(admittedly minor harm) in most cases. IMO, practitioners who

to the ethic of " First Do No Harm " , must question the use

direct moxibustion, or at least reserve its use to cases that have

not responded to gentler methods.

 

Lorraine replied:

> If the amount of harm caused by direct moxa was considered too

> excessive to be ethical, I am afraid Western medicine would be out of

> business ...

 

> ... It comes down to a question of dosage. If the dosage of

> moxibustion is insufficient, the treatment will not be very effective.

> Last weekend I went to a seminar in Berkeley on Japanese style direct

> moxibustion, taught by Junji Mizutani. It was fantastic! He almost

> always uses direct moxibustion, and does cause a minor burn, but it is

> almsot painless. You do not need to make a big sore to get results. You

> do not need to make a lot of pain. What you need is practice and skill.

> If you have confidence, most patients will accept it.

>

> ... I will take a moment for a little shameless self-promotion. My

> book, Moxibustion: the Power of Mugwort Fire will be available in May

> from Blue Poppy ... Phil, I hope you don't feel I am being

> argumentative. I am passionate, but you are welcome to disagree. I do

> not mean to challenge you, just to express a strong opinion. Lorraine

 

No problem, Lorraine, and congratulations on your forthcoming book.

 

I merely asked if one should reserve direct (scarring) moxa for cases

that do not respond to gentler (non-scarring) methods.

 

Others on the List, including yourself, seem to value direct moxa

over indirect methods.

 

Lorraine, can you (or others on the List) give examples where direct

moxa worked after expert indirect moxa (or expert acupuncture) had

failed?

 

Best regards,

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

I must admit, I am not the queen of the clinic :-) I worked for 12

years in a Western medicine clinic for low income people with HIV/AIDS.

Moxibustion was not allowed there. Eventually I got defunded. At that

time, I was working on my dissertation and later the book. I was too

busy so I did not find another place to practice for a while. I have

just started as a clinical supervisor in a school a few weeks ago. So

now I will get to try out a lot of the stuff I have been writing about.

 

Whatever treatment you choose, you need the appropriate dose. No point

in giving a half course of antibiotics or an herbal prescription that

is half the strength of what it should be. So if all the patient feels

is a tiny flash of heat for an instant, and in fact, if many patients

perceive it as pleasurable, where is the harm?

 

Perhaps in your mind you picture burns the size of a dime or perhaps

you have not seen what an experienced practitioner can do. It takes a

lot of practice, but moxa threads or half grain of rice size cones can

be quite comfortable. Usually, the first small cone is extinguished

when 80% down. The second cone is very small and the oxygen can be

choked off just in the right instant. After that, the patient won't

really feel the burn if the cones are small and skillfully done. But

the practitioner has to practice a lot on him/herself.

 

And if the higher dose gets better results, then don't we need to

consider it?

 

I know you are asking for studies or cases... there are many cases in

Mizutani Sensei's self-published book (John provided the URL, thanks

John). There are also many cases in Chinese books. Hopefully in the

future, I will have many of my own cases too.

 

Lorraine

 

Lorraine Wilcox Ph.D., L.Ac.

 

, " "

< wrote:

> I merely asked if one should reserve direct (scarring) moxa for cases

> that do not respond to gentler (non-scarring) methods.

>

> Others on the List, including yourself, seem to value direct moxa

> over indirect methods.

>

> Lorraine, can you (or others on the List) give examples where direct

> moxa worked after expert indirect moxa (or expert acupuncture) had

> failed?

[Guest guest]

I'm really glad we're having this conversation.

 

Lorraine, you did the research on moxibustion usage from ancient times...

Robert Johns told us in a class at ACTCM that Hua Tuo's wife? (or was it

someone else),

who used moxibustion so well that she could treat virtually every disease.

Can you verify this?...

Back in those days, it was only direct moxa.

 

My mom had a severe car accident with a chest impaction about 6 years ago.

She went to many physicians, who didn't help much for her chest pain.

She found a Korean doctor who did direct moxibustion with large cones;

not thread-size. He warned her that there would be scars for one year;

whereby they would disappear. He performed then on Huatuojia ji areas and

inner UB lines.

After a month, her pain was released. The scars did go away, like he said.

He moved back to Korea.

 

This goes back to the question about the difference between stick moxa and

direct moxa.

One of the Japanese practitioners in the Bay area says that stick moxa is

" fake " .

Radiant heat is curative only in the sense that it brings heat to the skin

surface.

Are you getting the " essence " of the moxa?

 

Also, I've heard that " Ai rong " burns at a high temperature, in infrared

frequency?

If so, is direct moxibustion going to create a more focused, intensified

stimulation, due to the denseness of the thread?

 

Lorraine and all, what makes " Ai rong (artemesia) " special?

Since it's used in so many northern hemisphere cultures around the world for

virtually the same thing... pain and warding off harmful spirits....

Is this the spiritual component?

If so, are we smudging the body and/or utilizing a infrared laser to bring

" light " to the caves ( " xue " points) ?

