Guest guest Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, a large tumor (inoperable)as I have not been consulted about such serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? Janis Marion, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am a practitioner currently undergoing chemotherapy for breast cancer. I'm not an oncologist, but I can share with you what I've learned. Golden Flower makes a (theoretically) very nice formula aimed at keeping up qi and cell counts during chemo. However, it contains shen qu, which is helpful if the patient suffers from constipation, however if the chemo has made her prone to loose stools the formula will create diarrhea, which will add to her discomfort. You might look at the ingredients and make it up yourself without the shen qu if that is an issue. It's hard to find anything that " competes " with chemo since the drugs are such strong systemic toxins. They aim to kill a flea with a sledge hammer. The chemo is so strong and good at wiping out all fast-growing cells in the body, including red and white blood cells and platelets I don't think any herbal formula can assist the blood in rebounding as quickly as it needs to between treatments. I have found that the effects of herbal formulae are unpredictable with the toxins in my body. Several of the formulae I have tried to tonify qi and blood and clear heat have made me feel worse. One assumes that these toxins create heat, but most people undergoing chemotherapy find their core body temperature drops a degree or two and often feel quite chilled. I have found, however, that acupuncture works wonders for controlling (actually eliminating) nausea and making me feel generally more balanced and energetic. Maybe it transforms all that toxic chemo qi into something useful. My pulses are radically different right after treatment and a couple days later after two acupuncture treatments. It's unusual to see a 78 year old undergo chemo. Your patient has one hell of a will to live! Nothing will stop the hair loss while treatment is going on. Since she's already being treated for an ulcer, you might suggest she eat some organic kefir a few times a day. Chemo can ulcerate the whole digestive tract and kefir, as well as acidophilis will help calm things down and prevent mouth sores as well. Her appetite, exhaustion and breathlessness are caused by the wiping out of neutrophils about eight days after each treatment. It takes two weeks for them to build up. She needs to rest a lot and not ask a lot of herself. Doctors wait until blood counts are at rock bottom before treating. If she becomes neutropenic and gets a systemic infection they'll start her on a drug called neupogen, which forces the bone marrow to produce white cells, thus restoring her immunity until it gets wiped out in the next treatment. And If she becomes seriously anemic they'll offer her a red blood cell transfusion. The younger the adult is and the better physical shape they are in the easier the process is to manage. Because everything gets wiped out with each treatment, it's difficult to find any herbal formula that could keep up with the onslaught. I couldn't imagine going through this at 78! I hope this has been helpful. Pauline Vaughan M.A. D.Ac. Natural Medicine Clinic 54 Poyntz Street Penetanguishene.ON L9M 1N6 jsmarionlac <janismarion Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:16:22 PM Chemotherapy I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, a large tumor (inoperable) as I have not been consulted about such serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? Janis Marion, LAc ________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Pauline, First of all, I wish you all the best success with your own treatment and recovery. This is a very difficult place to be. It is excellent to hear that needles are so able to comfort and control. That you confirm my assumption that herbs cannot really 'compete' is also helpful. The power of chemotherapy is daunting. As I forgot to add that my patient also suffers from constipation. I will definitely consider using the Golden Flower formula. What dosage have you found gives you results? I appreciate the dietary recommendation. I had suggested nourishing soups, easy to eat & digest, already but will encourage her to eat kefir too. Thanks, and again, the very best to you. Janis Marion, LAc , Pauline Vaughan <tcm1herbs wrote: > > I am a practitioner currently undergoing chemotherapy for breast cancer. I'm not an oncologist, but I can share with you what I've learned. Golden Flower makes a (theoretically) very nice formula aimed at keeping up qi and cell counts during chemo. However, it contains shen qu, which is helpful if the patient suffers from constipation, however if the chemo has made her prone to loose stools the formula will create diarrhea, which will add to her discomfort. You might look at the ingredients and make it up yourself without the shen qu if that is an issue. It's hard to find anything that " competes " with chemo since the drugs are such strong systemic