Granulars

[Guest guest]

at the time i tested all the taiwanese companies sold i US, and may

way. Basically what it showed is that all the tests were similar as

far as ing peaks, it also showed that they had stuff such a citric

acid for one company and i forget what else for others, which were not

on the label.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Trevor,

>

> " Now if Mazin is using technology and quality similar or better than

> the granule companies, how can the granule companies claim that we can

> use smaller doses per day?? It just does not make sense.

 

Actually, there is a big difference between the technology used in a

home extraction machine from the ones used by granule companies.

Large granule companies produce upwards of 100,000 bottles per day,

most of which is consumed in the domestic market. They have a much

more efficient ability to capture essential oils and control the

temperature and conditions.

 

From your description, I'm guessing that Mazin is using a Korean (or

Chinese) extraction machine. These are made in glass, ceramic, and

steel, with the basic steel pressure-cooker w/ press model being the

most common. The herbs are decocted in a giant cloth tea bag in a

sealed pressure cooker, and are then pumped into a packaging machine

that seals the decoction in resilient single-dose plastic pouches.

This is the most common home/office extraction unit, and they are very

popular in the Korean community. Originally a Korean invention, they

have now spread to China. China makes copycat machines and many

Chinese hospitals and pharmacies use them. I own one myself and I

love it.

 

The extraction machines allow one to conveniently produce and package

strong extracts, but they have a few challenges that don't exist for

the larger machines that granule companies use. While the temperature

can be controlled relatively precisely and low-temperature extraction

is possible, the packaging method of putting hot decoction in a vacuum

pouch functions best when the decoction is at a high temperature.

 

Typically, people heat the decoction up to 120 C at the end of the

decoction cycle. This allows pressure to build up in the sealed

decoction chamber, which in turn allows the decoction to be

effortlessly pumped into the packaging machine. The high temperature

and pressure also makes the extract stronger and more complete, and

makes the decoction more sterile for its future storage. However, the

high temperature that can be achieved with pressure is higher than the

usual 100 C max boiling temperature of water, so in this way we are

introducing a variable that didn't occur with traditional decoctions,

and doesn't occur with granules.

 

The other main difference is that when the decoction chamber is opened

and the liquid is pumped into the packaging machine, a great blast of

steam escapes, and with it a significant portion of volatile oils.

This loss can be mitigated to a certain extent by decocting the

aromatic stuff (or the other " hou xia, " added at the end medicinals)

separately on the stove for a short time, and then pouring it straight

into the packing machine with the main decoction. The loss can also

be reduced by letting the decoction cook at a low temp, then letting

it cool and draining it from the cooker without pressure. However,

here there is a time delay, and the cold decoction may not have the

same level of hygiene for vacuum storage.

 

Anyway, decoction machines are still great, but you should know that

these factors must be taken into account when using them.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

What about plastic residue entering the extract, especially if it is packed

with fluid still warm?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I've often wondered about that myself. I've been less than

enthusiastic about pouring hot boiling herb decoctions into plastic

sacs.

 

 

On May 31, 2008, at 12:52 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> What about plastic residue entering the extract, especially if it is

> packed with fluid still warm?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> What about plastic residue entering the extract, especially if it

is packed with fluid still warm?

 

It is a special type of plastic that is designed to handle the high

temperatures.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Alon, Eric, and group,

 

 

 

 

 

I was under the impression that pretty much any " soft " plastic is going to

have issues (i.e. phthalates and others see below), which will leech into

liquids, especially if introduced while hot. I would be surprised if this

type of bag was any exception, particularly because phthalates are what is

added to plastic (usually PVC) to make it flexible. At one point I think

this was debatable (years ago), but mainstream news has exposed this issue

and shown its wide ranging health effects.

 

 

 

PVC's (the most widely used plastic) of course has many other additional

health-related problems besides the phthalates that are usually added). Even

the once thought safe Nalgene Lexan (hard plastic) has become quite

controversial. They are made from polycarbonates. Because of the many

concerns a large number of people in Boulder are no longer using Nalgenes

(they are using metal bottles). Here is a quick excerpt on polycarbonates:

 

 

 

" Although polycarbonate does not contain phthalates, according to the

journal Environmental Health Perspectives, bottles made of polycarbonate can

leach the chemical bisphenol A when heated, washed, or exposed to acidic

foods. Bisphenol A (BPA) was identified in 81 of 115 published animal

studies to have harmful effects such as early onset of puberty, changes in

hormones, increased prostate size, decreased sperm production, and breast

tissue changes in mice that resemble early states of breast cancer in mice

and humans. One study of BPA in humans found that women with a history of

recurrent miscarriages had three times the levels of BPA in their blood

compared to women without a miscarriage history. "

 

 

 

So I would like to know what material these bags are made out of that avoids

leeching? What " special plastic " are we talking about?

