Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Dear Ann and Tim, I agree with much of what you write. And patients who show some of the other signs or causes of possible Magnesium deficiency ( high stress lifestyle, bone spurs, calcium deposits including atherosclerosis, compromised sleep, muscle spasms, and compromised liver function) but without a tendency towards constipation I would agree that it would be prudent to consider Mg Glycinate or Mg Malate. The advantage of Mg Glycinate is, that to the best of my knowledge, it is the most highly absorbed form of Mg, Whereas the advantage of Mg Malate is that, from what I know anecdotally, Malate, provides the additional benefit of symptomatically ameliorating fibromyalgia. I also like the idea that it chelates aluminum. Thanks for the info! Concerning the question of when to take it, a consideration would certainly be the patient's levels of HCl. If a patient has adequate HCl, then, again, I would encourage taking with meals, to break it down and make it bioavailable, and if not, then between meals when food in the stomach is not competing with the chelated molecule. Thank you both again for teaching me and helping me become a more educated practitioner! --- On Fri, 7/18/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: A Brameier <snakeoil.works Re: Why I like magnesium citrate specifically Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:09 PM Yehuda, Thing is I've heard rather the opposite re MgCit. It is a weak chelation compared to MgGly and therefore more susceptible of cleaving, releasing free Mg, which, being hydrophilic, attracts water into the L.I. It seems that I have heard that if one were taking MgGly to optimize absorption, one would take it away from meals to minimize exposure to the hydrochloric acid which would be more apt to cleave the chelation. Therefore taking it with food would more likely RAISE the quantity of free Mg that would wind up in the intestines; free Mg is less absorbable but does attract water to " irrigate " the stool. If one already gets 2-3 good and comfortable BMs per day, one doesn't need the MgCit and, in fact, 'wouldn't be prudent'. But if you think most of your patients are full of it, then you better stay with the MgCit. 8-) ann On Jul 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Jason, > > I appreciate your insight. I am always looking for informative > tools to determine cellular levels of minerals, and other > nutritional substances with some level of credibility. I believe > that our wise Creator is constantly speaking to us and it is > incumbant upon us to listen. Of course, there are many different > laxatives, each using different mechanism to bring on bowel > movements, whether they be minerals or herbs. Da Huang, for > example, works directly on the large intestine, increasing > contraction and peristalsis, It has no effect on the small > intestine, and, therefore, doesn't interfere with nutrient > absorption. It also has a hepatoprotective and nephroprotective > effect, protecting against both liver and kidney damage. Dang Gui, > strongly nourishes the blood and increases circulation by > decreasing blood viscosity, thus treating constipation induced by > dryness and stagnation. Magnesium citrate, on the other hand, is a > saline > osmotic, > isa > containing about 11% magnesium, which attacts water to the > intestines. Though when used specifically as a laxative, it is > recommended to be taken on an empty stomach to facilitate bowel > movements, I, however, always recommend taking it WITH meals to > minimize this effect and maximize absorption. > > Let me tell you why I am so keen on supplementing with Mag Cit. > Our society breeds stress, and stress stimulates the sympathetic > nervous system (the " fight or flight " mechanism). When under > stresses such as psychological stress or low blood sugar levels > (hypoglycemia) our adrenal glands release the class of > neurotransmitter hormones called catecholamines. The most abundant > catecholamines are epinephrine, noepinephrine, dopamine and > tyrosine. These catecholamines wreak havoc including depleting > the body of magnesium. But it is also interesting to note that one > of the classic manifestations of sympathetic overstimulation is > constipation. Like I said, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that > for people under stress (do you know anyone not?), it is imperative > that they receive adequate magnesium (we've spoken before about its > amazing benefits), which so easily is depleted, and maintain > appropriate elimination. To me, that means > formed soft daily bowel movements. And unless it is > contraindicated as in with obstruction, by regulating and > determining the right dose to maintain such elimination, we promote > greater wellness and balance in the face of stress. > > Respectfully, > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > RE: Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 PM > > Y, > > I understand your thinking, although I wonder if one can really > correlate > one's level of bowel tolerance to what one needs on a cellular > level (i.e. > muscles). Meaning, just because someone has a laxative effect does > not mean > that this is all one needs on a cellular level. Some people have > very easy > bowel moving tendencies (esp with citrate) yet need a much larger > dose to > change there tight muscles etc. Therefore I almost always use > glycinate. > Furthermore, I see no reason to provoke someone's bowels. If > someone does > have constipation, IME, Citrate usually does nothing to correct the > underlying problem and just acts a laxative. Although I agree this > can be > useful in some situations. > > Further comments? > > -Jason > > _____ > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > frischman > Friday, July 18, 2008 5:19 PM > > Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > Mg Glycinate is a really nice form of Magnesium, is inexpensive and is > highly absorbable, thus requiring a much smaller dose. It's also > one of the > few forms of Mg. that doesn't have a laxative effect. It's > therefore the > perfect alternative for the patient who is tends to have loose > bowels or is > mechanically compromised (eg from surgery, obstruction, or immune > dysfunction) . However, What I like about pure Mg Citrate powder for > everyone else, is that its laxative effect I find to be a like a > barometer > to determine the dose that fits for each patient. I generally start > with > 1/3 teaspoon TID, with meals, and go from there. What I am looking > for is a > daily bowel movement which is soft and formed, but