anyone know anything about this?

[Guest guest]

Hi Folks,

 

A patient of mine woke up one morning, after dreaming that someone said to him

that something big was going to happen but not to worry, that it wasn't bad, and

discovered that his eyesight in the right eye was very strange. He lost his

peripheral vision, says there's essentially a hole where it used to be. This has

affected his ability to focus and see perspective, although he does say that at

times, if he concentrates on it for a few moments, he can often force depth

perception and better focus until his attention is distracted. The same day, he

also acquired a ringing (high pitch) in the left ear.

 

Has had all sorts of tests, no western MD can come up with an explanation or

treatment plan. Various tests show no signs of stroke, tumor, tear, etc.

Many months later, I've had a minimal and short-term effect with stasis

moving/breaking herbs - basically tried some blood-moving and qi moving formulas

and they slightly improved his ability to focus, had no effect on his ear

ringing or high blood pressure. I'm mostly now trying to rebuild his spleen

qi/kidney qi hoping that will help him heal. He is a long-time smoker, in his

mid-thirties, has barely controlled very high blood pressure (controlled with

pharmaceuticals, I'm not convinced he's completely compliant) since his early

20's, and is now 2 years reformed alcoholic/drug addict (no one drug, just sex,

drugs and rock 'n roll since he was a teen - more rock 'n roll and drugs than

sex, he says, but his wife's also always with him on visits down from the

mountains for his appointments). He is a musician but makes most of his living

doing something I don't understand with what I think of as imaginary money on

the internet to make money for other people - high stress, he says, even though

he's quite good at it. Drinks too much coffee and has cut down some at my

repeated nagging, as well as has cut down on the cigs, and his wife makes sure

he mostly eats reasonably well but that's also new. He's originally from Texas

and is addicted, addicted, addicted to hot sauces and considers those and the

remaining cigarrettes his final vice. Like most artists is up half the night

most nights and loves the adrenalin rush jazz from too much caffeine and cig

smoke on a tired body and mostly empty stomach. Now that he's clean, he says,

he's in worse shape physically than he was when he was drinking and not eating

and crazed with drugs.

 

Anyway, before he came to see me he found something written about something

called Deng Zhan Hua Su Pian, that he says described his condition and claimed

to be good for it. Of course he's lost his copy of what he read, and I can't

find anything about it in the resources I have. Do any of you know anything

about it or have suggestions about what to do with this most difficult, but

extremely pleasant, child of Man?

 

---Deb Marshall

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Deb Marshall "

<taichideb wrote:

>

> Anyway, before he came to see me he found something written about

something called Deng Zhan Hua Su Pian, that he says described his

condition and claimed to be good for it. Of course he's lost his copy

of what he read, and I can't find anything about it in the resources

I have. Do any of you know anything about it or have suggestions

about what to do with this most difficult, but extremely pleasant,

child of Man?

 

 

Hello Deb,

 

I don't know specifically about Deng Zhan Hua, but I did a google

search and plenty of stuff came up.

 

Try this link:

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & q=%22Deng+Zhan+Hua%22>

 

On first glance, it looks to be something used in heart disease.

 

Brian C. Allen, MSTOM

Oriental Medicine and Health Services

http://omhs.biz

[Guest guest]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Deb Marshall <taichideb wrote:

 

> Hi Folks,

>

> A patient of mine woke up one morning, after dreaming that someone said to

> him that something big was going to happen but not to worry, that it wasn't

> bad,

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are a few ways to look at dreams. I myself favor looking at the

patient's response to the dream rather than him relaying it to me for me to

project my own meaning into it. In otherwords, the story or narrative that

you've provided above isn't as important as his response to it. Was it

exciting and hopeful? Was the mood in the dream dark and foreboding? Take

his response to the dream, place that on to your five element chart and

you've at least got something on the map that we can use.

 

Lacking any particular emotional response, another way to look at dreams is

in terms of their intensity rather than the content specifically. Intense

dreams (aka dream disturbed sleep) indicates heat getting into the Heart.

This heat can arise from any of the usual suspects: Liver, Stomach, etc...

 

and discovered that his eyesight in the right eye was very strange. [...]

> The same day, he also acquired a ringing (high pitch) in the left ear.

>

 

 

 

 

Liver opens to the eye, Gallbladder channel enters the ear. I see wood, how

about you?