 

 

 

I personally think all plastic presents health risks (especially anything

soft, like a bag) and especially when exposed to heat. The question is does

it outweigh the benefit of convenience. IMHO, it does not.

 

 

 

My 2 cents,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Eric Brand

Monday, June 02, 2008 10:09 AM

 

Re: Granulars

 

 

 

@ <%40>

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> What about plastic residue entering the extract, especially if it

is packed with fluid still warm?

 

It is a special type of plastic that is designed to handle the high

temperatures.

 

Eric

 

 

 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 3153 (20080602) __________

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That's one of the reasons I never bought one of those machines. I

spoke with a Korean friend who has one, and she said it is possible to

put a glass bottle in the place where the plastic bag goes. Don't know

if that would still be sterile, though.

 

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> Alon, Eric, and group,

>

>

>

>

>

> I was under the impression that pretty much any " soft " plastic is

going to

> have issues (i.e. phthalates and others see below), which will leech

into

> liquids, especially if introduced while hot. I would be surprised if

this

> type of bag was any exception, particularly because phthalates are

what is

> added to plastic (usually PVC) to make it flexible. At one point I think

> this was debatable (years ago), but mainstream news has exposed this

issue

> and shown its wide ranging health effects.

>

>

>

> PVC's (the most widely used plastic) of course has many other additional

> health-related problems besides the phthalates that are usually

added). Even

> the once thought safe Nalgene Lexan (hard plastic) has become quite

> controversial. They are made from polycarbonates. Because of the many

> concerns a large number of people in Boulder are no longer using

Nalgenes

> (they are using metal bottles). Here is a quick excerpt on

polycarbonates:

>

>

>

> " Although polycarbonate does not contain phthalates, according to the

> journal Environmental Health Perspectives, bottles made of

polycarbonate can

> leach the chemical bisphenol A when heated, washed, or exposed to acidic

> foods. Bisphenol A (BPA) was identified in 81 of 115 published animal

> studies to have harmful effects such as early onset of puberty,

changes in

> hormones, increased prostate size, decreased sperm production, and

breast

> tissue changes in mice that resemble early states of breast cancer

in mice

> and humans. One study of BPA in humans found that women with a

history of

> recurrent miscarriages had three times the levels of BPA in their blood

> compared to women without a miscarriage history. "

>

>

>

> So I would like to know what material these bags are made out of

that avoids

> leeching? What " special plastic " are we talking about?

>

>

>

> I personally think all plastic presents health risks (especially

anything

> soft, like a bag) and especially when exposed to heat. The question

is does

> it outweigh the benefit of convenience. IMHO, it does not.

>

>

>

> My 2 cents,

>

>

>

> -

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> That's one of the reasons I never bought one of those machines. I

> spoke with a Korean friend who has one, and she said it is possible to

> put a glass bottle in the place where the plastic bag goes. Don't know

> if that would still be sterile, though.

 

Sure, you can put the liquid into glass bottles or any container you

like, but only the plastic pouches let you easily do a low tech vacuum

seal. The pouches typically used are called retort pouches, they are

made of something called PET+CLP. Not being a plastics engineer, I

have no sophisticated knowledge of what that means. However, these

machines are used by an entire generation of practitioners in China

and Korea, and it is obvious from the flavor of the tea that there is

no noticeable taste from the plastic (unlike Nalgene bottles or any

common grocery store water bottle).

 

The bag is specially designed to pack 120 degrees C liquid, and if

memory serves, it is supposed to be fine up to 160 C. Given the

fastidious nature of Korean culture as regards quality and purity of

medicine (as well as technology), I have a hard time believing that

they have completely missed the boat and failed to think of a solution

for this issue. There are super expensive machines made out of ceramic

and glass just for purists who don't want to decoct in stainless

steel, I'm sure that if the plastic was leaching in every pouch then

the problem would be sorted out. We at CHA are obviously not the

first to raise this issue, and the companies that successfully

pioneered a technology that swept the entire Korean market must have

realized that a solution to plastic leaching was the #1 thing to

achieve before they could launch their products. And even if there is

a small amount of leaching that reveals no taste or changes

whatsoever, I'm sure that the trivial amount of plastics they get from

their batches of herbs is negligible compared to whatever they get

from the cheap water bottles that they routinely use every day.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Eric,

 

 

 

I know that PET = polyethylene, but what is CLP? I cannot find it on the

web. Although the safety of Polyethylene has been questioned by many, more

important is what they add to the plastic to make it soft, a bag. Maybe this

is the CLP? The softer it is the more problematic.

 

 

 

However, just because China or Korea uses a product does not make it safe.

