astringents for acute allergies

[Guest guest]

Here are some further thoughts on using high doses of astringents for acute

allergies (specifically acute rhinitis).

 

 

 

First to address Alon's comment about his observation that dispersing strategy

is sometimes not enough. I agree and I did not intend to imply that this is all

that one does in the treatment of allergies. That is just 1 treatment principle.

There are many adjunct therapies that are needed. However I still think

resolving the exterior with wind-coursing medicinals is usually an appropriate

focus.

 

 

 

After jst finishing reviewing about 20 famous doctors discussions (some with

research) on the topic of treatment of sinus conditions (mostly allergic) here

is my observations. None recommend heavy astringent in the acute stages. I did

find the formula wu wei zi, wu mai, fang feng, and chai hu. (Wu Zheng-hua,

experience in Treating Nasosinusitis) - He uses it for chronic rhinitis.

 

 

 

I asked Chip Chace about this question. He has translated, published and

lectured on this topic extensively. He said this strategy is unfounded and

potentially harmful. He points out that there are many acute allergic sinus

situations that it is warned to not use excessive astringing. The astringing CAN

shut down the allergic response (astringing the inflamed tissue) but this can

lead to further hypertrophy of the nasal mucosa or further exacerbate the

development of long-term atrophic rhinitis. This can exacerbate many patters

such as damp-heat and yin xu heat. He has seen numerous cases that may have

immediate reduction in symptoms where they later develop problems from this type

of astringing. He therefore does not use (anymore) astringents in this manner

for acute allergies, and even some chronic problems.

 

 

 

So, as noted before, even if this strategy works in the short term there may be

ramifications down the road.

 

 

 

In conclusion, I think this discussion actually illustrates two bigger points.

 

1) one can run into problems when one bases a formula off of a western medicine

concept, without truly considering CM. Just adhering to a western medicine

concept (i.e. stop allergy) may have consequences when one doesn't follow the

principles of CM.

 

2) There is also a problem when one tries to devise a base formula that covers a

multitude of patterns, especially when trying to do both acute and chronic. In

either case, one is going to lose precision and end up mistreating a certain

percentage of people. Such a formula plays the Western medicine game, what is

the biggest percentage of people we can treat with a more simplified approach.

For those that it doesn't work, try something else. IMO, this does not make use

of the full potential of CM ability.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Interesting statements from Chip. Can you provide any evidence for it?

Its hard for me to believe since we basically have no validated

information on long term effect (especially harmful) of chinese herbal

medicine. They only way you can validate a complication is to have a

large controlled study. Do people taking daily umeboshi have such

problems?

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

As mentioned months ago, umeboshi is not wu mei. Eating these is a different

issue than taking large dosages of sour in a decoction.

 

 

 

The evidence is from two sources:

 

1) Chip's clinical experience.

 

2) There are journal articles that talk specifically about this. One

such source is Wu Zeng-hua, Experience in Treating Nasosinusitis, Tianjin

Journal of Traditional (Tianjin Zhongyi): 42

 

3) We have plenty of evidence for long-term usage of herbs. It may not

be double blind western research, but there is no shortage of discussions in

Chinese discussing such issues. Just because you have not seen such material

in English does not mean it doesn't exist.

 

 

 

It is hard to argue with this.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of alon marcus

Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:58 PM

 

Re:astringents for acute allergies

 

 

 

Interesting statements from Chip. Can you provide any evidence for it?

Its hard for me to believe since we basically have no validated

information on long term effect (especially harmful) of chinese herbal

medicine. They only way you can validate a complication is to have a

large controlled study. Do people taking daily umeboshi have such

problems?

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) <alonmarcus%40wans.net> net

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

As enticing as this discussion is I am too busy to give it much energy...but I

have three questions for you.

 

1. What is the mechanism for astringents to directly effect the inflamed tissue,

say of the nose?

 

2. Why do you say that eating plums is different that drinking a decoction

(which is in fact expressed in Chinese as µÉ to eat)?

 

3. Where did the idea of using " heavy " astringing come from? I don't remember

that...and I don't use it personally. I just use a standard dose range...any

btw, yes I do pattern discrimination...but I also sometimes add medicinals that

are known to be specific for certain conditions, whether the information comes

from the West or East, I honestly don't care, as long as it works. Furthermore,

I think the tincture may work better, which is far less astringing...although I

don't want to be quoted on that I am not sure.

 

Also, I don't think my quote is a stretch, I think doctors at that time would

have considered all information available to them, which is exactly what that

quote is about. Do you think when myrrh or so many other medicinals or ideas

first came to China, they didn't use them because they had no theory to

understand how they worked? Or do you think they used them and built theory

around them?

 

Ok, so that was more than three questions.