toxins. They aim to kill a flea with a sledge hammer. The chemo is so strong and good at wiping out all fast-growing cells in the body, including red and white blood cells and platelets I don't think any herbal formula can assist the blood in rebounding as quickly as it needs to between treatments. I have > found that the effects of herbal formulae are unpredictable with the toxins in my body. Several of the formulae I have tried to tonify qi and blood and clear heat have made me feel worse. One assumes that these toxins create heat, but most people undergoing chemotherapy find their core body temperature drops a degree or two and often feel quite chilled. I have found, however, that acupuncture works wonders for controlling (actually eliminating) nausea and making me feel generally more balanced and energetic. Maybe it transforms all that toxic chemo qi into something useful. My pulses are radically different right after treatment and a couple days later after two acupuncture treatments. It's unusual to see a 78 year old undergo chemo. Your patient has one hell of a will to live! Nothing will stop the hair loss while treatment is going on. Since she's already being treated for an ulcer, you might suggest she eat some organic kefir a few times a day. Chemo > can ulcerate the whole digestive tract and kefir, as well as acidophilis will help calm things down and prevent mouth sores as well. Her appetite, exhaustion and breathlessness are caused by the wiping out of neutrophils about eight days after each treatment. It takes two weeks for them to build up. She needs to rest a lot and not ask a lot of herself. Doctors wait until blood counts are at rock bottom before treating. If she becomes neutropenic and gets a systemic infection they'll start her on a drug called neupogen, which forces the bone marrow to produce white cells, thus restoring her immunity until it gets wiped out in the next treatment. And If she becomes seriously anemic they'll offer her a red blood cell transfusion. The younger the adult is and the better physical shape they are in the easier the process is to manage. Because everything gets wiped out with each treatment, it's difficult to find any herbal formula that could keep up with the > onslaught. I couldn't imagine going through this at 78! > I hope this has been helpful. > > Pauline Vaughan M.A. D.Ac. > Natural Medicine Clinic > 54 Poyntz Street > Penetanguishene.ON > L9M 1N6 > > > > jsmarionlac <janismarion > > Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:16:22 PM > Chemotherapy > > > I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, > a large tumor (inoperable) as I have not been consulted about such > serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not > remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments > so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is > concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate > regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite > stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription > be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, > additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood > count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? > > Janis Marion, LAc > > > > > ________________ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger./ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Hello Janis: As she's elderly and fragile to start witd I'd suggest one tablet 3 times a day to start and if she's tolerating that well after a week go up to two tablets. Giovanni also make a good formula for chemo -- at least it looks good but I haven't tried it. It's quite a bit more expensive than the Golden Flower formula, which covers all the important bases anyway. In terms of diet, I would also suggest organic chicken broth,especially during the first 4 or 5 days after chemo. It's easy to digest and soothes the stomach and will keep her hydrated. Once again, the acupuncture will make a large difference in her sense of wellness as it balances the crazy chemo qi.The drugs are like sludge in the veins, so Kiiko's blood stasis combination of Liver4 and Lung5 on the left side (very superficial needling) work very well to move blood. Spleen 4,6,9 and Pc6 bilaterally ease nausea , calm the system as a whole and open channels making one feel more whole again. If you can do a treatment a few hours after chemo and again a couple days later it will make a lot of difference. ALso Ki9 bilaterally will help detoxify. If she can get down a minimum of 2 litres a day of water for the first three to four days after treatment, beginning the day of treatment, it will clear the toxins more quickly and protect her bladder and kidneys, which can be damaged by some chemo drugs. Tell your patient I'm rooting for her. It's really love that kills cancer cells, you know. Tell her to keep her heart open. Wondrous things will come in. Pauline jsmarionlac <janismarion Thursday, July 3, 2008 12:27:28 AM Re: Chemotherapy Pauline, First of all, I wish you all the best success with your own treatment and recovery. This is a very difficult place to be. It is excellent to hear that needles are so able to comfort and control. That you confirm my assumption that herbs cannot really 'compete' is also helpful. The power of chemotherapy is daunting. As I forgot to add that my patient also suffers from constipation. I will definitely consider using the Golden Flower formula. What dosage have you found gives you results? I appreciate the dietary recommendation. I had suggested nourishing soups, easy to eat & digest, already but will encourage her to eat kefir too. Thanks, and again, the very best to you. Janis Marion, LAc , Pauline Vaughan <tcm1herbs@. ..