As anyone that has been to Asia knows they are far behind the curve when it

comes to understanding health risks of the environment and things that enter

the body (heavy metal, plastics, etc). Even mainstream America was

completely clueless, until very recently, that microwaving their plastic

food containers was a health risk. The awareness of plastics influence on

humans is really a new phenomenon, and I think that the western world has

the best handle on it.

 

 

 

Companies have agendas, to sell, and will let things pass through as long as

regulatory committees allow them. As we know regulatory agencies in Asia and

the west are far behind the curve. I wills stick my statement I do not think

that any plastic is safe, especially when it is soft and a heated substance

is put into it.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Eric Brand

Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:44 PM

 

Re: Granulars

 

 

 

@ <%40>

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> That's one of the reasons I never bought one of those machines. I

> spoke with a Korean friend who has one, and she said it is possible to

> put a glass bottle in the place where the plastic bag goes. Don't know

> if that would still be sterile, though.

 

Sure, you can put the liquid into glass bottles or any container you

like, but only the plastic pouches let you easily do a low tech vacuum

seal. The pouches typically used are called retort pouches, they are

made of something called PET+CLP. Not being a plastics engineer, I

have no sophisticated knowledge of what that means. However, these

machines are used by an entire generation of practitioners in China

and Korea, and it is obvious from the flavor of the tea that there is

no noticeable taste from the plastic (unlike Nalgene bottles or any

common grocery store water bottle).

 

The bag is specially designed to pack 120 degrees C liquid, and if

memory serves, it is supposed to be fine up to 160 C. Given the

fastidious nature of Korean culture as regards quality and purity of

medicine (as well as technology), I have a hard time believing that

they have completely missed the boat and failed to think of a solution

for this issue. There are super expensive machines made out of ceramic

and glass just for purists who don't want to decoct in stainless

steel, I'm sure that if the plastic was leaching in every pouch then

the problem would be sorted out. We at CHA are obviously not the

first to raise this issue, and the companies that successfully

pioneered a technology that swept the entire Korean market must have

realized that a solution to plastic leaching was the #1 thing to

achieve before they could launch their products. And even if there is

a small amount of leaching that reveals no taste or changes

whatsoever, I'm sure that the trivial amount of plastics they get from

their batches of herbs is negligible compared to whatever they get

from the cheap water bottles that they routinely use every day.

 

Eric

 

 

 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 3156 (20080603) __________

 

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

 

http://www.eset.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> However, just because China or Korea uses a product does not make it

safe.

> As anyone that has been to Asia knows they are far behind the curve

when it

> comes to understanding health risks of the environment and things

that enter

> the body (heavy metal, plastics, etc).

 

Like I said before, I'm not a plastics engineer. It may be imperfect

to use plastics in the many ways that we use them in the modern world,

but it is convenient, and the main reason we are using things like the

extraction machine in the first place is because people are too busy

to cook the herbs themselves. The people that can't even cook their

own herbs are typically also drinking out of water bottles and using

all manners of other plastics, and I think the impact is minimal

compared to a million other variables in their modern lifestyle.

Despite the fact that I don't know much about plastics technology, I

do know that one can taste plastic that leaches, whether it is cheap

plastic with hot liquid or dense plastic with room temp liquid like a

Nalgene bottle. There is no plastic taste with the Korean packages,

so presumably it has much lower impact that Nalgene bottles and the

like.

 

Have you ever used these pouches? Have you ever tried to lift a box

of the plastic rolls that are used by the packing machine to create

the pouches? They are incredibly heavy and durable. You can stand on

a full pouch and it won't break, and the raw material weighs a ton.

Certainly it can't be that soft of a plastic.

 

Most importantly, I wouldn't be so quick to lump Korea and China

together in a discussion of environmental/scientific quality control.

Much of the world's plastic engineering comes from Asia, and Korea

and Japan are far ahead of the West in many issues of technology.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

When I was given a tour of the herb facilities in 2002 at the 1st

Beijing TCM hospital, the probably 30 pouching machines were referred

to as the Korean machines and if I remember correctly, all made in Korea.

Doug

 

 

, " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus wrote:

>

> Most importantly, I wouldn't be so quick to lump Korea and China

> together in a discussion of environmental/scientific quality control.

> Much of the world's plastic engineering comes from Asia, and Korea

> and Japan are far ahead of the West in many issues of technology.

>

> Eric

>

[Guest guest]

Eric and group,

 

 

 

I appreciate the clarification, although I still am a bit leery. As you, I

am also not a plastics engineer, although about 1 year ago I did do a bunch

of research on the topic. If there is some *new* technology I would love to

hear about it. However, without knowing what exactly these " bags " are made

of it is hard to discuss the details. What is CLP?