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Beijing, China

 

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

 

 

 

www.sourcepointherbs.org

Sorry this site is in desperate need of remodeling, but I can not view it from

here, so I have not been able to fix it.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Friday, June 06, 2008 1:14 AM

 

Re: astringents for acute allergies

 

 

 

Jason,

 

As enticing as this discussion is I am too busy to give it much energy...but

I have three questions for you.

 

1. What is the mechanism for astringents to directly effect the inflamed

tissue, say of the nose?

 

(Jason) Don¡Çt know¡Ä

 

2. Why do you say that eating plums is different that drinking a decoction

(which is in fact expressed in Chinese as µÉ to eat)?

 

 

 

(Jason) Just because in Chinese the same character is used for both does not

mean that they have the same affect. Herbs have different affects if eaten

versus decocted versus tinctured, etc.

 

 

3. Where did the idea of using " heavy " astringing come from?

 

 

 

(Jason) If you check out the first post, the base formula was 50%

astringent. This is heavy and all patients that drank iterations of this

formula mentioned how excessively sour it was. Furthermore the warning from

the doctors said ¡Èdo not use heavy astringents¡É

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason

Harmful effects especially is not severe are extremely hard to

document, there is no other way of finding them unless one does a

large controlled studies. Does the article say how he came to this

conclusion? By the way, in the hospital i worked at they had these

prepared wu mei that was given as a treatment for sore throats,

including acute. I think it was prepared with ban lan gen but i cant

remember.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Isn't Wu mei roasted Ume plum?

Doesn't Roasting (Wei) / Charring (Tan) create more of an astringent quality

due to carbonization?

 

Therefore Umeboshi studies must be differentiated from the use of Wu mei in

Chinese medicine.

 

 

 

K.

 

 

 

 

2008/6/6 :

 

>

>

> _____

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of

> Friday, June 06, 2008 1:14 AM

>

> <%40>

> Re: astringents for acute allergies

>

> Jason,

>

> As enticing as this discussion is I am too busy to give it much

> energy...but

> I have three questions for you.

>

> 1. What is the mechanism for astringents to directly effect the inflamed

> tissue, say of the nose?

>

> (Jason) Don't know¡Ä

>

> 2. Why do you say that eating plums is different that drinking a decoction

> (which is in fact expressed in Chinese as µÉ to eat)?

>

> (Jason) Just because in Chinese the same character is used for both does

> not

> mean that they have the same affect. Herbs have different affects if eaten

> versus decocted versus tinctured, etc.

>

> 3. Where did the idea of using " heavy " astringing come from?

>

> (Jason) If you check out the first post, the base formula was 50%

> astringent. This is heavy and all patients that drank iterations of this

> formula mentioned how excessively sour it was. Furthermore the warning from

> the doctors said " do not use heavy astringents "

>

> Jason

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

 

 

If I remember correctly you were in China in the 80's - It was the height

(some say) of the biomedical craze- i.e. treat viral with anti-viral - Many

things in the time period have been severely criticized. They were

experimenting with all sorts of pharmacological approaches, many of which

have fallen by the wayside. It does not make it correct. Many hospital

treatments are not good, IMO.

 

 

 

If one is observant with their patient population it is not that difficult

to figure out what treatments start to cause lingering problems, i.e. giving

excessive sours at the onset of acute allergies, as Chip and other Chinese

doctors have observed.

 

 

 

It is my experience that a lot of people do not follow people closely.

However many do. I do not find it that difficult to correlate problems that

occur with improper treatment of acute problems. You start to see patterns

over and over. You just have to look. For example, as I have mentioned in

the past, some of the popular cold medicines can cause lurking pathogens.

This does not mean in everyone, but it happens. (and theory explains why

this might happen)

 

 

 

So when experts in the field come up with these observations (in the US and

China) I would be a fool to ignore this, and again theory backs up the

clinical experience that they are communicating.

 

 

 

Therefore, I have no more information; you will have to research the rest on

your end.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of alon marcus

Friday, June 06, 2008 8:13 AM

 

Re: astringents for acute allergies

 

 

 

Jason

Harmful effects especially is not severe are extremely hard to

document, there is no other way of finding them unless one does a

large controlled studies. Does the article say how he came to this

conclusion? By the way, in the hospital i worked at they had these

prepared wu mei that was given as a treatment for sore throats,

including acute. I think it was prepared with ban lan gen but i cant

remember.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) <alonmarcus%40wans.net> net

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason

I would have to strongly disagree with this statement " If one is

observant with their patient population it is not that difficult

to figure out what treatments start to cause lingering problems, i.e.

giving

excessive sours at the onset of acute allergies, as Chip and other

Chinese " .

First its unlikely that a clinic has large enough of a pupation to

follow such complications and then compare them to a large population

with the same disease {untreated} and then compare the " wrongly

treated " to " correctly " treated. This is what you need to do to prove

cause and affect. Its one of the hardest things to document

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus