Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 5:52 AM, < > wrote: > I think this topic is too important to let a couple of bullies > intimidate > everyone. Others thoughts? > I'm not sure who the " bullies " are. Was that in reference to this list? The topic being how to prove the value of CM. The usual method in biomedicine is randomized placebo controlled double-blind multi-center studies. I see the use of herbs in Asia to have its own *cultural legitimacy* that we lack in the West. I know that in Russia, many doctors routinely prescribe herbs for issues of internal medicine. At least the doctors who treated some of the people in my life from Moscow. But here in the US, herbs as medicinal tools are still obviously suspect. Rather than prove herbs' efficacy with the same tools that we use to establish efficacy of drugs, I propose that we seek to establish a cultural legitimacy for the use of herbs. What I've tried to do is locate something familiar in American culture that has rarely been questioned but remains a common home remedy. So, I researched the history of chicken soup's curative powers<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_soup#Curative_powers>. Some say it arose originally from the writings of Moses Maimonides<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Maimonides>, a 12th century rabbi in Spain. Others point to other sources including ancient Egypt. One in vitro study even suggests that chicken soup has an anti-inflammatory effect on the body via slowing the movement of neutrophils<http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/118/4/1150/> .. But the point is, Americans have no problem with drinking chicken soup when we have an upper-respiratory infection. We accept that as beneficial. While it isn't quite as clear or well developed as the Shang Han Lun, it comes close to a parallel assumption of efficacy thanks to the cultural legitimacy of this simple home remedy. I'm trying to look for other culturally accepted home remedies that lack vast research studies, but that nobody really questions. This is one method that I hope will help us get herbs into the Western health care system, by positioning them along side other remedies that are equally " unproven " but accepted by the larger culture. This " cultural legitimacy " is an important tool, I believe. We all know that the (usually unfounded) fears of Chinese herbs arise because they are considered to be unregulated drugs in most doctor's minds. The law (DSHEA) regulates them more like vitamins, but lack of cultural legitimacy causes doctors (and to a certain extent, consumers) to see them more as dangerous drugs. If we can reposition the herbs into something more familiar and comfortable for people, that may yield positive results for us. I am reminded of the " Chicken Soup for the Soul: book series. Perhaps we should talk about Chinese herbs as " Chicken Soup for the Qi " or something. Any other ideas as to how to describe Chinese herbs in culturally legitimate terms? -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Al Since chicken soup is contraindicated in CM for Gan Mao what do we do with that? is culturally accepted home remedies work only within its own culture? Or do we still need to evaluate evidence for these remedies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Chicken is a warming tonic or something like that, right? I'm not sure what its CM herbal properties look like, but Chicken soup does enjoy a cultural legitimacy that isn't questioned here. That's my point. How do we get herbs out of the " drugs are dangerous " part of our brains to make those " foods are good for you " connections. This particular conversation is less about medical efficacy or mechanisms and more about cultural perceptions. On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > Al > Since chicken soup is contraindicated in CM for Gan Mao what do we do with > that? is culturally accepted home remedies work only within its own culture? > Or do we still need to evaluate evidence for these remedies? > > > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Al, Yes this is precisely what needs to happen. Western approaches fall short in almost every respect. IF we accept the Western standard then anything that " hasn't been proven " is considered invalid. The bullies are the ones who invalidate others experience or experiences of know experts because they have no " proof " to what they claim. Of course we need to ask for sources, and evaluate these sources, no one is arguing otherwise. But it is my observation that human observations in many respects is far superior to these controlled studies. I mentioned this bully concept because I have had multiple private emails that are afraid to post on the CHA because of this trend. Your chicken soup example reminds me of my ex-girlfriend from Taiwan. She did not believe in CM and thought it was a bit hokey. Although interestingly she routinely made dang gui and he shou wu chicken after her periods. She also would mention si wu tang soups for post periods. She did not think this was CM, but just her culture... -Jason Al Stone Friday, June 27, 2008 9:58 AM Cultural Legitimacy of Herbs On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 5:52 AM, < > wrote: > I think this topic is too important to let a couple of bullies > intimidate > everyone. Others thoughts? > I'm not sure who the " bullies " are. Was that in reference to this list? The topic being how to prove the value of CM. The usual method in biomedicine is randomized placebo controlled double-blind multi-center studies. I see the use of herbs in Asia to have its own *cultural legitimacy* that we lack in the West. I know that in Russia, many doctors routinely prescribe herbs for issues of internal medicine. At least the doctors who treated some of the people in my life from Moscow. But here in the US, herbs as medicinal tools are still obviously suspect. Rather than prove herbs' efficacy with the same tools that we use to establish efficacy of drugs, I propose that we seek to establish a cultural legitimacy for the use of herbs. What I've tried to do is locate something familiar in American culture that has rarely been questioned but remains a common home remedy. So, I researched the history of chicken soup's curative powers<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_soup#Curative_powers>. Some say it arose originally from the writings of Moses Maimonides<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Maimonides>, a 12th century rabbi in Spain. Others point to other sources including ancient Egypt. One in vitro study even suggests that chicken soup has an anti-inflammatory effect on the body via slowing the movement of neutrophils<http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/118/4/1150/> .. But the point is, Americans have no problem with drinking chicken soup when we have an upper-respiratory infection. We accept that as beneficial. While it isn't quite as clear or well developed as the Shang Han Lun, it comes close to a parallel assumption of efficacy thanks to the cultural legitimacy of this simple home remedy. I'm trying to look for other culturally accepted home remedies that lack vast research studies, but that nobody really questions. This is one method that I hope will help us get herbs into the Western health care system, by positioning them along side other remedies that are equally " unproven " but accepted by the larger culture. This " cultural legitimacy " is an important tool, I believe. We all know that the (usually unfounded) fears of Chinese herbs arise because they are considered to be unregulated drugs in most doctor's minds. The law (DSHEA) regulates them more like vitamins, but lack of cultural legitimacy causes doctors (and to a certain extent, consumers) to see them more as dangerous drugs. If we can reposition the herbs into something more familiar and comfortable for people, that may yield positive results for us. I am reminded of the " Chicken Soup for the Soul: book series. Perhaps we should talk about Chinese herbs as " Chicken Soup for the Qi " or something. Any other ideas as to how to describe Chinese herbs in culturally legitimate terms? -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 All, I thought it would be good to share some of the research methods that Andrew Flower is conducting in London, England right now. He studying the effectiveness of chinese herbal medicine for endometriosis and is doing it via a method called the Delphi process. He is using indivually written prescriptions for each client according to the differentation of each individual. The delphi process combines the thinking of all the previous research done on a subject with the thinking of some of the top thinking practitioners for that particular subject. Quite a good and thorough technique. Please check out the podcast interview of Andrew here: http://www.chinesemedicinetools.com/audio-podcasts/adrew- flower/endometriosis-and-chinese-herbs-first-study-of-its Here is the article Andrew wrote about the delhpi process: http://www.chinesemedicinetools.com/article- sharing/endometriosis/using-the-delphi-process-to-develop-practice- guide Cheers, Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Al, good points. I know for one that I can easily get my patients, who really resist herbs,to go to the health food store and pick something up there. For example ,often times COPD patients benefit greatly from Cordyceps and will take that off the shelves at Whole Foods whereas they would be reluctant to take it from my pharmacy. Doug (sorry to those that get this twice) Al wrote: > familiar in American culture that has rarely been questioned but remains a > common home remedy. > > So, I researched the history of chicken soup's curative > powers<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_soup#Curative_powers>. > Some say it arose originally from the writings of Moses > Maimonides<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Maimonides>, > a 12th century rabbi in Spain. Others point to other sources including > ancient Egypt. One in vitro study even suggests that chicken soup has an > anti-inflammatory effect on the body via slowing the movement of > neutrophils<http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/118/4/1150/> > . > ----- > If we can reposition the herbs into something more familiar and comfortable > for people, that may yield positive results for us. I am reminded of the > " Chicken Soup for the Soul: book series. Perhaps we should talk about > Chinese herbs as " Chicken Soup for the Qi " or something. > > Any other ideas as to how to describe Chinese herbs in culturally legitimate > terms? > > -al. > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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