 

 

 

1) As far as I know any " bag " is considered soft plastic and hence is

problematic when heated material is introduced. Taste is not always the

deciding factor. Furthermore, herbs will hide most tastes. I am pretty sure

that the material you describe is considered a soft plastic (because it

bends) and there is a good chance it contains phthalates. Does anyone have

contrary information?

 

 

 

2) China was only mentioned because you said that " these machines are used

by an entire generation of practitioners in China and Korea, " (implying that

it must be safe). As stated this means nothing to me. Our government still

allows certain plastics that most of Europe has banned. China, well, no

debate here. Korea is selling a product. However, I do agree there are

differences between Korea and China (and Japan), but that is a different

issue.

 

 

 

Furthermore, plastic bag technology, as far as I know, is pretty standard. I

would be surprised if Korea had developed some special bag that no else has,

and that is not discussed in the literature.

 

 

 

I will acknowledge that many debate if plastics are actually harmful. I will

choose to error on the safe side, especially when it comes to our already

sick patients. Most already have enough other environmental toxins in their

body and IMO, every additional insult only compounds their overall health

problems.

 

 

 

Just because they do other things to harm themselves (eat from microwaved

plastics, drink impure water) does not mean it is okay for them to add one

more problem. It is our clinic's experience that people have heavy loads of

all sorts of toxins (and this is in Boulder, Co). Adding or eliminating even

a couple extra such insults can make a huge difference in their health.

 

 

 

Should we all just microwave our foods in plastic, because the exposure is

minimal? I really think we all need to be way more aware of what is

happening with pesticides, heavy metals, plastics, pollution etc. CM is

behind the curve when addressing these issues, primarily because it is not

really on China's radar. I am curious how many people deal with these issues

in their clinic?

 

 

 

Of course if it is a choice of taking herbs and not, then by all means let

them drink them from a bag. However, I do not use any plastic bags, and all

my patients take herbs (most are extremely busy). There are other options,

especially to those that are educated to be health conscience. I don't even

think my patients would consider getting herbs in a bag, because of the

level of education here in Boulder. But, hey the verdict is still out.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

Eric <smilinglotus Brand

 

Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:08 AM

 

 

 

Re: Granulars

 

 

 

@

, " "

wrote:

> However, just because China or Korea uses a product does not make it

safe.

> As anyone that has been to Asia knows they are far behind the curve

when it

> comes to understanding health risks of the environment and things

that enter

> the body (heavy metal, plastics, etc).

 

Like I said before, I'm not a plastics engineer. It may be imperfect

to use plastics in the many ways that we use them in the modern world,

but it is convenient, and the main reason we are using things like the

extraction machine in the first place is because people are too busy

to cook the herbs themselves. The people that can't even cook their

own herbs are typically also drinking out of water bottles and using

all manners of other plastics, and I think the impact is minimal

compared to a million other variables in their modern lifestyle.

Despite the fact that I don't know much about plastics technology, I

do know that one can taste plastic that leaches, whether it is cheap

plastic with hot liquid or dense plastic with room temp liquid like a

Nalgene bottle. There is no plastic taste with the Korean packages,

so presumably it has much lower impact that Nalgene bottles and the

like.

 

Have you ever used these pouches? Have you ever tried to lift a box

of the plastic rolls that are used by the packing machine to create

the pouches? They are incredibly heavy and durable. You can stand on

a full pouch and it won't break, and the raw material weighs a ton.

Certainly it can't be that soft of a plastic.

 

Most importantly, I wouldn't be so quick to lump Korea and China

together in a discussion of environmental/scientific quality control.

Much of the world's plastic engineering comes from Asia, and Korea

and Japan are far ahead of the West in many issues of technology.

 

Eric

 

__.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Eric

you will not be able to taste the plastic in herbal the formula

because of the strong taste and smell of the herbs.

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Below is a post I made to a Vitamix users group. I own a vitamix, but use

it infrequently b/c the container is polycarbonate. I talk mostly about

BPA, though there are many potential plasticizer contaminants that can leach

into foodstuffs pending the type of plastic used.

 

 

 

FTR, the arguments for the use of plastics both by industry, and by members

of this group are flimsy at best, shameful and negligent at worst. There is

evidence of harm - without question. Read the research as I have and you

will come to the same conclusion. It's an economic and political issue at

this point, not a scientific one. Having worked for over two years in an

integrative clinic that does a lot of environmental medicine, we've found

that it's an aggregation of little things that often knocks people out

(heavy metals, environmental toxins, sensitivities to food and environment,

etc). First do no harm is a bit of a joke in western medicine, it would be

a shame if the same were true for us as well.