certainly not > mushy. > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, <@chineseme d > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > <@chineseme d > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > RE: Recommended topicals & ointments > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > roups.com> > . com > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 AM > > Yehuda, > > Why not just use Mg glycinate? > > -Jason > > _____ > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > frischman > Friday, July 18, 2008 1:39 AM > > Re: Recommended topicals & ointments > > Dear Dave, > > Two things: > > 1. I hate using " one shoe fits all " medicines to treat symptoms, > especially > topically, but if you can find it, and the patient is showing signs > of cold, > or spleen Qi or Yang vacuity, along with the pain a wonderful topical > medicine is Feng Shi You (BTW, I haven't been able to find it in LA > for > about 3 months). > > 2. That being said, almost without exception, the patients that I have > treated with pain and muscle spasms have been deficient in > Magnesium. I use > Now brand Magnesium Citrate in powder form, and prescribe 1/3 > teaspoon TID > with meals-to start. If this produces loose bowels or diarrrhea, > cut back > to 1/4 teaspoon BID, and keep adjusting until your patient finds > the perfect > dose. > > Good Luck, > > Yehuda > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) > <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> wrote: > > dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> > Recommended topicals & ointments > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > roups.com> > . com > Thursday, July 17, 2008, 10:28 AM > > CHA Members, > > Please recommend any topical products you have found helpful in > treating pain and muscle spasm. Unfortunately I don't have time to > make it myself anymore, so I'm looking for companies products that you > have found useful in the clinic. I believe there was a company > mentioned that specialized in topical applications but I cannot find > the info. I'm hoping to find a herbal massage oil, ointments and > plasters or the like. Thank you for any help you can offer. > > Best Wishes, > Dave v > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Yehuda, Still, it seems that it is the HCl that " breaks down " the Mg chelation - but you don't want to cleave the chelation. It is the chelated molecule that is better absorbed (the amino acid acts as a carrier through the intestinal wall -- that's the purpose of taking chelated minerals); when the amino acid is removed the free-floating Mg will then be less absorbable and more hydrophilic and attract water. That's why MgCit is more of a 'stool-softener' - it's a looser chelation, allowing for some absorption, but also some release of the elemental Mg so it can pull water back into the LI. It may make sense, as Tim says, that the food buffers HCl at the beginning of a meal, making it less acidic. This may be difficult to predict with individuals, given the variations in secretion, due to stress and other factors, including the diet itself. His comment that the higher pH is the reason for giving probiotics with food is puzzling. I thought that the meaning of acidophilus is 'acid-loving' -- thus more viable with food for that reason. I will have to check on this further. But I have also heard that the reason that some people may still get a stool-loosening effect with MgGly is that they have high levels of HCl, some even on an empty stomach. If anybody understands this differently, please chime in. Ann On Jul 20, 2008, at 2:58 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Ann and Tim, > > I agree with much of what you write. And patients who show some of > the other signs or causes of possible Magnesium deficiency ( high > stress lifestyle, bone spurs, calcium deposits including > atherosclerosis, compromised sleep, muscle spasms, and compromised > liver function) but without a tendency towards constipation I would > agree that it would be prudent to consider Mg Glycinate or Mg > Malate. The advantage of Mg Glycinate is, that to the best of my > knowledge, it is the most highly absorbed form of Mg, Whereas the > advantage of Mg Malate is that, from what I know anecdotally, > Malate, provides the additional benefit of symptomatically > ameliorating fibromyalgia. I also like the idea that it chelates > aluminum. Thanks for the info! Concerning the question of when > to take it, a consideration would certainly be the patient's levels > of HCl. If a patient has adequate HCl, then, again, I would > encourage taking with meals, to break it down > and make it bioavailable, and if not, then between meals when food > in the stomach is not competing with the chelated molecule. > > Thank you both again for teaching me and helping me become a more > educated practitioner! > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > A Brameier <snakeoil.works > Re: Why I like magnesium citrate specifically > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:09 PM > > Yehuda, > Thing is I've heard rather the opposite re MgCit. It is a weak > chelation compared to MgGly and therefore more susceptible of > cleaving, releasing free Mg, which, being hydrophilic, attracts water > into the L.I. It seems that I have heard that if one were taking > MgGly to optimize absorption, one would take it away from meals to > minimize exposure to the hydrochloric acid which would be more apt to > cleave the chelation. Therefore taking it with food would more likely > RAISE the quantity of free Mg that would wind up in the intestines; > free Mg is less absorbable but does attract water to " irrigate " the > stool. If one already gets 2-3 good and comfortable BMs per day, one > doesn't need the MgCit and, in fact, 'wouldn't be prudent'. But if > you think most of your patients are full of it, then you better stay > with the MgCit. > 8-) > > ann > > On Jul 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Jason, > > > > I appreciate your insight. I am always looking for informative > > tools to determine cellular levels of minerals, and other > > nutritional substances with some level of credibility. I believe > > that our wise Creator is constantly speaking to us and it is > > incumbant upon us to listen. Of course, there are many different > > laxatives, each using different mechanism to bring on bowel > > movements, whether they be minerals or herbs. Da Huang, for > > example, works directly on the large intestine, increasing > > contraction and peristalsis, It has no effect on the small > > intestine, and, therefore, doesn't