Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Jason, Dr. Y.J. Tao, a teacher of mine from ACTCM told us about the benefits of mixing Yu ping feng san and Sheng mai san for chronic allergic rhinitis: Huang qi, Bai zhu, *Fang feng* Ren shen, Mai men dong, *Wu wei zi * The idea is that according to modern research, both Fang feng and Wu wei zi are effective anti-allergenic herbs. Huang qi, Bai zhu and Ren shen restore the middle (source of phlegm-damp) and tonify wei qi/ying qi (Zheng qi = wei qi, ying qi + jing) and Mai men dong balances out the drying nature of Yu ping feng san. I've found this formula to be effective as a base, then adding symptomatic branch treatment herbs to it. It seems as though the four herbs: fang feng, yin chai hu, wu wei zi and wu mei may work well in combination with some herbs that also benefit the constitution, since most allergies have some type of def. as the root Also, I tried Dr. Xiumin Li's formula for asthma http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2005/dec/12fratkin.html on a few patients with a phlegm-heat diagnosis allergic rhinitis which also helped for chronic long-standing allergies, not for acute flare-ups. It only works with a larger dose : about 5 gms of concentrated 4:1-5:1 powder, tid My assumption is that Ling zhi benefits the Zong Qi and Ku shen takes care of the itching, phlegm and inflammation, Sheng gan cao clears heat and toxins and harmonizes the other two herbs. K. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 7:00 AM, < > wrote: > In the latest cinnabar creek, there is a small section on allergic > conditions (i.e. allergic rhinitis, hives). I found the formula quite > interesting. For the acute stage Dr. Zhu Shen-Yu uses a somewhat large dose > of sour astringents (wu mei 6 and wu wei zi 6). His base formula for any > allergic disorders is : fang feng, yin chai hu, wu mei, and wu wei zi. > > Most of the formulas that I have prescribed as well as read about usually > do > not use astringents at all or if so a very small amount. I am wondering > where this idea is from, and if others commonly use this strategy. I am > having a hard time making sense of it as I normally focus on expelling wind > etc. I would think that such additions would restrain the dispersing herbs. > Nonetheless, I have tried it with a couple of people, but did not have any > success. > > I do not know who Dr. Zhu is. Maybe he is into more modern prescribing, > i.e. > pharmacological properties of herbs. Maybe wu wei zi and wu mei have some > modern action he is keying into? > > Comments? > > - > > > > > < > http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig<=en> Want > a > signature like this? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 7:00 AM, < > wrote: > For the acute stage Dr. Zhu Shen-Yu uses a somewhat large dose > of sour astringents (wu mei 6 and wu wei zi 6). His base formula for any > allergic disorders is : fang feng, yin chai hu, wu mei, and wu wei zi. > Perhaps these are regionally used functions. I was given some proprietary formulas a few years back (long story) and the allergy formula indeed included yin chai hu. I don't have the formula any more, but I believe that wu mei and wu wei zi were included too. I see in my notes on yin chai hu that I looked for a long time to understand the inclusion of this yin chai hu in an allergy formula. There is one source that does describe one of its function as anti-allergy, however I didn't note the source in my notes. Not sure if that means anti-histamine or what. I'm guessing that this formula is based on biomedical insight more than TCM, except for fang feng which makes perfect sense in there, ala yu ping feng san. -al -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Yet another option - one excellent teacher, Dr. Jian Xin Huang in Seattle, sells Yu Ping Feng San + Gui Zhi Tang - as a standard formula for allergies. His company is Long Life Herbs @ http://www.drhuang.biz/ He also sells a computer program that calculates open points Zhi Wu Liu Zhu (IIRC) points by the clock, or Chronoacupuncture. Fun stuff. Geoff , " " <johnkokko wrote: > > Jason, > > Dr. Y.J. Tao, a teacher of mine from ACTCM told us about the benefits of > mixing > Yu ping feng san and Sheng mai san for chronic allergic rhinitis: > Huang qi, Bai zhu, *Fang feng* > Ren shen, Mai men dong, *Wu wei zi > * > The idea is that according to modern research, both Fang feng and Wu wei zi > are effective anti-allergenic herbs. > Huang qi, Bai zhu and Ren shen restore the middle (source of phlegm-damp) > and tonify wei qi/ying qi > (Zheng qi = wei qi, ying qi + jing) > and Mai men dong balances out the drying nature of Yu ping feng san. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 I know this question has been asked before, but it was never answered...so at the risk of sounding repetative: What is Cinnabar Creek? Many of the posters quote articles from it. I've done several internet searches and can find nothing. Any direction here would be greatly appreciated. Wishing you wisdom, Randy , " " wrote: > > In the latest cinnabar creek, there is a small section on allergic > conditions (i.e. allergic rhinitis, hives). I found the formula quite > interesting. For the acute stage Dr. Zhu Shen-Yu uses a somewhat large dose > of sour astringents (wu mei 6 and wu wei zi 6). His base formula for any > allergic disorders is : fang feng, yin chai hu, wu mei, and wu wei zi. > > > > Most of the formulas that I have prescribed as well as read about usually do > not use astringents at all or if so a very small amount. I am wondering > where this idea is from, and if others commonly use this strategy. I am > having a hard time making sense of it as I normally focus on expelling wind > etc. I would think that such additions would restrain the dispersing herbs. > Nonetheless, I have tried it with a couple of people, but did not have any > success. > > > > I do not know who Dr. Zhu is. Maybe he is into more modern prescribing, i.e. > pharmacological properties of herbs. Maybe wu wei zi and wu mei have some > modern action he is keying into? > > > > Comments? > > > > - > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street% 2C+Suite+20 > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature? src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig<=en> Want a > signature like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Randy, Sorry this question was not answered before; it is Spring Wind's newsletter. I am sure if you call them, they will be happy to put you on the list. - _____ On Behalf Of rparrny Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:54 PM Re: Allergic conditions I know this question has been asked before, but it was never answered...so at the risk of sounding repetative: What is Cinnabar Creek? Many of the posters quote articles from it. I've done several internet searches and can find nothing. Any direction here would be greatly appreciated. Wishing you wisdom, Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Jason, I found the site and will call them tomorrow. Much thanks, Wishing you wisdom, Randy , " " wrote: > > Randy, > > > > Sorry this question was not answered before; it is Spring Wind's newsletter. > I am sure if you call them, they will be happy to put you on the list. > > > > - > > > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of rparrny > Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:54 PM > > Re: Allergic conditions > > > > I know this question has been asked before, but it was never > answered...so at the risk of sounding repetative: > What is Cinnabar Creek? Many of the posters quote articles from it. > I've done several internet searches and can find nothing. > Any direction here would be greatly appreciated. > > Wishing you wisdom, > Randy > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 www.springwind.com or andy On May 31, 2008, at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Randy, > > Sorry this question was not answered before; it is Spring Wind's > newsletter. > I am sure if you call them, they will be happy to put you on the list. > > - > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of rparrny > Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:54 PM > > Re: Allergic conditions > > I know this question has been asked before, but it was never > answered...so at the risk of sounding repetative: > What is Cinnabar Creek? Many of the posters quote articles from it. > I've done several internet searches and can find nothing. > Any direction here would be greatly appreciated. > > Wishing you wisdom, > Randy > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Jason, Mazin Al Khafaji uses wu mei and wu wei zi quite alot for allergic conditions, usually for allergic rhinnitis and uriticaria. Mazin really stressed though that these sour medicinals are better used when the lung Qi is very weak and needs to be astringed. Usually these medicinals are used in the later stages when most of the wind and or blood heat (yes blood heat can be a common cause of allergic rhinnitus, ie. large doses of mu dan pi) have been cleared. Then the sour medicinals can be used to consolidate the exterior for better long term results. On the other hand, sometimes when you have tried everything else, the addition of these sour medicinals can be the make or break ingredients for a successful outcome. Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Jason, I thought his base formula for allergies was interesting too. His use of sour herbs in a wind condition reminded me that ingredients with opposing actions are sometimes used together for different results. I'm not exactly sure of his rationale, but possibly fang feng is used to disperse wind while wu wei zi and wu mei consolidate the exterior. Used together they may moderate one another. Another formula with opposing ingredients, Ding Chuan Tang, comes to mind. In that, ma huang disperses lung qi and bai guo astringes lung qi. Also, Giovanni Maciocia adds sour ingredients (wu wei zi, wu mei) in his allergy formula called " Jade Screen " . http://tinyurl.com/3kzh82 Just some thoughts. -Danny On May 31, 2008, at 7:00 AM, wrote: > Most of the formulas that I have prescribed as well as read about > usually do > not use astringents at all or if so a very small amount. I am > wondering > where this idea is from, and if others commonly use this strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 I've had good results with some patients with Yu Ping Feng San plus Ren Shen and Zhi Gan Cao. Won't work if I take out Ren Shen and add Dang Shen. I think the idea behind adding astringents is that if you open things up with diaphorectics its easy to open things too much and make symptoms worse. You have to tonify enough that you don't open too much--so astringents would help balance that as would tonics (like Ren Shen). Maciocia talks a lot about this kind of thing in The Practice of . I find that diaphoretics without enough tonification get me nowhere and that some patients even need tonification on the level of something like Lu Jiao Jiao. , " G Hudson " <ozark.canuck wrote: > > Yet another option - one excellent teacher, Dr. Jian Xin Huang in > Seattle, sells Yu Ping Feng San + Gui Zhi Tang - as a standard formula > for allergies. His company is Long Life Herbs @ http://www.drhuang.biz/ > > He also sells a computer program that calculates open points Zhi Wu > Liu Zhu (IIRC) points by the clock, or Chronoacupuncture. Fun stuff. > > Geoff > > > > , " " > <johnkokko@> wrote: > > > > Jason, > > > > Dr. Y.J. Tao, a teacher of mine from ACTCM told us about the benefits of > > mixing > > Yu ping feng san and Sheng mai san for chronic allergic rhinitis: > > Huang qi, Bai zhu, *Fang feng* > > Ren shen, Mai men dong, *Wu wei zi > > * > > The idea is that according to modern research, both Fang feng and Wu > wei zi > > are effective anti-allergenic herbs. > > Huang qi, Bai zhu and Ren shen restore the middle (source of > phlegm-damp) > > and tonify wei qi/ying qi > > (Zheng qi = wei qi, ying qi + jing) > > and Mai men dong balances out the drying nature of Yu ping feng san. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2008 Report Share Posted June 4, 2008 Danny, Thanks for your input. I of course agree that using opposing actions is a valid concept in CM. However, I am unsure if I have ever seen it talked about with herbs like fang feng. Usually it is with ma haung and there is usually some asthma / wheezing. I wonder why fang feng would need to be moderated. Almost every case study I have seen for acute allergies (except for the one in question) does not worry about astringing. Thanks for pointing out this Giovanni formula; it definitely supports this astringent idea. Has anyone used it? What has the success been? I will try some iterations this week. However, I have never been a big fan of his " prepared " formulas. They usually contain a few herbs for every possible pattern, creating a catch all formula for a given disease. They do not seem precise. Although as Alon always says, does it work. Anyone have experience with this one in particular? Nice conversation, it is definitely making me think more about this astringing concept. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Santa Cruz Acupuncture Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:08 PM Re: Allergic conditions Jason, I thought his base formula for allergies was interesting too. His use of sour herbs in a wind condition reminded me that ingredients with opposing actions are sometimes used together for different results. I'm not exactly sure of his rationale, but possibly fang feng is used to disperse wind while wu wei zi and wu mei consolidate the exterior. Used together they may moderate one another. Another formula with opposing ingredients, Ding Chuan Tang, comes to mind. In that, ma huang disperses lung qi and bai guo astringes lung qi. Also, Giovanni Maciocia adds sour ingredients (wu wei zi, wu mei) in his allergy formula called " Jade Screen " . http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/3kzh82> com/3kzh82 Just some thoughts. -Danny On May 31, 2008, at 7:00 AM, wrote: > Most of the formulas that I have prescribed as well as read about > usually do > not use astringents at all or if so a very small amount. I am > wondering > where this idea is from, and if others commonly use this strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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