 

 

 

My post to the Vitamix group follows below:

 

 

 

 

 

Bisphenol A (BPA) leeching into food (PLEASE READ)

 

Posted by: " Tim Sharpe "

 

Tue Jan 9, 2007 7:30 am (PST)

 

 

 

Some of you may be aware that plastics can leech into foodstuffs

 

causing disruption of hormones. Polycarbonate plastic is known to

 

leach Bisphenol A (BPA). I've read this many places, most recently in

 

an Andrew Weil Self Healing newsletter as well as online at:

 

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA400068. There have been a few

 

studies to debunk this concept, but wouldn't you know - the research

 

that disproves the BPA connection is almost ALWAYS industry funded.

 

See here for verification:

 

http://tinyurl.com/y27nsn

 

 

 

Here's a quote:

 

" chemical manufacturers continue to discount these published findings

 

because no industry-funded studies have reported significant effects

 

of low doses of BPA, although > 90% of government-funded studies have

 

reported significant effects. Some industry-funded studies have

 

ignored the results of positive controls, and many studies reporting

 

no significant effects used a strain of rat that is inappropriate for

 

the study of estrogenic responses. "

 

 

 

I've provided a few other resources below. Please note, I have a

 

Vitamix that I use daily. I myself am trying to come to grip with

 

this research. I was first made fully aware of it by one of my

 

teachers in grad school Dr Lindsey Berkson, author of " Hormone

 

Deception " http://tinyurl.com/yxy7nk

 

 

 

Here is a link with a lot of references to BPA

 

http://tinyurl.com/94umc

 

 

 

from the BPA Wiki:

 

" One point of agreement among those studying polycarbonate water and

 

food storage containers may be that using sodium hypochlorite bleach

 

and other alkali cleaners to clean polycarbonate is not recommended,

 

as they catalyze the release of the Bisphenol-A. The tendency of

 

polycarbonate to release bisphenol A was discovered after a lab tech

 

used strong cleaners on polycarbonate lab containers. Endocrine

 

disruption later observed on lab rats was traced to exposure from the

 

cleaned containers. "

 

 

 

However heat triggers the release of BPA as well.

 

http://tinyurl.com/uqce2

 

 

 

" perhaps the most important but most easily overlooked aspect of

 

BPA-polycarbonate stability is its vulnerability to reaction with

 

water . . . both during melt processing and in end-use applications

 

involving exposure to water at elevated temperatures "

 

 

 

The same study found age causes leaching too:

 

" Our results support the findings of Takao et al. (1999), who reported

 

an increased rate of leaching from polycarbonate plastic with age. "

 

They go on to say that

 

 

 

OK, that's all. I hope I've established that the science disproving

 

the association of BPA to health hazards is industry funded, and that

 

it is something that we need to think about. I encourage comments,

 

but please post your sources if you are presenting evidence one way or

 

the other.

 

 

 

-Tim Sharpe

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What's probably worse is how the herbs are warmed up using a

microwave. I believe microwaves destroy a lot of the qi in fluids and

foods. Alas, there's a microwave on every ward at some of the

hospitals i visited in Beijing. Go figure...

 

Attilio

 

 

,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I've often wondered about that myself. I've been less than

> enthusiastic about pouring hot boiling herb decoctions into plastic

> sacs.

>

>

> On May 31, 2008, at 12:52 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> > What about plastic residue entering the extract, especially if it is

> > packed with fluid still warm?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I tell patients that if they must use a microwave, microwave the water, and

add that to the herbs. If it's a batch of already cooked raw herbs then

they just add the water to the refrigerated liquid to " take the chill off " .

I myself use an all stainless steel electric tea kettle to quickly heat

water. They're only about $35US from Amazon.

 

Tim Sharpe

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:54 AM

 

Re: Granulars

 

What's probably worse is how the herbs are warmed up using a

microwave. I believe microwaves destroy a lot of the qi in fluids and

foods. Alas, there's a microwave on every ward at some of the

hospitals i visited in Beijing. Go figure...

 

Attilio

[Guest guest]

What is your evidence that microwaves do anything deleterious to the qi?

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Not trying to start a very long winded fight here but, what is your

evidence for qi? The previous post was specific in the sense that the

poster said he " believed " it damaged the qi. It strikes me as a bit

disingenuous to ask for evidence of a belief for a belief. I'd be

interested in his speculations but there are no facts to be had on

either side of that equation. No facts (based on western scientific

method, which is what you seem to be inferring in this instance) that

I am aware of unless you can provide some citations for the phenomena

of what we call qi (other than the subjective sensation of needling).

I can appreciate the question but the formulation seems skewed. Here

is a link to a well written article about Microwave cooking which may

engender an informed conversation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_cooking Interestingly a quick

search of pub med for the terms microwave and cooking yield only 328

citations. In a quick scan of a random sampling of them there are many

that cite nutrient content/variability from various cooking methods.

Given the way microwaves work vs. traditional cooking methods there

may be some arguments around formula potency one way or the other. If

what you are asking is indeed a question based on western scientific

method then some good questions might be bandied about. If the poster

is not referring to that framework then I don't see how a cogent

conversation can be pursued.

Cheers,

Michael

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> What is your evidence that microwaves do anything deleterious to the qi?

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

The obvious evidence is inherent in that they are part of a toxic

lifestyle(one that encourages extreme hastening in support of the

illusion of accomplishing more quickly) and culture that are consuming

Yin.

[Guest guest]

as far as microwaves are concerned....I am not a physicist but as I understand

it there is little difference between using a stove top heating element and a

microwave, the main problem is that it is easy to " over cook " things in a

microwave without realizing it. They both excite molecules, faster they move,

hotter things get....

 

That being said, I don't use them often, but I am not totally opposed to them

either...one must be conscious when one uses them, at least that's what i think.

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Beijing, China

 

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

 

 

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

 

Sorry this site is in desperate need of remodeling, but I can not view it from

here, so I have not been able to up-date it.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

I was dismayed and disappointed to see a belief posted on a

professional medical forum that had absolutely no supporting evidence

of any kind. After all, we are practicing medicine which at least some

people think should be evidence-based. To me, this belief smacks of

the romantic, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific streak within our

profession's version of medicine, Western CM. From my point of view,

this is an example of an all too pervasive Ludditism couple with a

lack of critical judgment among a large portion of Western students

and practitioners of CM.

 

Further, to suggest, as you seem to do, that beliefs require no

evidence seems very facile and disingenuous to me -- as in " it's all

good. " I can only think you are inferring specifically religious

beliefs as evidence of a type of common belief not supported by

evidence, since, in all other areas of human endeavor, belief is

typically judged by the evidence for that belief -- as in right and

wrong beliefs, good and bad beliefs, etc. If you go on to say that

religious belief is a form of valid evidence-less belief, then I would

say that is extremely naive religious belief. In my experience and

according to Buddhist teachings on the three potential levels of

belief (or faith), mature religious belief is based on doing certain

practices (experiments, if you will) and then having certain

compelling personal experiences resulting in wisdom or a higher type

of knowledge. As Western examples of such higher knowledge based on

personal experience (i.e., spiritual exercises or experiments), I

would point to Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross whose faith

was certainly not evidence-less.

 

If, on the other hand, you are arguing that it is perfectly valid to

hold any and all beliefs without evidence, then I think that is a

puerile point of view. Consider the belief common in Nazi Germany that

Jews are somehow an inferior race and that the world would be a better

place if all Jews were exterminated. If we give a free pass to an idea

simply because it is labeled a belief, see where that can get us!

 

As for whether I do or do not believe in qi, if qi is defined as the

dynamic for change inherent in phenomenal existence (i.e., nature),

then, yes, I do believe in qi based on direct, personal (however

potentially universal) non-conceptual perception. In terms of

medicine, then, qi describes the dynamic phenomena of the body

manifesting as 1) movement, 2) transformation, 3) warming, 4)

defending, and 5) containing (viz. Wiseman & Feng). " Dynamic: "

" Relating to energy or physical force in motion... " (Webster's New

World Dictionary, College Edition, The World Publishing Company,

Cleveland & New York, 1966).

 

As for whether I believe that microwaves are deleterious to the qi of

food cooked in a microwave oven and, therefore, are deleterious to

human health, I have no idea because I lack any concrete evidence. If

you or anyone presents rationally compelling evidence of such a

deleterious effect, then I would be more than happy to entertain that

notion. However, I strongly believe that professional practitioners of

medicine, albeit CM, should present some sort of evidence before

publishing such beliefs on a forum such as this. As I perhaps more

than anyone else on this forum know, when you put thoughts in print,

these thoughts take on a life of their own. As Ben Franklin says in

the TV drama about John Adams (part 2), thinking out loud is the

source of many of the problems in this world.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

Wow, from microwave ovens to Thersa of Avila, St.John of the Cross and

Nazi Germany in one jump, James Burke would be proud. First off I

want to apologize for one critical error I made, I said " what you seem

to be inferring " I should have said what I think is being inferred. I

have no desire to discuss the merits of your speculations on what I

may believe. I do feel that some of the inferences about what may or

may not be going on in my head were entertaining. I rarely contribute

on this list but I do enjoy scanning it from time to time to garner

ideas and the wisdom of many of the posters here, you included. It is

interesting that you did not provide evidence (western method) for

your belief in qi other than a list of verbs and " personal

non-conceptual perception " (eastern method). How can that be construed

as evidence of qi for the rest of us? If it dismays you to see a

belief posted on a professional forum how is your statement different?