> wrote: > > I am a practitioner currently undergoing chemotherapy for breast cancer. I'm not an oncologist, but I can share with you what I've learned. Golden Flower makes a (theoretically) very nice formula aimed at keeping up qi and cell counts during chemo. However, it contains shen qu, which is helpful if the patient suffers from constipation, however if the chemo has made her prone to loose stools the formula will create diarrhea, which will add to her discomfort. You might look at the ingredients and make it up yourself without the shen qu if that is an issue. It's hard to find anything that " competes " with chemo since the drugs are such strong systemic toxins. They aim to kill a flea with a sledge hammer. The chemo is so strong and good at wiping out all fast-growing cells in the body, including red and white blood cells and platelets I don't think any herbal formula can assist the blood in rebounding as quickly as it needs to between treatments. I have > found that the effects of herbal formulae are unpredictable with the toxins in my body. Several of the formulae I have tried to tonify qi and blood and clear heat have made me feel worse. One assumes that these toxins create heat, but most people undergoing chemotherapy find their core body temperature drops a degree or two and often feel quite chilled. I have found, however, that acupuncture works wonders for controlling (actually eliminating) nausea and making me feel generally more balanced and energetic. Maybe it transforms all that toxic chemo qi into something useful. My pulses are radically different right after treatment and a couple days later after two acupuncture treatments. It's unusual to see a 78 year old undergo chemo. Your patient has one hell of a will to live! Nothing will stop the hair loss while treatment is going on. Since she's already being treated for an ulcer, you might suggest she eat some organic kefir a few times a day. Chemo > can ulcerate the whole digestive tract and kefir, as well as acidophilis will help calm things down and prevent mouth sores as well. Her appetite, exhaustion and breathlessness are caused by the wiping out of neutrophils about eight days after each treatment. It takes two weeks for them to build up. She needs to rest a lot and not ask a lot of herself. Doctors wait until blood counts are at rock bottom before treating. If she becomes neutropenic and gets a systemic infection they'll start her on a drug called neupogen, which forces the bone marrow to produce white cells, thus restoring her immunity until it gets wiped out in the next treatment. And If she becomes seriously anemic they'll offer her a red blood cell transfusion. The younger the adult is and the better physical shape they are in the easier the process is to manage. Because everything gets wiped out with each treatment, it's difficult to find any herbal formula that could keep up with the > onslaught. I couldn't imagine going through this at 78! > I hope this has been helpful. > > Pauline Vaughan M.A. D.Ac. > Natural Medicine Clinic > 54 Poyntz Street > Penetanguishene. ON > L9M 1N6 > > > > jsmarionlac <janismarion@ ...> > > Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:16:22 PM > Chemotherapy > > > I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, > a large tumor (inoperable) as I have not been consulted about such > serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not > remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments > so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is > concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate > regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite > stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription > be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, > additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood > count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? > > Janis Marion, LAc > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta. messenger. / > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Pauline, Janis, First of all, I am amazed that the doctors are putting a 78 year old woman through such a regimen, on top of all the other drugs she is doing. It is heroic therapy at its worst in my book. Pauline, I appreciate your sharing your experiences with us, as nothing is more valuable than personal experience with taking herbs and acupuncture while undergoing