 

> He is a long-time smoker, in his mid-thirties, has barely controlled very

> high blood pressure (controlled with pharmaceuticals, I'm not convinced he's

> completely compliant) since his early 20's, and is now 2 years reformed

> alcoholic/drug addict (no one drug, just sex, drugs and rock 'n roll since

> he was a teen - more rock 'n roll and drugs than sex, he says,

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is smelling like an excess type constitution rather than a deficiency

type. He may have damaged his jing / qi / blood / jinye with his lifestyle,

but I'm getting that the issue here may be about extinguishing wind and/or

fire with formulas such as Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, Long Dan Xie Gan Tang

(thick tongue coat?), Zhen Gan Xi Feng Tang, or perhaps Tong Qiao Huo Xue

Tang.

 

> Anyway, before he came to see me he found something written about something

> called Deng Zhan Hua Su Pian,

>

 

 

 

 

I'm unfamliar with this

pill<http://www.leiyunshang.com.cn/en/cpjj-en/index-04.htm>.

It appears to have only one ingredient, specifically dēng zhăn xì xīn.

 

> that he says described his condition and claimed to be good for it.

>

 

 

 

Patients tend to locate those things that line up with their symptoms, but

rarely their syndrome.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Herbal MedicineThanks, Brian and Al, for the links - I'll check them out.

 

Al, I do indeed agree with you that some wind and excess is the issue, but he's

also showing signs of spleen deficiency. I tried him on Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin for

a month but it made no difference in symptoms or tongue/pulse. Hmm, his tongue

coat is thick although not grossly so, and yellow-brown although I've taken that

to be from the cigarettes. Maybe not, though. I wish I'd brought his file home

with me so I could check my memory as I write this.

 

As far as his report about his dream, he said that it was alarming as he dreamt

it, but after he woke up and discovered his eyesight was messed up, it was

comforting. At this point, it's what's keeping him from freaking out about the

eyesight.

 

Last time I saw him he said he'd been feeling kind of toxic, so he started what

he expected would be a week-long fast, something he used to do to clean out

every so often when he was heavy into the drink and drugs. He said that after 2

days he was feeling terrible, weak, shakey, exhausted, so he bulled on one more

day then stopped.

 

I'm seeing him again next week after a month's hiatus; you've given me some

ideas, I'll check them out and maybe write again with better details.

 

Thanks, everyone!

 

---Deb

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Deb,

Do you know if he's seen an opthamologist? Did he tell you what his

blood glucose was? Any other sensations (like dry eyes, blood shot,

etc etc)?

 

Geoff

 

, " Deb Marshall "

<taichideb wrote:

>

> Hi Folks,

>

> A patient of mine woke up one morning, after dreaming that someone

said to him that something big was going to happen but not to worry,

that it wasn't bad, and discovered that his eyesight in the right eye

was very strange. He lost his peripheral vision, says there's

essentially a hole where it used to be. This has affected his ability

to focus and see perspective, although he does say that at times, if

[Guest guest]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Deb Marshall <taichideb wrote:

 

> Al, I do indeed agree with you that some wind and excess is the issue, but

> he's also showing signs of spleen deficiency.

>

 

 

 

 

Do Spleen deficiencies explain the two major symptoms? Vision and hearing?

 

I tried him on Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin for a month but it made no difference in

> symptoms or tongue/pulse.

>

 

 

 

 

Lots of times its about dosage. I have had many patients (myself included)

where if they could get enough herbs down, they really worked, but it was

difficult to get them up to like 45 capsules per day. Much easier with loose

extract powders in which case it's like 2 teaspoons, three times daily.

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sounds pretty serious...

Like Al said it is excess type:

 

Right eye = excess (LV/HT internal channels)

High pitched sound = LV excess

 

I looked up the info on Google too...

Deng zhan hua su pian activates blood circulation, eliminates blood stasis;

for ischemic stroke

 

He needs to turn off medication and try some meditation (as Osho said)

 

K.

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Al Stone <al wrote:

 

> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Deb Marshall

<taichideb<taichideb%40tds.net>>

> wrote:

>

> > Hi Folks,

> >

> > A patient of mine woke up one morning, after dreaming that someone said

> to

> > him that something big was going to happen but not to worry, that it

> wasn't

> > bad,

> >

>

> There are a few ways to look at dreams. I myself favor looking at the

> patient's response to the dream rather than him relaying it to me for me to

> project my own meaning into it. In otherwords, the story or narrative that

> you've provided above isn't as important as his response to it. Was it

> exciting and hopeful? Was the mood in the dream dark and foreboding? Take

> his response to the dream, place that on to your five element chart and

> you've at least got something on the map that we can use.