 

Have you ever tried doing stick moxa in the dark? You can see some

interesting things emanating from the moxa stick and reacting on the

patient's body. (might not be the safest thing, but worth a shot at least

once with a fellow physician as the guinea pig). When ash accumulates on

the tip, you lose the qi, so it needs to be bright red, like lava. You can

actually diagnose the body this way too, because the color on the skin

changes, depending on where you point your moxa laser. Let me know if this

is reproduce-able in your experiments.

 

Again, looking forward to Lorraine's book and your experiences.

K.

 

 

 

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:05 PM, xuankong <xuankong wrote:

 

> Hi Phil,

>

> I must admit, I am not the queen of the clinic :-) I worked for 12

> years in a Western medicine clinic for low income people with HIV/AIDS.

> Moxibustion was not allowed there. Eventually I got defunded. At that

> time, I was working on my dissertation and later the book. I was too

> busy so I did not find another place to practice for a while. I have

> just started as a clinical supervisor in a school a few weeks ago. So

> now I will get to try out a lot of the stuff I have been writing about.

>

> Whatever treatment you choose, you need the appropriate dose. No point

> in giving a half course of antibiotics or an herbal prescription that

> is half the strength of what it should be. So if all the patient feels

> is a tiny flash of heat for an instant, and in fact, if many patients

> perceive it as pleasurable, where is the harm?

>

> Perhaps in your mind you picture burns the size of a dime or perhaps

> you have not seen what an experienced practitioner can do. It takes a

> lot of practice, but moxa threads or half grain of rice size cones can

> be quite comfortable. Usually, the first small cone is extinguished

> when 80% down. The second cone is very small and the oxygen can be

> choked off just in the right instant. After that, the patient won't

> really feel the burn if the cones are small and skillfully done. But

> the practitioner has to practice a lot on him/herself.

>

> And if the higher dose gets better results, then don't we need to

> consider it?

>

> I know you are asking for studies or cases... there are many cases in

> Mizutani Sensei's self-published book (John provided the URL, thanks

> John). There are also many cases in Chinese books. Hopefully in the

> future, I will have many of my own cases too.

>

> Lorraine

>

> Lorraine Wilcox Ph.D., L.Ac.

>

> --- In

<%40>,

> " "

> < wrote:

> > I merely asked if one should reserve direct (scarring) moxa for cases

> > that do not respond to gentler (non-scarring) methods.

> >

> > Others on the List, including yourself, seem to value direct moxa

> > over indirect methods.

> >

> > Lorraine, can you (or others on the List) give examples where direct

> > moxa worked after expert indirect moxa (or expert acupuncture) had

> > failed?

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

aka Mu bong Lim

Father of Bhakti

 

The Four Reliances:

Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching.

As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the

meaning that underlies them.

Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but

rely upon the definitive meaning.

And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary

consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When I studied with Mizutani Sensei he taught primarily non-scarring direct

moxa. Seems like most of this conversation relates to that style, which is

not what Phil's original comment stated. He asked about scarring moxa. To

set the record straight here, are we saying " blistering " and " scarring " are

the same thing? A blister encourages histoxin release, scarring is not

necessary to achieve that end. The blisters from a Mizutani treatment are

often rather unassuming, though for some conditions they can resemble a more

aggressive TCM direct moxa effect.

 

Something else that's important here; Sensei trains his patients to treat

themselves at home. Part of the strength of moxa is the ability to treat

daily. Outcomes are less dependable with less treatment frequency. At the

very least, they take much longer.

 

I myself have a love hate relationship with moxa. It is very time

consuming, and it definitely pollutes the air of my clinic. Smoke, even

from 1/2 rice grain sized moxa can travel through ceiling tiles and affect

other building tenants. I had a lawyer next door get nauseous one day while

I was doing direct 1/2 rice grain moxa on several patients in a row. He was

unaware that I was using moxa.

 

Tim Sharpe

[Guest guest]

Hi Tim.

'Sensei trains his patients to treat themselves at home.'

Yes.that is really important. People I see cannot afford to come every 4 days.

It is easy to teach them to fill their navel (their belly-button, the first

injury) with salt, and put a perforated ginger slice over the salt and burn

twisted cones of old moxa fur for a while, till they feel relaxed , and their

middle is recognized, nurtured. The whole being is helped. Women especially

benefit often. But self treatment with moxa, or more-so with needles, seems to

be a luxury for most these days, so I give or sell the stick-on moxa. That's a

great product. Not as communal, but still great.

 

'Smoke, even from 1/2 rice grain sized moxa can travel through ceiling tiles

and affect other building tenants. I had a lawyer next door get nauseous one

day while

I was doing direct 1/2 rice grain moxa on several patients in a row.'

I've had situations also where someone complained about the odor of moxa, for

example in a clinic where in the next room, a chemically sensitive person was

getting massaged, and the smell bothered them. 20 or more years ago, this was

less of a problem. Now, humans get hyper-aware sensorially, to any blip in

their space. I think it has more to do with the mind, than the simple scent of

moxa. It's too bad, you kids have it harder, sorry.

 

 

 

 

Tim Sharpe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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