cancer treatment. My feelings from working with cancer patients is that you need to take very large doses of herbs to help rebound qi and blood, but that you have to treat according to pattern. If there is, for example, liver qi depression or liver fire, stomach yin vacuity, lung yin vacuity, damp heat in the large intestine, which is the case most of the time, simple prepared 'chemo formulas' simply won't work well unless they address these issues, case by case. Michael Broffman gives different prescriptions before, during and after chemotherapy, and his regimens have proved helpful with his patients. I've slowly adapted his treatment protocols as well. I agree that acupuncture/moxabustion provides immediate relief, and I feel it is essential support for cancer/ chemotherapy patients. Chinese studies have been very positive as well (I believe Blue Poppy's website has some research on this). It is, however, also easier to administer than herbal medicine, which requires more careful diagnostic acumen. On Jul 2, 2008, at 4:10 PM, Pauline Vaughan wrote: > I am a practitioner currently undergoing chemotherapy for breast > cancer. I'm not an oncologist, but I can share with you what I've > learned. Golden Flower makes a (theoretically) very nice formula > aimed at keeping up qi and cell counts during chemo. However, it > contains shen qu, which is helpful if the patient suffers from > constipation, however if the chemo has made her prone to loose > stools the formula will create diarrhea, which will add to her > discomfort. You might look at the ingredients and make it up > yourself without the shen qu if that is an issue. It's hard to find > anything that " competes " with chemo since the drugs are such strong > systemic toxins. They aim to kill a flea with a sledge hammer. The > chemo is so strong and good at wiping out all fast-growing cells in > the body, including red and white blood cells and platelets I don't > think any herbal formula can assist the blood in rebounding as > quickly as it needs to between treatments. I have > found that the effects of herbal formulae are unpredictable with the > toxins in my body. Several of the formulae I have tried to tonify qi > and blood and clear heat have made me feel worse. One assumes that > these toxins create heat, but most people undergoing chemotherapy > find their core body temperature drops a degree or two and often > feel quite chilled. I have found, however, that acupuncture works > wonders for controlling (actually eliminating) nausea and making me > feel generally more balanced and energetic. Maybe it transforms all > that toxic chemo qi into something useful. My pulses are radically > different right after treatment and a couple days later after two > acupuncture treatments. It's unusual to see a 78 year old undergo > chemo. Your patient has one hell of a will to live! Nothing will > stop the hair loss while treatment is going on. Since she's already > being treated for an ulcer, you might suggest she eat some organic > kefir a few times a day. Chemo > can ulcerate the whole digestive tract and kefir, as well as > acidophilis will help calm things down and prevent mouth sores as > well. Her appetite, exhaustion and breathlessness are caused by the > wiping out of neutrophils about eight days after each treatment. It > takes two weeks for them to build up. She needs to rest a lot and > not ask a lot of herself. Doctors wait until blood counts are at > rock bottom before treating. If she becomes neutropenic and gets a > systemic infection they'll start her on a drug called neupogen, > which forces the bone marrow to produce white cells, thus restoring > her immunity until it gets wiped out in the next treatment. And If > she becomes seriously anemic they'll offer her a red blood cell > transfusion. The younger the adult is and the better physical shape > they are in the easier the process is to manage. Because everything > gets wiped out with each treatment, it's difficult to find any > herbal formula that could keep up with the > onslaught. I couldn't imagine going through this at 78! > I hope this has been helpful. > > Pauline Vaughan M.A. D.Ac. > Natural Medicine Clinic > 54 Poyntz Street > Penetanguishene.ON > L9M 1N6 > > > jsmarionlac <janismarion > > Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:16:22 PM > Chemotherapy > > I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, > a large tumor (inoperable) as I have not been consulted about such > serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not > remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments > so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is > concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate > regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite > stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription > be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, > additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood > count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? > > Janis Marion, LAc > > ________ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new > Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger./ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Thank you, Pauline, again for sharing so much. I too am amazed that this kind of chemo regimen would be prescribed to a 78 year old woman which is why I posted it but also wondered if I am just not in the current loop of cancer therapy for the elderly enough to know/believe that the outcome statistics could be good here on any level. I initially assumed that large doses of herbs would be required but that preparing them as tea from raw herbs would be impossible for this patient. I would be delighted (so would the patient) if one GF tablet 3x a day would benefit her system. The medications she is taking already are in part in a loop of producing and relieving side effects. I understand that herbally she must be treated as she presents (i.e. the liver qi depression, liver fire, stomach yin vacuity, etc) but with a patient undergoing chemo how can you not consider and attend to that (which you don't exactly see) too. This is one of those areas where knowing what is going on in the Western world impacts my thinking about what to do herbally. For this case I do imagine the acupuncture will be welcome and beneficial as Pauline has described and has experienced for herself. I will work on the herbal aspect. Thanks, Janis , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Pauline, Janis, > First of all, I am amazed that the doctors are putting a 78 year > old woman through such a regimen, on top of all the other drugs she is > doing. It is heroic therapy at its worst in my book. > > Pauline, I appreciate your sharing your experiences with us, as > nothing is more valuable than personal experience with taking herbs > and acupuncture while undergoing cancer treatment. My feelings from > working with cancer patients is that you need to take very large doses > of herbs to help rebound qi and blood, but that you have to treat > according to pattern. If there is, for example, liver qi depression > or liver fire, stomach yin vacuity, lung yin vacuity, damp heat in the > large intestine, which is the case most of the time, simple prepared > 'chemo formulas' simply won't work well unless they address these > issues, case by case. Michael Broffman gives different prescriptions > before, during and after chemotherapy, and his regimens have proved > helpful with his patients. I've slowly adapted his treatment > protocols as well. I agree that acupuncture/moxabustion provides > immediate relief, and I feel it is essential support for cancer/ > chemotherapy patients. Chinese studies have been very positive as > well (I believe Blue Poppy's website has some research on this). It > is, however, also easier to administer than herbal medicine, which > requires more careful diagnostic acumen. > > > > On Jul 2, 2008, at 4:10 PM, Pauline Vaughan wrote: > > > I am a practitioner currently undergoing chemotherapy for breast > > cancer. I'm not an oncologist, but I can share with you what I've > > learned. Golden Flower makes a (theoretically) very nice formula > > aimed at keeping up qi and cell counts during chemo. However, it > > contains shen qu, which is helpful if the patient suffers from > > constipation, however if the chemo has made her prone to loose > > stools the formula will create diarrhea, which will add to her > > discomfort. You might look at the ingredients and make it up > > yourself without the shen qu if that is an issue. It's hard to find > > anything that " competes " with chemo since the drugs are such strong > > systemic toxins. They aim to kill a flea with a sledge hammer. The > > chemo is so strong and good at wiping out all fast-growing cells in > > the body, including red and white blood cells and platelets I don't > > think any herbal formula can assist the blood in rebounding as > > quickly as it needs to between treatments. I have > > found that the effects of herbal formulae are unpredictable with the > > toxins in my body. Several of the formulae I have tried to tonify qi > > and blood and clear heat have made me feel worse. One assumes that > > these toxins create heat, but most people undergoing chemotherapy > > find their core body temperature drops a degree or two and often > > feel quite chilled. I have found, however, that acupuncture works > > wonders for controlling (actually eliminating) nausea and making me > > feel generally more balanced and energetic. Maybe it transforms all > > that toxic chemo qi into something useful. My pulses are radically > > different right after treatment and a couple days later after two > > acupuncture treatments. It's unusual to see a 78 year old undergo > > chemo. Your patient has one hell of a will to live! Nothing will > > stop the hair loss while treatment is going on. Since she's already > > being treated for an ulcer, you might suggest she eat some organic > > kefir a few times a day. Chemo > > can ulcerate the whole digestive tract and kefir, as well as > > acidophilis will help calm things down