>

> Lacking any particular emotional response, another way to look at dreams is

> in terms of their intensity rather than the content specifically. Intense

> dreams (aka dream disturbed sleep) indicates heat getting into the Heart.

> This heat can arise from any of the usual suspects: Liver, Stomach, etc...

>

> and discovered that his eyesight in the right eye was very strange. [...]

> > The same day, he also acquired a ringing (high pitch) in the left ear.

> >

>

> Liver opens to the eye, Gallbladder channel enters the ear. I see wood, how

> about you?

>

> > He is a long-time smoker, in his mid-thirties, has barely controlled very

> > high blood pressure (controlled with pharmaceuticals, I'm not convinced

> he's

> > completely compliant) since his early 20's, and is now 2 years reformed

> > alcoholic/drug addict (no one drug, just sex, drugs and rock 'n roll

> since

> > he was a teen - more rock 'n roll and drugs than sex, he says,

> >

>

> This is smelling like an excess type constitution rather than a deficiency

> type. He may have damaged his jing / qi / blood / jinye with his lifestyle,

> but I'm getting that the issue here may be about extinguishing wind and/or

> fire with formulas such as Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin, Long Dan Xie Gan Tang

> (thick tongue coat?), Zhen Gan Xi Feng Tang, or perhaps Tong Qiao Huo Xue

> Tang.

>

> > Anyway, before he came to see me he found something written about

> something

> > called Deng Zhan Hua Su Pian,

> >

>

> I'm unfamliar with this

> pill<http://www.leiyunshang.com.cn/en/cpjj-en/index-04.htm>.

> It appears to have only one ingredient, specifically dēng zhăn xì xīn.

>

> > that he says described his condition and claimed to be good for it.

> >

>

> Patients tend to locate those things that line up with their symptoms, but

> rarely their syndrome.

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Folks,

 

Geoff, yes, my patient has been to an opthalmologist, as well as other western

docs about this. I don't really remember if they did blood glucose tests, but

they did a wide battery of tests and nothing showed up. I'll check that, though,

next week when I get back to the office.

 

Al, no, spleen doesn't explain the main symptoms; but when I got no results from

trying to treat main symptoms of this weird thing, and since I got some small

results with blood moving and tonifying, and since he has other symptoms of

spleen and kidney deficiency, I figured it wouldn't hurt to see if it would

resolve itself if his deficiencies were addressed. Dose - well, you're right; he

seems to be able to handle the tonics in powder form, but couldn't stomach the

Tian ma... so he took pills and it's very likely not enough of them; he had a

hard time getting them down.

 

And John, meditation - this patient should be able to repeat my lecture about

meditation by heart, at this point. Not that he'll do it very often. I've

reverted to trying to get him to at least do alternate nostril breathing 3x a

day; I'll find out this week if he did it.

 

A big problem with this guy is that he's feeling like he's already given up most

the stuff he loves and is doing lots of things he doesn't like that are the

" right things, " and he feels like he's less healthy since, so he's unwilling to

regularly do more stuff he has no interest in. Partly a self-image thing, partly

he doesn't believe that stopping all the drugs and drinking, plus age, has

unmasked the mess he's made of himself and that's why he appears to be less

healthy - he suspects and would like to be told that he's actually someone for

whom drinking and drugging protects him from bad health.

 

OK, back to working on the excess. Maybe he'll take the powders mixed in yogurt.

 

Thanks, guys. More later when I have his file in front of me.

 

---Deb Marshall

 

 

[Guest guest]

I've got my patient's file in front of me, finally! Here's a much more accurate

summary of the patient with the strange eye problem:

 

He's 41, has had high BP for 20 years, controlled with western meds. Takes an

aspirin daily. Hi-pitched ear ringing in right ear began a week prior to his

dream, from which he awoke with what first seemed to be a black spot larger than

a floater in the right eye, upper part of vision, and over the next few days it

grew bigger, then the same developed in the bottom part of vision, then

peripheral vision and ability to focus were affected. He says colors are a shade

darker in that eye, and his eye, while not red or swollen or bloodshot or

otherwise visibly changed, feels like there's something in it. There is no

sensation of heat, nor is there weakness. There was some sinus numbness on the

same side (lower). He has seen an optometrist and retinal specialist and regular

MD, nothing they could determine except that there is some unexplicable swelling

in the optic nerve, and their theory is that some piece of plaque got loose and

travelled, blocking off the blood flow to the nerve.No sign of stroke.

