Guest guest Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 , " dmvitello01 " <dmvitello wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am trying to figure out how to calculate the dose of raw herbs when > prescribing a Kan tincture. Heres all the info I could get from Kan: > > 1. In a 1 oz. bottle there are 28.35g of raw herb > 2. The tinctures are 8:1 ratio > > My calculation so far has been 28.35g x 8 = 226.8g raw herb per 1 oz. > bottle. > > In most patients I prefer to give 90-120g of raw herbs. Therefore, a 1 > oz. bottle would ONLY equal about two doses. Correct? There are many things wrong with the above math. I don't have it all down because I don't use the products, but here is a start. 1) a 1 oz. (fluid oz.) bottle of liquid doesn't necessary weigh 1 oz. (solid matter) - fluid oz. describes volume, whereas solid matter oz. describes mass; mass and volume are 2 different things and cannot be used interchangably here 2) the 28.35g = 1 oz. is for mass, not volume 3) and 8:1 ratio assumes 9 parts (not 8); in other words, there is 8 parts of something and 1 part of something else; in the case of these tinctures (I am guessing here) there are 8 parts liquid and 1 part herb stuff; therefore, only 1/9th of the 1 fl oz. is herb stuff 4) How much does does that 1/9 of the 1 fl oz that is herb stuff weigh? I don't know. It would be different for different formulas, depending on the density of the original herbs. 5) Once you have the weight of the actual herb stuff in the tincture, then you can multiply it by the concentration ratio. For instance, if it were 20:1, then you would multiply it by 20 in order to get the raw herb equivilent. I am not sure what the concentration of Kan's tinctures are or if they are the same amongst all formulas. I hope this helps as a starter. Someone with more intiment knowledge of Kan tinctures should chime in to correct me and / or fill in the gaps. Brian C. Allen, MSTOM Oriental Medicine and Health Services http://omhs.biz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 > , " dmvitello01 " > <dmvitello@> wrote: > > I am trying to figure out how to calculate the dose of raw herbs when > > prescribing a Kan tincture. Heres all the info I could get from Kan: > > > > 1. In a 1 oz. bottle there are 28.35g of raw herb > > 2. The tinctures are 8:1 ratio > > > > My calculation so far has been 28.35g x 8 = 226.8g raw herb per 1 oz. > > bottle. > >(Brian) There are many things wrong with the above math. I don't have it all > down because I don't use the products, but here is a start. Yes, Brian is right that the math is not correct here. From what I was told by a Kan representative, 8 lbs of crude herbs go into each gallon of final product. This ends up being very close to 1g/ml, which matches the info (28.35g/1 oz bottle). One fluid ounce is close to one milliliter. Brian is correct that one dry ounce does not weight the same as one fluid ounce of any given fluid, although one ml of water does weigh one gram (the basis of the metric system is that one ml of water takes up one cubic cm of space and weighs one gram, everything else is built from this starting point). At any rate, most of the liquid extracts on the market max out at about 1g of raw herbs per ml. As an experiment, I used water, alcohol, and glycerin to duplicate the consistency of a liquid extract, and instead of making the extraction from crude herbs myself, I simply mixed in a low-filler granule (concentrated powder). I calculated it to achieve the same concentration ratio of 1g of crude herb per milliliter, and it came out great. My starting powder had little filler and dissolved completely without residue, and the flavor and consistency was basically identical to the commercial products. Factoring in the cost of materials (granules, alcohol, and glycerin), I was able to achieve the same 1g/ml concentration for about 1/5-1/10 the price of the commercial liquid products. Obviously this is a slightly different product than the liquid extracts made in the US, because the liquid extracts made here are done on an artisan scale, using different technology and methods. But it is interesting to give it a try to see the results. I think there will be variability depending on the starting extract that is used, I got a good result from a Chinese-made extract with little filler, which dissolves well in boiling water without much 'mud' and sediment, it didn't need to be filtered or anything. I was amazed at how close the flavor and consistency were. I didn't know that it was possible to do this method, I just tried it on a whim and couldn't believe the results. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Incidentally, if you've never tried the lu rong liquid extract that Hank of Far East/Chinese Classics makes, you should! It's awesome, really memorable stuff. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 tell us more about using the glycerin... where do you get it? Do you think it will it keep almost as long as alcohol based? Doug , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > > , " dmvitello01 " > > <dmvitello@> wrote: > > > I am trying to figure out how to calculate the dose of raw herbs when > > > prescribing a Kan tincture. Heres all the info I could get from Kan: > > > > > > 1. In a 1 oz. bottle there are 28.35g of raw herb > > > 2. The tinctures are 8:1 ratio > > > > > > My calculation so far has been 28.35g x 8 = 226.8g raw herb per 1 oz. > > > bottle. > > > >(Brian) There are many things wrong with the above math. I don't > have it all > > down because I don't use the products, but here is a start. > > Yes, Brian is right that the math is not correct here. > > From what I was told by a Kan representative, 8 lbs of crude herbs go > into each gallon of final product. This ends up being very close to > 1g/ml, which matches the info (28.35g/1 oz bottle). One fluid ounce > is close to one milliliter. Brian is correct that one dry ounce does > not weight the same as one fluid ounce of any given fluid, although > one ml of water does weigh one gram (the basis of the metric system is > that one ml of water takes up one cubic cm of space and weighs one > gram, everything else is built from this starting point). > > At any rate, most of the liquid extracts on the market max out at > about 1g of raw herbs per ml. As an experiment, I used water, > alcohol, and glycerin to duplicate the consistency of a liquid > extract, and instead of making the extraction from crude herbs myself, > I simply mixed in a low-filler granule (concentrated powder). I > calculated it to achieve the same concentration ratio of 1g of crude > herb per milliliter, and it came out great. My starting powder had > little filler and dissolved completely without residue, and the flavor > and consistency was basically identical to the commercial products. > Factoring in the cost of materials (granules, alcohol, and glycerin), > I was able to achieve the same 1g/ml concentration for about 1/5-1/10 > the price of the commercial liquid products. > > Obviously this is a slightly different product than the liquid > extracts made in the US, because the liquid extracts made here are > done on an artisan scale, using different technology and methods. But > it is interesting to give it a try to see the results. I think there > will be variability depending on the starting extract that is used, I > got a good result from a Chinese-made extract with little filler, > which dissolves well in boiling water without much 'mud' and sediment, > it didn't need to be filtered or anything. I was amazed at how close > the flavor and consistency were. I didn't know that it was possible to > do this method, I just tried it on a whim and couldn't believe the > results. > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 , " " wrote: > > tell us more about using the glycerin... where do you get it? Do you > think it will it keep almost as long as alcohol based? It was the first time that I'd ever tried using glycerin, so I am no expert. I used boiling water, alcohol, and glycerin, and the alcohol is the main preservative (about 20% pure alcohol and 18% glycerin works well). The glycerin is mostly there to keep the water and alcohol soluble fractions well integrated, otherwise the two layers tend to separate. It also makes it taste a bit thicker and sweeter, causing it to have a more medicinal taste and less of a feeling like the patient is drinking Grey Goose. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 That 8:1 ratio is baloney. It is based on 8 pounds of herbs per gallon of alcohol. Nobody uses that standard anymore. Their actual ratio is approximately 0.8 grams of herbs per milliliter of alcohol (0.8/1), making it about 4 - 5 times stronger than a tincture. In my experience using Kan liquids and making similar extracts of my own for around 20 years, a good dosage is one teaspoon, 3 times per day. The dosage on the label is woefully inadequate. - Bill Schoenbart , " dmvitello01 " <dmvitello wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am trying to figure out how to calculate the dose of raw herbs when > prescribing a Kan tincture. Heres all the info I could get from Kan: > > 1. In a 1 oz. bottle there are 28.35g of raw herb > 2. The tinctures are 8:1 ratio > > My calculation