and prevent mouth sores as > > well. Her appetite, exhaustion and breathlessness are caused by the > > wiping out of neutrophils about eight days after each treatment. It > > takes two weeks for them to build up. She needs to rest a lot and > > not ask a lot of herself. Doctors wait until blood counts are at > > rock bottom before treating. If she becomes neutropenic and gets a > > systemic infection they'll start her on a drug called neupogen, > > which forces the bone marrow to produce white cells, thus restoring > > her immunity until it gets wiped out in the next treatment. And If > > she becomes seriously anemic they'll offer her a red blood cell > > transfusion. The younger the adult is and the better physical shape > > they are in the easier the process is to manage. Because everything > > gets wiped out with each treatment, it's difficult to find any > > herbal formula that could keep up with the > > onslaught. I couldn't imagine going through this at 78! > > I hope this has been helpful. > > > > Pauline Vaughan M.A. D.Ac. > > Natural Medicine Clinic > > 54 Poyntz Street > > Penetanguishene.ON > > L9M 1N6 > > > > > > jsmarionlac <janismarion > > > > Wednesday, July 2, 2008 4:16:22 PM > > Chemotherapy > > > > I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, > > a large tumor (inoperable) as I have not been consulted about such > > serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not > > remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments > > so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is > > concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate > > regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite > > stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription > > be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, > > additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood > > count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? > > > > Janis Marion, LAc > > > > ________ > > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new > > Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger./ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Janis: I forgot to mention as well, if you check Sharon Weisenbaum's website she has some translated studies from China on herbal treatment with chemotherapy. Your patient made find herbs to be " just one more thing " she might not want to do, but that's up to her. As I say, depending on the chemo cocktail ability to tolerate herbs can vary. Pauline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 You might find poly-MVA of interest. Not Chinese medicine I know, but natural and impressive results so far. These web links will give further detail: http://www.cancerassistancecenter.org/research.html http://www.polymvahealthclub.com/index1.html Used in the trial on stage 4 cancers and gave a 2 year survival rate of 71% (the 5 year survival rate for stage 4 using conventional treatment is 2.1%). I t was shown to be particularly effective against lung, prostate and bowel cancer. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 Hello all, This doesn't answer Janis's specific question, but you may find it interesting: Chemotherapy is generally considered indispensable in the treatment of cancer, but it often lowers the quantity of white blood cells drastically. Two reports study the effect of moxibustion in preventing or treating this type of leukopenia. In one study, 114 patients had lung cancer, cancer of the esophagus, lymphoma, or other malignant tumors. They all received 1-3 courses of chemotherapy, and as a result, their white blood cells fell below 4000/mm3. Moxa cones the size of a half a Chinese date were burned on slices of ginger (0.2-0.3 cm thick) on dazhui Du14, geshu UB17, pishu UB20, weishu UB21, and shenshu UB23. Three cones were used on each point to make redness and a tolerable burning pain. Blisters were avoided. Treatment was given daily for 9 days. Other drugs to raise the white cell count were not taken during this time. Blood work was analyzed every three days. Moxibustion was stopped if the white cell count rose over 4000/mm3. Results: 44.7% reached 4000/mm3 in three days. 29.8% reached it in 6 days. 16.7% made the goal in 9 days. 8.8% failed to rise to 4000/mm3. (JTCM 1993;13(4):266-7) The 111 subjects in another study had suffered cancer of the lungs, stomach, breast, or colon. They were prescribed chemotherapy which was expected to result in bone marrow suppression. These subjects were randomly divided into two groups. After beginning chemotherapy, members of the moxibustion group received moxibustion on zusanli ST36 on one side (the side alternated each treatment). Medium-sized cones were stuck on with petroleum jelly. The cones were burned until the patient felt a small burning pain at the site. The number of cones varied for each patient. They were treated once a day. The comparison group received three days of injections of granulocyte colony stimulation factor (G-CSF) in order to stimulate the bone marrow to produce more white blood cells. Both groups had