interfere with nutrient > > absorption. It also has a hepatoprotective and nephroprotective > > effect, protecting against both liver and kidney damage. Dang Gui, > > strongly nourishes the blood and increases circulation by > > decreasing blood viscosity, thus treating constipation induced by > > dryness and stagnation. Magnesium citrate, on the other hand, is a > > saline > > osmotic, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isa > > containing about 11% magnesium, which attacts water to the > > intestines. Though when used specifically as a laxative, it is > > recommended to be taken on an empty stomach to facilitate bowel > > movements, I, however, always recommend taking it WITH meals to > > minimize this effect and maximize absorption. > > > > Let me tell you why I am so keen on supplementing with Mag Cit. > > Our society breeds stress, and stress stimulates the sympathetic > > nervous system (the " fight or flight " mechanism). When under > > stresses such as psychological stress or low blood sugar levels > > (hypoglycemia) our adrenal glands release the class of > > neurotransmitter hormones called catecholamines. The most abundant > > catecholamines are epinephrine, noepinephrine, dopamine and > > tyrosine. These catecholamines wreak havoc including depleting > > the body of magnesium. But it is also interesting to note that one > > of the classic manifestations of sympathetic overstimulation is > > constipation. Like I said, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that > > for people under stress (do you know anyone not?), it is imperative > > that they receive adequate magnesium (we've spoken before about its > > amazing benefits), which so easily is depleted, and maintain > > appropriate elimination. To me, that means > > formed soft daily bowel movements. And unless it is > > contraindicated as in with obstruction, by regulating and > > determining the right dose to maintain such elimination, we promote > > greater wellness and balance in the face of stress. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: > > > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > > RE: Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 PM > > > > Y, > > > > I understand your thinking, although I wonder if one can really > > correlate > > one's level of bowel tolerance to what one needs on a cellular > > level (i.e. > > muscles). Meaning, just because someone has a laxative effect does > > not mean > > that this is all one needs on a cellular level. Some people have > > very easy > > bowel moving tendencies (esp with citrate) yet need a much larger > > dose to > > change there tight muscles etc. Therefore I almost always use > > glycinate. > > Furthermore, I see no reason to provoke someone's bowels. If > > someone does > > have constipation, IME, Citrate usually does nothing to correct the > > underlying problem and just acts a laxative. Although I agree this > > can be > > useful in some situations. > > > > Further comments? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > frischman > > Friday, July 18, 2008 5:19 PM > > > > Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > Mg Glycinate is a really nice form of Magnesium, is inexpensive > and is > > highly absorbable, thus requiring a much smaller dose. It's also > > one of the > > few forms of Mg. that doesn't have a laxative effect. It's > > therefore the > > perfect alternative for the patient who is tends to have loose > > bowels or is > > mechanically compromised (eg from surgery, obstruction, or immune > > dysfunction) . However, What I like about pure Mg Citrate powder for > > everyone else, is that its laxative effect I find to be a like a > > barometer > > to determine the dose that fits for each patient. I generally start > > with > > 1/3 teaspoon TID, with meals, and go from there. What I am looking > > for is a > > daily bowel movement which is soft and formed, but certainly not > > mushy. > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, <@chineseme d > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > > > <@chineseme d > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > > RE: Recommended topicals & ointments > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > roups.com> > > . com > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 AM > > > > Yehuda, > > > > Why not just use Mg glycinate? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > frischman > > Friday, July 18, 2008 1:39 AM > > > > Re: Recommended topicals & ointments > > > > Dear Dave, > > > > Two things: > > > > 1. I hate using " one shoe fits all " medicines to treat symptoms, > > especially > > topically, but if you can find it, and the patient is showing signs > > of cold, > > or spleen Qi or Yang vacuity, along with the pain a wonderful > topical > > medicine is Feng Shi You (BTW, I haven't been able to find it in LA > > for > > about 3 months). > > > > 2. That being said, almost without exception, the patients that I > have > > treated with pain and muscle spasms have been deficient in > > Magnesium. I use > > Now brand Magnesium Citrate in powder form, and prescribe 1/3 > > teaspoon TID > > with meals-to start. If this produces loose bowels or diarrrhea, > > cut back > > to 1/4 teaspoon BID, and keep adjusting until your patient finds > > the perfect > > dose. > > > > Good Luck, > > > > Yehuda > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) > > <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> wrote: > > > > dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> > > Recommended topicals & ointments > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > roups.com> > > . com > > Thursday, July 17, 2008, 10:28 AM > > > > CHA Members, > > > > Please recommend any topical products you have found helpful in > > treating pain and muscle spasm. Unfortunately I don't have time to > > make it myself anymore, so I'm looking for companies products > that you > > have found useful in the clinic. I believe there was a company > > mentioned that specialized in topical applications but I cannot find > > the info. I'm hoping to find a herbal massage oil, ointments and > > plasters or the like. Thank you for any help you can offer. > > > > Best Wishes, > > Dave v > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Dear Ann, I understand what you are saying. Of course you don't want to cleave (cleavage is the splitting of complex molecule into two or more simpler molecules) the chelated bond, it is the delivery system that makes the mineral bio-available, and the presence of HCl causes the amino acid bond to break down leaving the pure