 

Besides making his living on computer doing stressful, anxiety-ridden money

things, he's a guitarist and has pretty continual right-side muscle tension and

shoulder pain, and gets numbness/tingling if he sleeps on his right side, or

sometimes at his computer.

 

3 or 4 years ago, he had an experience wherein his face got flushed, short of

breath, had tachycardia, his eyes swelled up, and his MD decided it was some

strange allergic reaction, benedryl cleared it up. A year ago this repeated

after drinking several beers. He says his neck gets beet red but not his face,

though his earlobes still get hot.

 

He is addicted to hot sauces, to the point where he actually scarred his throat

several years ago, still has trouble swallowing pills, but he says the scarring

is getting better. He has acid reflux and stomach pain for 3+ years; drinks a

quart of coffee every day; craves salt; eats bread with vegemite on it for

lunch, nuts and chocolate in the evening, his wife feeds him a decent breakfast

when she's home but otherwise it's just coffee, and he drinks green tea when the

coffee's gone.

 

He's wakes up tired, and has his entire life. He was a premature baby, mother

not in good health in her 40's, in an incubator more than a month, lots of

bronchitis and whooping cough as a child. Had knee problems as a child, was even

on crutches at one point but he doesn't remember what the actual problems were;

has always had severe joint pain, and chronic low back pain since an injury as a

young adult.

 

Tongue shows kidney def, he has a deep short center crack with swelling on

either side of the crack, a hollow area from spleen to kidney, also short, lots

of quiver, toothmarked edges, red body, heavy yellow coat except in the center,

purple sublingual veins; pulses are slightly slow, superficial lung, spleen very

deep and thin, third right position very, very soft and deep and thin; liver is

hard, almost wiry, but fades after a moment, third position deep and soft, but

not nearly as soft as right side.

 

Quite a mix of mess. I'd be grateful for any and all comments now I've provided

the rest of the story!

 

---Deb Marshall

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Deb,

Did the optometrist, retinal specialist or his MD, rule out herpes

zoster ophthalmicus or herpes simplex type 1?

 

Samuelle Easton ND, LAc candidate

New York, NY

 

 

, " Deb Marshall "

<taichideb wrote:

>

> I've got my patient's file in front of me, finally! Here's a much

more accurate summary of the patient with the strange eye problem:

>

> He's 41, has had high BP for 20 years, controlled with western

meds. Takes an aspirin daily. Hi-pitched ear ringing in right ear

began a week prior to his dream, from which he awoke with what first

seemed to be a black spot larger than a floater in the right eye,

upper part of vision, and over the next few days it grew bigger,

then the same developed in the bottom part of vision, then

peripheral vision and ability to focus were affected. He says colors

are a shade darker in that eye, and his eye, while not red or

swollen or bloodshot or otherwise visibly changed, feels like

there's something in it. There is no sensation of heat, nor is there

weakness. There was some sinus numbness on the same side (lower). He

has seen an optometrist and retinal specialist and regular MD,

nothing they could determine except that there is some unexplicable

swelling in the optic nerve, and their theory is that some piece of

plaque got loose and travelled, blocking off the blood flow to the

nerve.No sign of stroke.

>

> Besides making his living on computer doing stressful, anxiety-

ridden money things, he's a guitarist and has pretty continual right-

side muscle tension and shoulder pain, and gets numbness/tingling if

he sleeps on his right side, or sometimes at his computer.

>

> 3 or 4 years ago, he had an experience wherein his face got

flushed, short of breath, had tachycardia, his eyes swelled up, and

his MD decided it was some strange allergic reaction, benedryl

cleared it up. A year ago this repeated after drinking several

beers. He says his neck gets beet red but not his face, though his

earlobes still get hot.

>

> He is addicted to hot sauces, to the point where he actually

scarred his throat several years ago, still has trouble swallowing

pills, but he says the scarring is getting better. He has acid

reflux and stomach pain for 3+ years; drinks a quart of coffee every

day; craves salt; eats bread with vegemite on it for lunch, nuts and

chocolate in the evening, his wife feeds him a decent breakfast when

she's home but otherwise it's just coffee, and he drinks green tea

when the coffee's gone.