so far has been 28.35g x 8 = 226.8g raw herb per 1 oz. > bottle. > > In most patients I prefer to give 90-120g of raw herbs. Therefore, a 1 > oz. bottle would ONLY equal about two doses. Correct? > > Further, would Kan tinctures require a lower dose for some reason? > > In keeping with the advice of the many seasoned practitioners on this > group, and my own little experience, I want to make sure I am giving > therapuetic dose. > > Thank you for any help or advice. > Dave V > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 I tend to use that dosage as a minimum, sometimes 2 to 3 times as much since I use the Kan extracts extensively. I should point out that Kan's extracts are 50/50 water and alcohol, cooked at low temperatures in closed pyrex glass vessels, so the preparation method is different from the usual tincture. P.S. I am a product consultant and distributor for Kan. Full disclosure ---- bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote: > That 8:1 ratio is baloney. It is based on 8 pounds of herbs per gallon > of alcohol. Nobody uses that standard anymore. Their actual ratio is > approximately 0.8 grams of herbs per milliliter of alcohol (0.8/1), > making it about 4 - 5 times stronger than a tincture. > > In my experience using Kan liquids and making similar extracts of my > own for around 20 years, a good dosage is one teaspoon, 3 times per > day. The dosage on the label is woefully inadequate. > > - Bill Schoenbart > > > , " dmvitello01 " > <dmvitello wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am trying to figure out how to calculate the dose of raw herbs when > > prescribing a Kan tincture. Heres all the info I could get from Kan: > > > > 1. In a 1 oz. bottle there are 28.35g of raw herb > > 2. The tinctures are 8:1 ratio > > > > My calculation so far has been 28.35g x 8 = 226.8g raw herb per 1 oz. > > bottle. > > > > In most patients I prefer to give 90-120g of raw herbs. Therefore, a 1 > > oz. bottle would ONLY equal about two doses. Correct? > > > > Further, would Kan tinctures require a lower dose for some reason? > > > > In keeping with the advice of the many seasoned practitioners on this > > group, and my own little experience, I want to make sure I am giving > > therapuetic dose. > > > > Thank you for any help or advice. > > Dave V > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Zev, Yes, the teaspoon dose is per formula. I often prescribe two or three formulas, each of which has the teaspoon dose. If there is a dropper, around 5 squirts equals a teaspoon. By 50/50 water, you must be referring to the initial amount, since their finished extracts contain 18 - 20% alcohol. - Bill , <zrosenbe wrote: > > I tend to use that dosage as a minimum, sometimes 2 to 3 times as much since I use the Kan extracts extensively. I should point out that Kan's extracts are 50/50 water and alcohol, cooked at low temperatures in closed pyrex glass vessels, so the preparation method is different from the usual tincture. > > P.S. I am a product consultant and distributor for Kan. Full disclosure > > > ---- bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote: > > That 8:1 ratio is baloney. It is based on 8 pounds of herbs per gallon > > of alcohol. Nobody uses that standard anymore. Their actual ratio is > > approximately 0.8 grams of herbs per milliliter of alcohol (0.8/1), > > making it about 4 - 5 times stronger than a tincture. > > > > In my experience using Kan liquids and making similar extracts of my > > own for around 20 years, a good dosage is one teaspoon, 3 times per > > day. The dosage on the label is woefully inadequate. > > > > - Bill Schoenbart > > > > > > , " dmvitello01 " > > <dmvitello@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I am trying to figure out how to calculate the dose of raw herbs when > > > prescribing a Kan tincture. Heres all the info I could get from Kan: > > > > > > 1. In a 1 oz. bottle there are 28.35g of raw herb > > > 2. The tinctures are 8:1 ratio > > > > > > My calculation so far has been 28.35g x 8 = 226.8g raw herb per 1 oz. > > > bottle. > > > > > > In most patients I prefer to give 90-120g of raw herbs. Therefore, a 1 > > > oz. bottle would ONLY equal about two doses. Correct? > > > > > > Further, would Kan tinctures require a lower dose for some reason? > > > > > > In keeping with the advice of the many seasoned practitioners on this > > > group, and my own little experience, I want to make sure I am giving > > > therapuetic dose. > > > > > > Thank you for any help or advice. > > > Dave V > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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