elemental magnesium which the body has difficulty using, causing the hydrophilia and resulting diarrhea. But I am not talking about chelated magnesium, I am talking about pure magnesium citrate powder. When using citric acid as a carrier as opposed to an amino acid which lends itself to the problem you mention of cleavage, there is much greater absorption. As a matter of fact, there have been double blind studies that show magnesium citrate has better absorption than not only magnesium oxide (essentially elemental) but also Magnesium chelate! Here's one such study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14596323. --- On Sun, 7/20/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: A Brameier <snakeoil.works Re: magnesium options Sunday, July 20, 2008, 11:25 AM Yehuda, Still, it seems that it is the HCl that " breaks down " the Mg chelation - but you don't want to cleave the chelation. It is the chelated molecule that is better absorbed (the amino acid acts as a carrier through the intestinal wall -- that's the purpose of taking chelated minerals); when the amino acid is removed the free-floating Mg will then be less absorbable and more hydrophilic and attract water. That's why MgCit is more of a 'stool-softener' - it's a looser chelation, allowing for some absorption, but also some release of the elemental Mg so it can pull water back into the LI. It may make sense, as Tim says, that the food buffers HCl at the beginning of a meal, making it less acidic. This may be difficult to predict with individuals, given the variations in secretion, due to stress and other factors, including the diet itself. His comment that the higher pH is the reason for giving probiotics with food is puzzling. I thought that the meaning of acidophilus is 'acid-loving' -- thus more viable with food for that reason. I will have to check on this further. But I have also heard that the reason that some people may still get a stool-loosening effect with MgGly is that they have high levels of HCl, some even on an empty stomach. If anybody understands this differently, please chime in. Ann On Jul 20, 2008, at 2:58 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Ann and Tim, > > I agree with much of what you write. And patients who show some of > the other signs or causes of possible Magnesium deficiency ( high > stress lifestyle, bone spurs, calcium deposits including > atherosclerosis, compromised sleep, muscle spasms, and compromised > liver function) but without a tendency towards constipation I would > agree that it would be prudent to consider Mg Glycinate or Mg > Malate. The advantage of Mg Glycinate is, that to the best of my > knowledge, it is the most highly absorbed form of Mg, Whereas the > advantage of Mg Malate is that, from what I know anecdotally, > Malate, provides the additional benefit of symptomatically > ameliorating fibromyalgia. I also like the idea that it chelates > aluminum. Thanks for the info! Concerning the question of when > to take it, a consideration would certainly be the patient's levels > of HCl. If a patient has adequate HCl, then, again, I would > encourage taking with meals, to break it down > and make it bioavailable, and if not, then between meals when food > in the stomach is not competing with the chelated molecule. > > Thank you both again for teaching me and helping me become a more > educated practitioner! > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> wrote: > > A Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> > Re: Why I like magnesium citrate specifically > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:09 PM > > Yehuda, > Thing is I've heard rather the opposite re MgCit. It is a weak > chelation compared to MgGly and therefore more susceptible of > cleaving, releasing free Mg, which, being hydrophilic, attracts water > into the L.I. It seems that I have heard that if one were taking > MgGly to optimize absorption, one would take it away from meals to > minimize exposure to the hydrochloric acid which would be more apt to > cleave the chelation. Therefore taking it with food would more likely > RAISE the quantity of free Mg that would wind up in the intestines; > free Mg is less absorbable but does attract water to " irrigate " the > stool. If one already gets 2-3 good and comfortable BMs per day, one > doesn't need the MgCit and, in fact, 'wouldn't be prudent'. But if > you think most of your patients are full of it, then you better stay > with the MgCit. > 8-) > > ann > > On Jul 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Jason, > > > > I appreciate your insight. I am always looking for informative > > tools to determine cellular levels of minerals, and other > > nutritional substances with some level of credibility. I believe > > that our wise Creator is constantly speaking to us and it is > > incumbant upon us to listen. Of course, there are many different > > laxatives, each using different mechanism to bring on bowel > > movements, whether they be minerals or herbs. Da Huang, for > > example, works directly on the large intestine, increasing > > contraction and peristalsis, It has no effect on the small > > intestine, and, therefore, doesn't interfere with nutrient > > absorption. It also has a hepatoprotective and nephroprotective > > effect, protecting against both liver and kidney damage. Dang Gui, > > strongly nourishes the blood and increases circulation by > > decreasing blood viscosity, thus treating constipation induced by > > dryness and stagnation. Magnesium citrate, on the other hand, is a > > saline > > osmotic, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isa > > containing about 11% magnesium, which attacts water to the > > intestines. Though when used specifically as a laxative, it is > > recommended to be taken on an empty stomach to facilitate bowel > > movements, I, however, always recommend taking it WITH meals to > > minimize this effect and maximize absorption. > > > > Let me tell you why I am so keen on supplementing with Mag Cit. > > Our society breeds stress, and stress stimulates the sympathetic > > nervous system (the " fight or flight " mechanism). When under > > stresses such as psychological stress or low blood sugar levels > > (hypoglycemia) our adrenal glands release the class of > > neurotransmitter hormones called catecholamines. The most abundant > > catecholamines are epinephrine, noepinephrine, dopamine and > > tyrosine. These catecholamines wreak havoc including depleting > > the body of magnesium. But it is also interesting to note that one > > of the classic manifestations of sympathetic overstimulation is > > constipation. Like I said, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that > > for people under stress (do you know anyone not?), it is imperative > > that they receive adequate magnesium (we've spoken before about its > > amazing benefits), which so easily is depleted, and maintain > > appropriate elimination. To me, that means > > formed soft daily bowel movements. And unless it is > > contraindicated as in with obstruction, by regulating and > > determining the right dose to maintain such elimination, we promote > > greater wellness and balance in the face of stress. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, > > <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> wrote: > > > > <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> > > RE: Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 PM > > > > Y, > > > > I understand your thinking, although I wonder if one can really > > correlate > > one's level of bowel tolerance to what one needs on a cellular > > level (i.e. > > muscles). Meaning, just because someone has a laxative effect does > > not mean > > that this is all one needs on a cellular level. Some people have > > very easy > > bowel moving tendencies (esp with citrate) yet need a much larger > > dose to > > change there tight muscles etc. Therefore I almost always use > > glycinate. > > Furthermore, I see no reason to provoke someone's bowels. If > > someone does > > have constipation, IME, Citrate usually does nothing to correct the > > underlying problem and just acts a laxative. Although I agree this > > can be > > useful in some situations. > > > > Further comments? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > frischman > > Friday, July 18, 2008 5:19 PM > > > > Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > Mg Glycinate is a really nice form of Magnesium, is inexpensive > and is > > highly absorbable, thus requiring a much smaller dose. It's also > > one of the > > few forms of Mg. that doesn't have a laxative effect. It's > > therefore the > > perfect alternative for the patient who is tends to have loose > > bowels or is > > mechanically compromised (eg from surgery, obstruction, or immune > > dysfunction) . However, What I like about pure Mg Citrate powder for > > everyone else, is that its laxative effect I find to be a like a > > barometer > > to determine the dose that fits for each patient. I generally start > > with > > 1/3 teaspoon TID, with meals, and go from there. What I am looking > > for is a > > daily bowel movement which is soft and formed, but certainly not > > mushy. > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, <@chineseme d > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > > > <@chineseme d > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > > RE: Recommended topicals & ointments > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > roups.com> > > . com > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 AM > > > > Yehuda, > > > > Why not just use Mg glycinate? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > frischman > > Friday, July 18, 2008 1:39 AM > > > > Re: Recommended topicals & ointments > > > > Dear Dave, > > > > Two things: > > > > 1. I hate using " one shoe fits all " medicines to treat symptoms, > > especially > > topically, but if you can find it, and the patient is showing signs > > of cold, > > or spleen Qi or Yang vacuity, along with the pain a wonderful > topical > > medicine is Feng Shi You (BTW, I haven't been able to find it in LA > > for > > about 3 months). > > > > 2. That being said, almost without exception, the patients that I > have > > treated with pain and muscle spasms have been deficient in > > Magnesium. I use > > Now brand Magnesium Citrate in powder form, and prescribe 1/3 > > teaspoon TID > > with meals-to start. If this produces loose bowels or diarrrhea, > > cut back > > to 1/4 teaspoon BID, and keep adjusting until your patient finds > > the perfect > > dose. > > > > Good Luck, > > > > Yehuda > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) > > <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> wrote: > > > > dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> > > Recommended topicals & ointments > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > roups.com> > > . com > > Thursday, July 17, 2008, 10:28 AM > > > > CHA Members, > > > > Please recommend any topical products you have found helpful in > > treating pain and muscle spasm. Unfortunately I don't have time to > > make it myself anymore, so I'm looking for companies products > that you > > have found useful in the clinic. I believe there was a company > > mentioned that specialized in topical applications but I cannot find > > the info. I'm hoping to find a herbal massage oil, ointments and > > plasters or the like. Thank you for any help you can offer. > > > > Best Wishes, > > Dave v > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Yehuda, It's been known for some time that Mg Oxide is poorly absorbed (about 4% or something) and therefore can't be used as a standard. To talk about an " amino acid chelate " is not really saying much, as there are many kinds, with differing degrees of strength of chelation. There are even different types of Mg Gly, for example. Albion labs has patented the process and has different patent numbers for each type, a higher patent number of MgGly, for example, representing a higher level (stronger) of chelation. I believe it has been established that Mg Gly is more absorbable than Mg Cit - and the reason for that is the strength of the chelation. A study just comparing generic amino acid chelates to MgCit is not that illuminating. I will try to find a better study for you. Ann On Jul 20, 2008, at 4:43 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Ann, > > I understand what you are saying. Of course you don't want to > cleave (cleavage is the splitting of complex molecule into two or > more simpler molecules) the chelated bond, it is the delivery > system that makes the mineral bio-available, and the presence of > HCl causes the amino acid bond to break down leaving the pure > elemental magnesium which the body has difficulty using, causing > the hydrophilia and resulting diarrhea. But I am not talking > about chelated magnesium, I am talking about pure magnesium citrate > powder. When using citric acid as a carrier as opposed to an amino > acid which lends itself to the problem you mention of cleavage, > there is much greater absorption. As a matter of fact, there have > been double blind studies that show magnesium citrate has better > absorption than not only magnesium oxide (essentially elemental) > but also Magnesium chelate! Here's one such study: http:// > www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14596323. > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/20/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > A Brameier <snakeoil.works > Re: magnesium options > > Sunday, July 20, 2008, 11:25 AM > > Yehuda, > Still, it seems that it is the HCl that " breaks down " the Mg > chelation - but you don't want to cleave the chelation. It is the > chelated molecule that is better absorbed (the amino acid acts as a > carrier through the intestinal wall -- that's the purpose of taking > chelated minerals); when the amino acid is removed the free-floating > Mg will then be less absorbable and more hydrophilic and attract > water. That's why MgCit is more of a 'stool-softener' - it's a looser > chelation, allowing for some absorption, but also some release of the > elemental Mg so it can pull water back into the LI. > > It may make sense, as Tim says, that the food buffers HCl at the > beginning of a meal, making it less acidic. This may be difficult to > predict with individuals, given the variations in secretion, due to > stress and other factors, including the diet itself. His comment that > the higher pH is the reason for giving probiotics with food is > puzzling. I thought that the meaning of acidophilus is 'acid-loving' > -- thus more viable with food for that reason. I will have to check > on this further. But I have also heard that the reason that some > people may still get a stool-loosening effect with MgGly is that they > have high levels of HCl, some even on an empty stomach. > > If anybody understands this differently, please chime in. > > Ann > > On Jul 20, 2008, at 2:58 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Dear Ann and Tim, > > > > I agree with much of what you write. And patients who show some of > > the other signs or causes of possible Magnesium deficiency ( high > > stress lifestyle, bone spurs, calcium deposits including > > atherosclerosis, compromised sleep, muscle spasms, and compromised > > liver function) but without a tendency towards constipation I would > > agree that it would be prudent to consider Mg Glycinate or Mg > > Malate. The advantage of Mg Glycinate is, that to the best of my > > knowledge, it is the most highly absorbed form of Mg, Whereas the > > advantage of Mg Malate is that, from what I know anecdotally, > > Malate, provides the additional benefit of symptomatically > > ameliorating fibromyalgia. I also like the idea that it chelates > > aluminum. Thanks for the info! Concerning the question of when > > to take it, a consideration would certainly be the patient's levels > > of HCl. If a patient has adequate HCl, then, again, I would > > encourage taking with meals, to break it down > > and make it bioavailable, and if not, then between meals when food > > in the stomach is not competing with the chelated molecule. > > > > Thank you both again for teaching me and helping me become a more > > educated practitioner! > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> wrote: > > > > A Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> > > Re: Why I like magnesium citrate specifically > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:09 PM > > > > Yehuda, > > Thing is I've heard rather the opposite re MgCit. It is a weak > > chelation compared to MgGly and therefore more susceptible of > > cleaving, releasing free Mg, which, being hydrophilic, attracts > water > > into the L.I. It seems that I have heard that if one were taking > > MgGly to optimize absorption, one would take it away from meals to > > minimize exposure to the hydrochloric acid which would be more > apt to > > cleave the chelation. Therefore taking it with food would more > likely > > RAISE the quantity of free Mg that would wind up in the intestines; > > free Mg is less absorbable but does attract water to " irrigate " the > > stool. If one already gets 2-3 good and comfortable BMs per day, one > > doesn't need the MgCit and, in fact, 'wouldn't be prudent'. But if > > you think most of your patients are full of it, then you better stay > > with the MgCit. > > 8-) > > > > ann > > > > On Jul 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > I appreciate your insight. I am always looking for informative > > > tools to determine cellular levels of minerals, and other > > > nutritional substances with some level of credibility. I believe > > > that our wise Creator is constantly speaking to us and it is > > > incumbant upon us to listen. Of course, there are many different > > > laxatives, each using different mechanism to bring on bowel > > > movements, whether they be minerals or herbs. Da Huang, for > > > example, works directly on the large intestine, increasing > > > contraction and peristalsis, It has no effect on the small > > > intestine, and, therefore, doesn't interfere with nutrient > > > absorption. It also has a hepatoprotective and nephroprotective > > > effect, protecting against both liver and kidney damage. Dang Gui, > > > strongly nourishes the blood and increases circulation by > > > decreasing blood viscosity, thus treating constipation induced by > > > dryness and stagnation. Magnesium citrate, on the other hand, is a > > > saline > > > osmotic, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isa > > > containing about 11% magnesium, which attacts water to the > > > intestines. Though when used specifically as a laxative, it is > > > recommended to be taken on an empty stomach to facilitate bowel > > > movements, I, however, always recommend taking it WITH meals to > > > minimize this effect and maximize absorption. > > > > > > Let me tell you why I am so keen on supplementing with Mag Cit. > > > Our society breeds stress, and stress stimulates the sympathetic > > > nervous system (the " fight or flight " mechanism). When under > > > stresses such as psychological stress or low blood sugar levels > > > (hypoglycemia) our adrenal glands release the class of > > > neurotransmitter hormones called catecholamines. The most abundant > > > catecholamines are epinephrine, noepinephrine, dopamine and > > > tyrosine. These catecholamines wreak havoc including depleting > > > the body of magnesium. But it is also interesting to note that one > > > of the classic manifestations of sympathetic overstimulation is > > > constipation. Like I said, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that > > > for people under stress (do you know anyone not?), it is > imperative > > > that they receive adequate magnesium (we've spoken before about > its > > > amazing benefits), which so easily is depleted, and maintain > > > appropriate elimination. To me, that means > > > formed soft daily bowel movements. And unless it is > > > contraindicated as in with obstruction, by regulating and > > > determining the right dose to maintain such elimination, we > promote > > > greater wellness and balance in the face of stress. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, > > > <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> wrote: > > > > > > <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> > > > RE: Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 PM > > > > > > Y, > > > > > > I understand your thinking, although I wonder if one can really > > > correlate > > > one's level of bowel tolerance to what one needs on a cellular > > > level (i.e. > > > muscles). Meaning, just because someone has a laxative effect does > > > not mean > > > that this is all one needs on a cellular level. Some people have > > > very easy > > > bowel moving tendencies (esp with citrate) yet need a much larger > > > dose to > > > change there tight muscles etc. Therefore I almost always use > > > glycinate. > > > Furthermore, I see no reason to provoke someone's bowels. If > > > someone does > > > have constipation, IME, Citrate usually does nothing to correct > the > > > underlying problem and just acts a laxative. Although I agree this > > > can be > > > useful in some situations. > > > > > > Further comments? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > > frischman > > > Friday, July 18, 2008 5:19 PM > > > > > > Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > > > Mg Glycinate is a really nice form of Magnesium, is inexpensive > > and is > > > highly absorbable, thus requiring a much smaller dose. It's also > > > one of the > > > few forms of Mg. that doesn't have a laxative effect. It's > > > therefore the > > > perfect alternative for the patient who is tends to have loose > > > bowels or is > > > mechanically compromised (eg from surgery, obstruction, or immune > > > dysfunction) . However, What I like about pure Mg Citrate > powder for > > > everyone else, is that its laxative effect I find to be a like a > > > barometer > > > to determine the dose that fits for each patient. I generally > start > > > with > > > 1/3 teaspoon TID, with meals, and go from there. What I am looking > > > for is a > > > daily bowel movement which is soft and formed, but certainly not > > > mushy. > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, <@chineseme d > > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > > > > > <@chineseme d > > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > > > RE: Recommended topicals & ointments > > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > > roups.com> > > > . com > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 AM > > > > > > Yehuda, > > > > > > Why not just use Mg glycinate? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > > frischman > > > Friday, July 18, 2008 1:39 AM > > > > > > Re: Recommended topicals & ointments > > > > > > Dear Dave, > > > > > > Two things: > > > > > > 1. I hate using " one shoe fits all " medicines to treat symptoms, > > > especially > > > topically, but if you can find it, and the patient is showing > signs > > > of cold, > > > or spleen Qi or Yang vacuity, along with the pain a wonderful > > topical > > > medicine is Feng Shi You (BTW, I haven't been able to find it > in LA > > > for > > > about 3 months). > > > > > > 2. That being said, almost without exception, the patients that I > > have > > > treated with pain and muscle spasms have been deficient in > > > Magnesium. I use > > > Now brand Magnesium Citrate in powder form, and prescribe 1/3 > > > teaspoon TID > > > with meals-to start. If this produces loose bowels or diarrrhea, > > > cut back > > > to 1/4 teaspoon BID, and keep adjusting until your patient finds > > > the perfect > > > dose. > > > > > > Good Luck, > > > > > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) > > > <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> wrote: > > > > > > dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) <dmvitello% 40msn.com> > com> > > > Recommended topicals & ointments > > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > > roups.com> > > > . com > > > Thursday, July 17, 2008, 10:28 AM > > > > > > CHA Members, > > > > > > Please recommend any topical products you have found helpful in > > > treating pain and muscle spasm. Unfortunately I don't have time to > > > make it myself anymore, so I'm looking for companies products > > that you > > > have found useful in the clinic. I believe there was a company > > > mentioned that specialized in topical applications but I cannot > find > > > the info. I'm hoping to find a herbal massage oil, ointments and > > > plasters or the like. Thank you for any help you can offer. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Dave v > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Probiotics are definitely not acid loving. Companies like integrative therapeutics have enteric coatings to protect from acid. They even have a little chart on the back of the box that shows how little of standard probiotics survive the stomach into the intestines. FTR, I don't use their products, I mostly use Pharmax b/c they are run by some of the top peer reviewed researchers in the world on that subject. I once did a one on one 2 hour training with their lead technical support PhD to get the downlow on how to use prebiotics and probiotics. They've actually done intestinal biopsies and the like to determine bacterial status during their university research, it's pretty fascinating. As for predicting gastric pH, I absolutely agree that it's tough to predict for many of the reasons listed below, not to mention organisms like H Pylori that destroy the acid producing parietal cells. -Tim Sharpe On Behalf Of A Brameier Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:25 PM Re: magnesium options Yehuda, Still, it seems that it is the HCl that " breaks down " the Mg chelation - but you don't want to cleave the chelation. It is the chelated molecule that is better absorbed (the amino acid acts as a carrier through the intestinal wall -- that's the purpose of taking chelated minerals); when the amino acid is removed the free-floating Mg will then be less absorbable and more hydrophilic and attract water. That's why MgCit is more of a 'stool-softener' - it's a looser chelation, allowing for some absorption, but also some release of the elemental Mg so it can pull water back into the LI. It may make sense, as