I realize you qualified your statement with a reference to the

Buddhist Dharma. Does that mean if I follow the Bob Dharma so to speak

I will be able to verify your personal non-conceptual perception about

the aforementioned verbs? Personally, I'm interested in the

intersection of beliefs and facts (such as they are) which is why I

provided a link and mentioned the pubmed search. I think your belief

in qi is just as essential as the posters belief in microwaves effect

for one reason only. It is the beginning of a conversation that may

contribute to my edification and others who participate. It does

appear to me that the evidence that was desired in your post was an

answer with western method data. If not then I apologize for the

misunderstanding and what other kinds of data would satisfy you?

Suppose the poster has a personal non-conceptual perception of

microwaves deleterious effects on the qi of herbs. Would that person's

perception of microwaves be acceptable to you if they also provide the

procedural Dharma? This has been interesting and thank you for the

exchange. I hope you have found it fun too.

Cheers,

Michael

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Michael,

>

> I was dismayed and disappointed to see a belief posted on a

> professional medical forum that had absolutely no supporting evidence

> of any kind. After all, we are practicing medicine which at least some

> people think should be evidence-based. To me, this belief smacks of

> the romantic, anti-intellectual, anti-scientific streak within our

> profession's version of medicine, Western CM. From my point of view,

> this is an example of an all too pervasive Ludditism couple with a

> lack of critical judgment among a large portion of Western students

> and practitioners of CM.

>

> Further, to suggest, as you seem to do, that beliefs require no

> evidence seems very facile and disingenuous to me -- as in " it's all

> good. " I can only think you are inferring specifically religious

> beliefs as evidence of a type of common belief not supported by

> evidence, since, in all other areas of human endeavor, belief is

> typically judged by the evidence for that belief -- as in right and

> wrong beliefs, good and bad beliefs, etc. If you go on to say that

> religious belief is a form of valid evidence-less belief, then I would

> say that is extremely naive religious belief. In my experience and

> according to Buddhist teachings on the three potential levels of

> belief (or faith), mature religious belief is based on doing certain

> practices (experiments, if you will) and then having certain

> compelling personal experiences resulting in wisdom or a higher type

> of knowledge. As Western examples of such higher knowledge based on

> personal experience (i.e., spiritual exercises or experiments), I

> would point to Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross whose faith

> was certainly not evidence-less.

>

> If, on the other hand, you are arguing that it is perfectly valid to

> hold any and all beliefs without evidence, then I think that is a

> puerile point of view. Consider the belief common in Nazi Germany that

> Jews are somehow an inferior race and that the world would be a better

> place if all Jews were exterminated. If we give a free pass to an idea

> simply because it is labeled a belief, see where that can get us!

>

> As for whether I do or do not believe in qi, if qi is defined as the

> dynamic for change inherent in phenomenal existence (i.e., nature),

> then, yes, I do believe in qi based on direct, personal (however

> potentially universal) non-conceptual perception. In terms of

> medicine, then, qi describes the dynamic phenomena of the body

> manifesting as 1) movement, 2) transformation, 3) warming, 4)

> defending, and 5) containing (viz. Wiseman & Feng). " Dynamic: "

> " Relating to energy or physical force in motion... " (Webster's New

> World Dictionary, College Edition, The World Publishing Company,

> Cleveland & New York, 1966).

>

> As for whether I believe that microwaves are deleterious to the qi of

> food cooked in a microwave oven and, therefore, are deleterious to

> human health, I have no idea because I lack any concrete evidence. If

> you or anyone presents rationally compelling evidence of such a

> deleterious effect, then I would be more than happy to entertain that

> notion. However, I strongly believe that professional practitioners of

> medicine, albeit CM, should present some sort of evidence before

> publishing such beliefs on a forum such as this. As I perhaps more

> than anyone else on this forum know, when you put thoughts in print,

> these thoughts take on a life of their own. As Ben Franklin says in

> the TV drama about John Adams (part 2), thinking out loud is the

> source of many of the problems in this world.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Michael,

The 'definition of qi' is one that has been accepted in Chinese

medical texts by authorities for two thousand years, and applied

empirically in clinics for that period of time as well. There is

tremendous source literature to support the phenomenon of qi in China,

and it remains integral to the practice of Chinese medicine.

 

My intuition also tells me not to microwave herbs unless they are

already cooked in some other fashion. But I cannot back up my

statement, I can only share what I feel or observe, quietly. I think

if one just shared one's personal insights as just that, personal

observations or thoughts, there would be no problem. I think what Bob

is saying that there is a lot of uncritical acceptance of ideas that

need to be discussed, investigated and debated before accepting them

outright. And for whoever doesn't think this is true, just look at

the wholesale acceptance of acutonics, NAET, psychics (one who was a

keynote speaker at a major CM conference) and 'facial mapping' into

our profession without the batting of an eyelash.

