Tom Verhaege throws a great party

[Guest guest]

Just wanted to share that Tom Verheage and his Belgian CM organization

threw an excellent two-day seminar for me outside of Antwerp last

week, including three-course meals served with choice of red or white

wine. So great job Tom! If this is an indication of how together your

group is, it's a good one.

 

Thanks.

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Just wanted to share that Tom Verheage and his Belgian CM organization

> threw an excellent two-day seminar for me outside of Antwerp last

> week, including three-course meals served with choice of red or white

> wine. So great job Tom! If this is an indication of how together your

> group is, it's a good one.

 

I missed Tom´s seminar, but I just had the pleasure of meeting him for

the first time in Germany a few days ago. Certainly I would raise a

glass with you if we are toasting to Tom, and I don´t doubt that his

seminars are organized fantastically. Thanks for sharing, it´s good to

know that seminars with such rave reviews are happening in great places

around the world.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Just wanted to share that Tom Verheage and his Belgian CM organization

> threw an excellent two-day seminar for me outside of Antwerp last

> week, including three-course meals served with choice of red or white

> wine. So great job Tom! If this is an indication of how together your

> group is, it's a good one.

>

> Thanks.

>

Well thanks, Bob. We wanted to make sure that you and Honora had a

good time during your stay in Belgium.

 

The CM organization that I'm part of (EUFOM) got a very positive (88%)

evaluation of the gynecology seminar.

 

It was nice getting to know you and Honora better- please send her my

regards,

 

Tom.

[Guest guest]

Tom,

 

Sorry the evaluation wasn't better than 88%. I take that as less than

a stellar performance, and, for me, teaching is definitely theater. I

was in pretty bad physical pain throughout the class. So not on top of

my game. Also, I had real difficulty with the reticence of the group.

If they wanted me to read information from a book, then they should

know I'm constitutionally not capable of doing that. The only way I

know how to teach is interactively. If people are not ready,

willing,and able to interact (because of language barriers, cultural

and/or personal styles, etc.), then they're not going to get what I am

capable of giving.

 

Hey, but Bruge was great. Thanks for the sauce recommendation for the

fritten. The combo of the two sauces was wonderful.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Glad you brought this up. While I doubt I'd rate even that high

in one of my own seminars, I have the same problem both in some of my

PCOM classes and outside seminars, a lack of interactivity from the

students or practitioners who are too used to having their information

spoon fed to them. This leads to an inability to think in terms of

Chinese medicine or be creative with material. It seems everyone

wants point or herbal protocols, rather than learning how to use,

refine and access information and theory.

 

 

On May 5, 2008, at 8:39 AM, Bob Flaws wrote:

 

> Tom,

>

> Sorry the evaluation wasn't better than 88%. I take that as less than

> a stellar performance, and, for me, teaching is definitely theater. I

> was in pretty bad physical pain throughout the class. So not on top of

> my game. Also, I had real difficulty with the reticence of the group.

> If they wanted me to read information from a book, then they should

> know I'm constitutionally not capable of doing that. The only way I

> know how to teach is interactively. If people are not ready,

> willing,and able to interact (because of language barriers, cultural

> and/or personal styles, etc.), then they're not going to get what I am

> capable of giving.

>

> Hey, but Bruge was great. Thanks for the sauce recommendation for the

> fritten. The combo of the two sauces was wonderful.

>

> Bob

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Regarding being spoon-fed TCM protocols...

 

1. In Asia, the teacher is less likely to be questioned in a classroom

situation. The cultural expectation of proper student behavior is to sit

down, be quiet, and just take notes. As an example, some Chinese teachers

new to the US are offended by a student asking questions during a lecture.

It is rare nowadays, but it shows up now and then.

2. I also get that in Asia, there is value placed on age and

experience such that it serves their TCM educational system to remain

somewhat opaque as to the specifics of any particular issue. At best, we get

an outline, basic formula or point prescription, and it is up to the

practitioner to connect the dots and apply them to the patient. A good

example of this is how herb dosages are provided as a range, while it is up

to the individual practitioner to decide on dosages based on the needs of

the specific patient and the functional requirement of the herb. Herb

dosages are not defined for this reason (in books about individual herbs).

 

 

I'm not arguing on behalf of passive students in a seminar, I like questions

and an on-going conversation too, but I'm wondering if there is value in

taking notes as best one can, and then going out and finding out for one's

self how things work out in the patient population. As one of my TCM elders

says: " the patient is the teacher " .

 

I'm especially interested in point #2, because there are those who favor the

more standardized biomedical-style " standards of care " type approach to TCM.

My issue with this approach is that it is limited to biomedical conventional

wisdom because it researches well. Channels become nerves and blood vessels,

etc. But there is the potential with this approach for trashing anything

that doesn't make sense from the existing biomedical paradigm. This is a big

problem, something akin to losing the Amazon rain forest before finding all

the cures available there and known only to the local healers who of course

have absolutely no biomedical understanding.