their blood drawn daily to measure WBC, starting on day 5. To summarize the results, the injections were more effective in preventing bone marrow suppression during days 5 through 9. In days 11 through 13, there were no significant statistical differences between the two groups. It seems that moxibustion is a little slower but is able to perform the same job as G-CSF. Since G-CSF can have many side-effects and is certainly more expensive than moxibustion, some may want to choose moxibustion as an alternative or may want to use it along with G-CSF. (Jilin Zhongyi Yao 2005;2:33-34) Lorraine Wilcox Ph.D., L.Ac. Chemotherapy Posted by: " jsmarionlac " janismarion jsmarionlac Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:00 pm (PDT) I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, a large tumor (inoperable) as I have not been consulted about such serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? Janis Marion, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Thank you everyone for all the information and for the wide range of treatment possibilities. The studies with moxibustion sound pretty impressive and provide protocols that we can so do for our own patients. I don't expect that I will cure this patient's cancer of course but I do see how much we have to work with. Very grateful the the group's support! Janis Marion, LAc , " Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. " <xuankong wrote: > > Hello all, > > This doesn't answer Janis's specific question, but you may find it interesting: > > Chemotherapy is generally considered indispensable in the treatment of cancer, but it often lowers the quantity of white blood cells drastically. Two reports study the effect of moxibustion in preventing or treating this type of leukopenia. > > In one study, 114 patients had lung cancer, cancer of the esophagus, lymphoma, or other malignant tumors. They all received 1-3 courses of chemotherapy, and as a result, their white blood cells fell below 4000/mm3. > > Moxa cones the size of a half a Chinese date were burned on slices of ginger (0.2-0.3 cm thick) on dazhui Du14, geshu UB17, pishu UB20, weishu UB21, and shenshu UB23. Three cones were used on each point to make redness and a tolerable burning pain. Blisters were avoided. Treatment was given daily for 9 days. Other drugs to raise the white cell count were not taken during this time. Blood work was analyzed every three days. Moxibustion was stopped if the white cell count rose over 4000/mm3. > > Results: 44.7% reached 4000/mm3 in three days. 29.8% reached it in 6 days. 16.7% made the goal in 9 days. 8.8% failed to rise to 4000/mm3. (JTCM 1993;13(4):266-7) > > The 111 subjects in another study had suffered cancer of the lungs, stomach, breast, or colon. They were prescribed chemotherapy which was expected to result in bone marrow suppression. These subjects were randomly divided into two groups. After beginning chemotherapy, members of the moxibustion group received moxibustion on zusanli ST36 on one side (the side alternated each treatment). Medium-sized cones were stuck on with petroleum jelly. The cones were burned until the patient felt a small burning pain at the site. The number of cones varied for each patient. They were treated once a day. > > The comparison group received three days of injections of granulocyte colony stimulation factor (G-CSF) in order to stimulate the bone marrow to produce more white blood cells. > > Both groups had their blood drawn daily to measure WBC, starting on day 5. To summarize the results, the injections were more effective in preventing bone marrow suppression during days 5 through 9. In days 11 through 13, there were no significant statistical differences between the two groups. > It seems that moxibustion is a little slower but is able to perform the same job as G-CSF. Since G-CSF can have many side-effects and is certainly more expensive than moxibustion, some may want to choose moxibustion as an alternative or may want to use it along with G-CSF. (Jilin Zhongyi Yao 2005;2:33-34) > > > Lorraine Wilcox Ph.D., L.Ac. > > Chemotherapy > Posted by: " jsmarionlac " janismarion jsmarionlac > Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:00 pm (PDT) > I would like insight regarding a 78 year old female with lung cancer, > a large tumor (inoperable) as I have not been consulted about such > serious cancer before. After recovering from the surgery that did not > remove the tumor, she is undergoing chemotherapy, 4 weekly treatments > so far and is scheduled for 3 more months of treatments. She is > concurrently on medication for: high blood pressure, heart rate > regulation, high cholesterol, ulcer, depression, pain, appetite > stimulation, a nebulizer and oxygen. Can a Chinese herbal prescription > be effective in managing side effects (hair loss, exhaustion, > additional appetite loss, shortness of breath, shaking, although blood > count has held)? Can herbs " compete " ? > > Janis Marion, LAc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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