Can Hertel be taken seriously? - Could flavonoids regulate Qi?

[Guest guest]

Hi Thomas,

 

I would like to create a respectful space for your opinion.  Evidence based

randomized double blind clinical studies or not, I think everyone's opinion

should be valued.  I am of the impression that much of our medicine (acupuncture

& herbs) was developed guided by intuition.  I have personal experiences from

Taoist Qi Gong that lends to support this assertion for my own comfort sake. 

And, you could be absolutely right!  I am not trying to contradict you or say

that your ideas are inaccurate and I am not going to make an erroneous

conclusion that you are any less of a person for holding inaccurate ideas or for

basing your decision making process on some other method that you didn't

elucidate.

(I apologize for any grammatical imperfections in the past, my spelling muscles

have atrophied as a result of spell checker on Microsoft Word, and until now I

was unaware that there was even a spell checker on this email ... I will try and

do better in the future).

 

I would like to do as I always try and do and keep an open mind so that I may

remain as objective as I possibly can.  Obviously as an herbalist I have

something invested when it comes to matters concerning the use of Chinese herbal

medicine.  For example I was concerned when Ma Huang was banned and I even wrote

a letter to the NIH decision making panel.  But, I try even in times like that

to keep objective.  Another example is with the aristolochic acid deal in

Belgium weight loss trial (not to rehash that one) ... but certainly I don't

want to use something that could potentially be harmful to myself or my

patients.

 

Keeping an objective mind let's do some brain storming " mental cogitation " to

see what we come up with.  Null hypothesis = " Flavonoids do not move the Qi "

Biflavonoid is a flavonoid = True

If we can show that Biflavonoid moves the Qi then since Biflavonoid is a

Flavonoid which means that although we have not shown empirically that all

flavonoids move the Qi we have at least been able to reject the null hypothesis

as stated because one type of flavonoid the Biflavonoid type did in fact move

the Qi.  If we can show that it does that is!

 

Bioflavonoids (bioavailable flavonoids, vitamin P) are a class of water-soluble

plant pigments with antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, antiallergenic, antiviral,

and anti-carcinogenic properties.  This is the collective name given to rutin,

hesperidin (found in chen pi), and quercetin (CoQ10) and a range of other

naturally occurring compounds including the oligomeric pro-cyanidins found in

red wine ... (sounds like some potential Qi regulating properties to me)

Bioflavonoids are extremely necessary for the absorption of Vitamin C ... The

human body does not produce bioflavonoids, they must be supplied through diet. 

http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/bioflavonoids.php

 

Hesperidin has antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, hypolipidemic, vasoprotective and

anticarcinogenic and cholesterol lowering actions. Hesperdin can inhibit

following enzymes: phospholipase A2, lipoxygenase, HMG-CoA reductase and

cyclo-oxygenase (NSAID-like activity).

 

Hesperidin improves the health of capillaries by reducing the capillary

permeability.

 

Hesperidin is used to reduce hay fever and other allergic conditions by

inhibiting the release of histamine from mast cells. The possible anti-cancer

activity of hesperidin could be explained by the inhibition of polyamine

synthesis. http://www.phytochemicals.info/phytochemicals/hesperidin.php

Not necessarily functions that I would attribute to an TCM usage of chen pi but,

certainly could potentially have some Qi regulatory effects.

 

Biflavonoid is a co-factor required for the assimilation of Vitamin C.

 

We need to define what is " Moving the Qi "  there are different ways to do this

one is we can state what the functions of Qi are and that an increase in the

activity of these Qi functions is showing a result an increase in the " Moving of

the Qi " .  (Another way to do this is to look at this from the treatment of a TCM

pathophysiology.)  And, I may do this if my train of thought takes me back this

way but right now, I've got other thoughts filling my head ...

 

5 Functions of Qi:

1)  Activation - Qi is responsible for the activation of all metabolic process

of the body i.e. growth & development (G & D), etc.

2)  Warming - Qi warms the body and is responsible for the ability of the organs

to perform their functional activities

3)  Defense - Protects the body i.e. from External Pathogenic Influences

4)  Transformative action - Formation of blood & fluids, conversion of fluids

into sweat & Urine, etc.

5)  Containment - " Qi contains the blood " - prevents extravasation of blood also

prevents excessive sweating/urination.