 

The more time that I spend with TCM, the deeper and more particular I find

its applications. I couldn't see this fresh out of school and G.d knows that

I'm still only seeing with one eye. I just wonder if Western culture is

ready to accept this whole premise of age and experience as a prerequisite

to evolving TCM into the West.

 

-al.

 

 

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:34 AM, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

> Bob,

> Glad you brought this up. While I doubt I'd rate even that high

> in one of my own seminars, I have the same problem both in some of my

> PCOM classes and outside seminars, a lack of interactivity from the

> students or practitioners who are too used to having their information

> spoon fed to them. This leads to an inability to think in terms of

> Chinese medicine or be creative with material. It seems everyone

> wants point or herbal protocols, rather than learning how to use,

> refine and access information and theory.

>

>

>

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

While this can always be a problem, in Europe it tends to be even

worse. At many venues, the participants really do want and expect you

to read a list of points and formulas with dosages. They seem to still

use the notion of the " talking head. " I knew I was in trouble when I

walking into the venue and saw the way it was set up. There was a very

formal podium with a microphone on one side and then a dias with a

chair and microphone on the other, neither of which are my style. In

Europe, teachers really are the professors and are expected to dress,

speak, and act more formally than we are used to here. That being

said, I was able to use PBLs the weekend before in York and the

weekend after in Galway, and the participants in those two classes

really seemed to enjoy that approach. So my problems in Belgium may

have been mostly about language. That and, according to Tom, the

Belgians tend to be very conservative and subdued as a group.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

In China, there are two educational systems -- one of which is obvious

and " external " and the other of which is not obvious and is somewhat

hidden to the Western observer. What I mean is that, in China, on top

of going to classes along with everyone else (and, therefore, getting

what everyone else is getting), many Chinese students apprentice

themselves to one of their teachers or other senior practitioner.

Typically, the student must be introduced by a third party who acts as

a reference for the student, and getting such an introduction may be

highly competitive and hard to accomplish. Then the student undergoes

a probationary trial period. This includes studying CM with the

teacher but also doing chores for the teacher, running errands, etc.

If the student passes those tests, including moral tests, perhaps even

over years, then they are formally taken by the teacher as a disciple

and their name is added to the role of that teacher's disciples. (This

tends to be all very formal, and there may even be vows taken when the

student goes from student to disciple.) The father-teacher (shi-fu)

then imparts their own special insight into the medicine to the

disciple (tu-er, student-child) as well as shepherds the disciple

through their career, opening doors for him or her and generally

running interference. In addition, the disciple enters the community

of the master's other disciples who may also help in the disciples

education and professional development. So this mentoring process can

last an entire lifetime and include a whole " inner " community.

 

Unfortunately, we in the West tend to only have access to the outer

method of CM education -- the CM school or college with its standard

courses and curriculum and its talking heads. But, in my experience,

it is the inner method where real insights into practice (gathered

over the master's entire lifetime and even that of an entire lineage

spanning centuries) are conveyed. Then, add to that the huge

difference in clinical education at CM colleges in the PRC and you can

see how you could get a very different outcome than here in the U.S.

 

As for standards of care, the standard of care in standard

professional CM is the individually written, individually dosed,

polypharmacy formula. So I think your fear about SOCs vis a vis

treatment is unfounded. If someone is promoting a one-size-fits-all

prescriptive methodology, that is simply mediocre CM. It is not a

problem with the idea of SOCs per se.

 

As for age and experience, it's not for nothing that one calls a

really good Chinese doctor a lao (zhong) yi sheng, an old (Chinese)

doctor. It takes time for the wine to mature, and there's no way to

get around that. At 30, that was not something I wanted to hear. At

60+, that is something I take for granted.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob, actually we were really pleased with the feedback we got. There's

always people that disagree. I'd venture to say that the best students

got the most out of your class. Every word was carefully chosen and

there was a lot of detail in the things that you presented.

 

My mentor and colleague Johan Roose calls the students that want to be

spoonfed " McDonalds students " : they want the knowledge here and now,

and want to squeeze all that experience out of you in their limited

time with the teacher.

 

The Chinese way of learning is at the other extreme of course. In the

end, I think humility (as Confucius often argued) is the most

important trait of the 'true' learner.

 

Best,

 

Tom.

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Z'ev,

>

> While this can always be a problem, in Europe it tends to be even

> worse. At many venues, the participants really do want and expect you

> to read a list of points and formulas with dosages. They seem to still

> use the notion of the " talking head. " I knew I was in trouble when I

> walking into the venue and saw the way it was set up. There was a very

> formal podium with a microphone on one side and then a dias with a

> chair and microphone on the other, neither of which are my style. In

> Europe, teachers really are the professors and are expected to dress,

> speak, and act more formally than we are used to here. That being

> said, I was able to use PBLs the weekend before in York and the

> weekend after in Galway, and the participants in those two classes

> really seemed to enjoy that approach. So my problems in Belgium may

> have been mostly about language. That and, according to Tom, the

> Belgians tend to be very conservative and subdued as a group.

>

> Bob

>