>

> He's wakes up tired, and has his entire life. He was a premature

baby, mother not in good health in her 40's, in an incubator more

than a month, lots of bronchitis and whooping cough as a child. Had

knee problems as a child, was even on crutches at one point but he

doesn't remember what the actual problems were; has always had

severe joint pain, and chronic low back pain since an injury as a

young adult.

>

> Tongue shows kidney def, he has a deep short center crack with

swelling on either side of the crack, a hollow area from spleen to

kidney, also short, lots of quiver, toothmarked edges, red body,

heavy yellow coat except in the center, purple sublingual veins;

pulses are slightly slow, superficial lung, spleen very deep and

thin, third right position very, very soft and deep and thin; liver

is hard, almost wiry, but fades after a moment, third position deep

and soft, but not nearly as soft as right side.

>

> Quite a mix of mess. I'd be grateful for any and all comments now

I've provided the rest of the story!

>

> ---Deb Marshall

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Deb Marshall " <taichideb wrote:

>

> I've got my patient's file in front of me, finally! Here's a much more

accurate summary of

the patient with the strange eye problem:

>

 

Hi Debbie,

was looking through your recent notes, as well as the previous ones, and

wondered if there

is a clue in the stomach? Although the eyes are mostly associated with the liver

and

gallbladder, considering that the stomach channel connects with the eyes,

coupled with

his history of heat (if not phlegm) in the stomach, I wonder if this might be an

area of

exploration as well as the liver and blood stasis.

 

Do you practice acupuncture as well as herbs, and if so have you had better

result with any

of the local eye points? What does the area around the eye feel like on

palpation?

 

I recently had success treating pressure behind the eye of a patient thought

treating the

stomach channel. The patient had a history of heavy smoking and stress, and had

recently

been on a training holiday, and switched to nicotine lozenges (seemingly

introducing heat

in the stomach). She also described herself as being very sensitive to the warm

morning

wind whilst on holiday, feeling like it was ripping through her intestines. On

palpation,

there was swelling by St2 to St3. Treatment of the stomach channels (as well as

the liver)

proved successful for the eye condition and also cleared acute eczema that had

appeared

at the same time (along the large intestine channel).

 

Regards,

Mette

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

Samuelle, I'm not sure which tests my patient's eye guys and md ran, just that

it was a number of them. I'll ask about herpes, I'm guessing it didn't come up

since there seems to be no other symptoms of herpes.

 

Mette, his eye isn't red or obviously swollen to look at or to touch, no heat

sensation, and I didn't really palpate so much as feel the area and look for

anything that might be unusual. Nothing looked odd, no unusual veins or colors

or so on. I think it's safe to say there's some sort of stomach stuff going on,

and maybe it does connect; I'll explore that when I see him next (2 weeks). I

did some acupuncture on that side of the face, near ear and surrounding eye, but

mostly for qi stagnation and ST 36.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. This is either going to be on-going, or he's going

to give up on me. He's quite annoyed that I don't get and can't find how clearly

perfect that darned herb would be for him. I admit, I'm a bad internet troller

but all I find is papers or reports on its use in cardiac patients, and no

materia medica info on the actual properties.

 

---Deb Marshall

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The perfect herb (!) in my opinion would be Cang Zhu given the heavy

coat and its function of " clearing the eyes " . (sorry I don't have

Bensky in front of me. All the internet indications are fuzzy, pardon

the pun)

Doug

 

 

 

, " Deb Marshall "

<taichideb wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> Samuelle, I'm not sure which tests my patient's eye guys and md ran,

just that it was a number of them. I'll ask about herpes, I'm guessing

it didn't come up since there seems to be no other symptoms of herpes.

>

> Mette, his eye isn't red or obviously swollen to look at or to

touch, no heat sensation, and I didn't really palpate so much as feel

the area and look for anything that might be unusual. Nothing looked

odd, no unusual veins or colors or so on. I think it's safe to say

there's some sort of stomach stuff going on, and maybe it does

connect; I'll explore that when I see him next (2 weeks). I did some

acupuncture on that side of the face, near ear and surrounding eye,

but mostly for qi stagnation and ST 36.

>

> Thanks for the suggestions. This is either going to be on-going, or

he's going to give up on me. He's quite annoyed that I don't get and

can't find how clearly perfect that darned herb would be for him. I

admit, I'm a bad internet troller but all I find is papers or reports

on its use in cardiac patients, and no materia medica info on the

actual properties.

>

> ---Deb Marshall

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

Ha! And they blur the issue, too.

 

Thanks for the Cang Zhu suggestion.

 

---Deb