 

Here is another Statement of Fact (that I'm sure we are all familiar with) just

thought it might come in handy to mention so that it is fresh in our mind:

" Qi is the Commander of Blood "

" Blood is the Mother of Qi "

(I can provide sources if you really need them)

 

Deficiency of Vitamin C after a few months can lead to Scurvy Sx & Sy: Bleeding

may occur under the skin (particularly around hair follicles or as bruises),

around the gums, and into the joints. The gums become swollen, purple, and

spongy. The teeth eventually loosen. The hair becomes dry and brittle, and the

skin becomes dry, rough, and scaly. Anemia may develop. Infections may develop,

and wounds do not heal.(From Merck manual)

 

The functions attributed to Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is essential for the

formation, growth, and repair of bone, skin, and connective tissue (which binds

other tissues and organs together and includes tendons, ligaments, and blood

vessels) [sounds like Growth & Development to me]. Vitamin C helps maintain

healthy teeth and gums. It helps the body absorb iron, which is needed to make

red blood cells. Vitamin C also helps burns and wounds heal. Like vitamin E,

vitamin C is an antioxidant: It protects cells against damage by free radicals,

which are by-products of normal cell activity that participate in chemical

reactions. Some of these reactions can be harmful. (From Merck manual)

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec12/ch154/ch154i.html

 

If Blood is the mother of Qi and Vitamin C helps the body make red blood cells

and one of the Sy of Vitamin C deficiency is Anemia it follows that Vitamin C

deficiency can lead to Anemia and since Blood is the mother of Qi this could

result in Qi deficiency.  Qi deficiency can also lead to rebellious Qi. 

 

Chen pi is in the category of Qi regulators and promotes the movement of Qi.

 

According to a study " Biflavonoid 1 as well 1a inhibit the activity of human DNA

topoisomerases I and II-alpha.  Cancer Weekly (2005-09-13)  DNA topoisomerases

are enzymes that control and modify the topological states of DNA in cells

http://www.icnet.uk/labs/wigley/projects/topoisomerase/topoisomerase.html

The topological state is one of the factors affecting the regulation and

expression of gene transcription in eukaroytic cells (those with a nucleus). 

I suppose that one could argue that control & modifying gene expression could be

likened to Qi regulation.  Particularly if the Biflavonoid resulted in relaxing

the super-coiling of DNA allowing for an increase in gene transcription.

 

etc. do you get where I'm going with this ...

I'm not trying to disuade you or anyone else from holding their belief that

Flavonoids do not move the Qi and I'm not trying to make a claim that Flavonoids

are responsible for the biological activity resulting in the TCM functions of

chen pi ... I'm just trying to show that there may be room for someone to have a

difference of opinion.

 

Personally I used herbal medicine for the most part from a TCM perspective which

stems from the classics (which essentially are based on experience of our

predicessors, which I find to be an invaluable resource).  Occasionally, I will

modify (jia wei a formula with an herb based on some western research that

supports a particular function of interest).  But, I would be reluctant to make

a formula based solely on western scientific findings.  In fact there was a

study in China on formula made up of only herbs that had western scientific

findings for lowering cholesterol ... according to their reported results it

failed substantially in their study.

 

As a disclaimer I didn't read throughly thru any of the research supporting the

statements that were sited for support in this email.  So, it could all be

hogwash.  The point is not to state that flavonoids are responsible for Qi

regulating properties ... the point is that it can be useful to keep an open

mind.

 

As for the vapor pressures of the flavonoids and whether or not they would be

present after boiling ... I'm going to take a pass on that exercise.

 

Thank you,

Steve

 

 

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, wrote:

 

 

Re: Can Hertel be taken seriously?

 

Friday, June 27, 2008, 6:16 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, Tim....but the flavonoids that Bensky lists are not going to make into your

decoction either, nor are they particularly important as to how they relate, or

rather don't relate, to the function of chen pi....sorry, but flavonoids do not

regulate qi, and i will stick to that statement in spite of having absolutely no

evidence based, double blind, etc, etc. research to support it.

 

Thomas

 

 

 

Beijing, China

 

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide

 

thomas@sourcepointh erbs.org

 

www.sourcepointherb s.org

 

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