 

 

On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:21 PM, mpplac wrote:

 

> I will be able to verify your personal non-conceptual perception about

> the aforementioned verbs? Personally, I'm interested in the

> intersection of beliefs and facts (such as they are) which is why I

> provided a link and mentioned the pubmed search. I think your belief

> in qi is just as essential as the posters belief in microwaves effect

> for one reason only. It is the beginning of a conversation that may

> contribute to my edification and others who participate. It does

> appear to me that the evidence that was desired in your post was an

> answer with western method data. If not then I apologize for the

> misunderstanding and what other kinds of data would satisfy you?

> Suppose the poster has a personal non-conceptual perception of

> microwaves deleterious effects on the qi of herbs. Would that person's

> perception of microwaves be acceptable to you if they also provide the

> procedural Dharma? This has been interesting and thank you for the

> exchange. I hope you have found it fun too.

> Cheers,

> Michael

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I remember reading in the past that microwaves change the

configuration of amino acids from the naturally occuring L-

stereoisomer to the D-stereoisomers which have a deleterious and

toxic effect on the immune system, in particular the thymus. With

this in mind I think I would tend to believe that microwaves are not

beneficial to qi. I think that the fact they cause cancer would

also lead me to believe in a general way that they have a negative

impact on qi as well.

 

I don't know of any studies on microwaves and qi (and I doubt any

will ever be done in our lifetime) but then I am in a profession

based on thousands of years of clinical experience and not based on

studies. So studies were never of big concern to me. And studies

are definitely not the definitive, deciding factor of truth for

anything in this world. How many studies are done today only to be

repeated in the future with the exact opposite outcome. I think

that common sense and experience will allow one to make decisions

with generally acceptable outcomes. And I don't think common sense

would lend me to believe that microwaves have no effect or a

beneficial effect on qi. They are too strong in nature to be of

benefit. It is the weak stimuli in nature that tends to be healing

(i.e. homeopathy) and nuturing while the strong stimuli tends to be

damaging and lethal. In homeopathic literature they state that the

weakest stimuli have healing effects and promote biological process,

medium stimuli sustain biological process, and strong stimuli stop

biological process.

 

Personally, I don't use a microwave for cooking. Friends of mine

from Russia have told me that microwaves are banned there because of

their detrimental effects on health. And one only needs to look at

the incidence of brain cancer linked to cellular headsets (which are

considered microwaves) to see that microwaves do have a deleterious

effect on our qi.

 

Does anyone else have opinions or evidence that microwaves are

beneficial? It would be interesting to hear if they do. I always

like to hear both sides to a story.

 

Kimberly Marin AP, RD

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> What is your evidence that microwaves do anything deleterious to

the qi?

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

For a look at previous discussions on microwaves check out message #4140 in

the archive, and the messages in that general neighborhood. Basically you

can kill the qi, essence, mojo, nutrients in the herbs with a cookstove just

as easily, and most patients probably do overcook their herbs.

 

 

 

Sean

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Friday, June 20, 2008 5:01 PM

 

Re: Re: Granulars

 

 

 

Michael,

The 'definition of qi' is one that has been accepted in Chinese

medical texts by authorities for two thousand years, and applied

empirically in clinics for that period of time as well. There is

tremendous source literature to support the phenomenon of qi in China,

and it remains integral to the practice of Chinese medicine.

 

My intuition also tells me not to microwave herbs unless they are

already cooked in some other fashion. But I cannot back up my

statement, I can only share what I feel or observe, quietly. I think

if one just shared one's personal insights as just that, personal

observations or thoughts, there would be no problem. I think what Bob

is saying that there is a lot of uncritical acceptance of ideas that

need to be discussed, investigated and debated before accepting them

outright. And for whoever doesn't think this is true, just look at

the wholesale acceptance of acutonics, NAET, psychics (one who was a

keynote speaker at a major CM conference) and 'facial mapping' into

our profession without the batting of an eyelash.

 

 

On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:21 PM, mpplac wrote:

 

> I will be able to verify your personal non-conceptual perception about

> the aforementioned verbs? Personally, I'm interested in the

> intersection of beliefs and facts (such as they are) which is why I

> provided a link and mentioned the pubmed search. I think your belief

> in qi is just as essential as the posters belief in microwaves effect

> for one reason only. It is the beginning of a conversation that may

> contribute to my edification and others who participate. It does

> appear to me that the evidence that was desired in your post was an

> answer with western method data. If not then I apologize for the

> misunderstanding and what other kinds of data would satisfy you?

> Suppose the poster has a personal non-conceptual perception of

> microwaves deleterious effects on the qi of herbs. Would that person's

> perception of microwaves be acceptable to you if they also provide the

> procedural Dharma? This has been interesting and thank you for the

> exchange. I hope you have found it fun too.

> Cheers,

> Michael

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122