Tim says, that the food buffers HCl at the beginning of a meal, making it less acidic. This may be difficult to predict with individuals, given the variations in secretion, due to stress and other factors, including the diet itself. His comment that the higher pH is the reason for giving probiotics with food is puzzling. I thought that the meaning of acidophilus is 'acid-loving' -- thus more viable with food for that reason. I will have to check on this further. But I have also heard that the reason that some people may still get a stool-loosening effect with MgGly is that they have high levels of HCl, some even on an empty stomach. If anybody understands this differently, please chime in. Ann On Jul 20, 2008, at 2:58 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Ann and Tim, > > I agree with much of what you write. And patients who show some of > the other signs or causes of possible Magnesium deficiency ( high > stress lifestyle, bone spurs, calcium deposits including > atherosclerosis, compromised sleep, muscle spasms, and compromised > liver function) but without a tendency towards constipation I would > agree that it would be prudent to consider Mg Glycinate or Mg > Malate. The advantage of Mg Glycinate is, that to the best of my > knowledge, it is the most highly absorbed form of Mg, Whereas the > advantage of Mg Malate is that, from what I know anecdotally, > Malate, provides the additional benefit of symptomatically > ameliorating fibromyalgia. I also like the idea that it chelates > aluminum. Thanks for the info! Concerning the question of when > to take it, a consideration would certainly be the patient's levels > of HCl. If a patient has adequate HCl, then, again, I would > encourage taking with meals, to break it down > and make it bioavailable, and if not, then between meals when food > in the stomach is not competing with the chelated molecule. > > Thank you both again for teaching me and helping me become a more > educated practitioner! > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > A Brameier <snakeoil.works > Re: Why I like magnesium citrate specifically > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:09 PM > > Yehuda, > Thing is I've heard rather the opposite re MgCit. It is a weak > chelation compared to MgGly and therefore more susceptible of > cleaving, releasing free Mg, which, being hydrophilic, attracts water > into the L.I. It seems that I have heard that if one were taking > MgGly to optimize absorption, one would take it away from meals to > minimize exposure to the hydrochloric acid which would be more apt to > cleave the chelation. Therefore taking it with food would more likely > RAISE the quantity of free Mg that would wind up in the intestines; > free Mg is less absorbable but does attract water to " irrigate " the > stool. If one already gets 2-3 good and comfortable BMs per day, one > doesn't need the MgCit and, in fact, 'wouldn't be prudent'. But if > you think most of your patients are full of it, then you better stay > with the MgCit. > 8-) > > ann > > On Jul 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Jason, > > > > I appreciate your insight. I am always looking for informative > > tools to determine cellular levels of minerals, and other > > nutritional substances with some level of credibility. I believe > > that our wise Creator is constantly speaking to us and it is > > incumbant upon us to listen. Of course, there are many different > > laxatives, each using different mechanism to bring on bowel > > movements, whether they be minerals or herbs. Da Huang, for > > example, works directly on the large intestine, increasing > > contraction and peristalsis, It has no effect on the small > > intestine, and, therefore, doesn't interfere with nutrient > > absorption. It also has a hepatoprotective and nephroprotective > > effect, protecting against both liver and kidney damage. Dang Gui, > > strongly nourishes the blood and increases circulation by > > decreasing blood viscosity, thus treating constipation induced by > > dryness and stagnation. Magnesium citrate, on the other hand, is a > > saline > > osmotic, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isa > > containing about 11% magnesium, which attacts water to the > > intestines. Though when used specifically as a laxative, it is > > recommended to be taken on an empty stomach to facilitate bowel > > movements, I, however, always recommend taking it WITH meals to > > minimize this effect and maximize absorption. > > > > Let me tell you why I am so keen on supplementing with Mag Cit. > > Our society breeds stress, and stress stimulates the sympathetic > > nervous system (the " fight or flight " mechanism). When under > > stresses such as psychological stress or low blood sugar levels > > (hypoglycemia) our adrenal glands release the class of > > neurotransmitter hormones called catecholamines. The most abundant > > catecholamines are epinephrine, noepinephrine, dopamine and > > tyrosine. These catecholamines wreak havoc including depleting > > the body of magnesium. But it is also interesting to note that one > > of the classic manifestations of sympathetic overstimulation is > > constipation. Like I said, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that > > for people under stress (do you know anyone not?), it is imperative > > that they receive adequate magnesium (we've spoken before about its > > amazing benefits), which so easily is depleted, and maintain > > appropriate elimination. To me, that means > > formed soft daily bowel movements. And unless it is > > contraindicated as in with obstruction, by regulating and > > determining the right dose to maintain such elimination, we promote > > greater wellness and balance in the face of stress. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: > > > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > > RE: Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 PM > > > > Y, > > > > I understand your thinking, although I wonder if one can really > > correlate > > one's level of bowel tolerance to what one needs on a cellular > > level (i.e. > > muscles). Meaning, just because someone has a laxative effect does > > not mean > > that this is all one needs on a cellular level. Some people have > > very easy > > bowel moving tendencies (esp with citrate) yet need a much larger > > dose to > > change there tight muscles etc. Therefore I almost always use > > glycinate. > > Furthermore, I see no reason to provoke someone's bowels. If > > someone does > > have constipation, IME, Citrate usually does nothing to correct the > > underlying problem and just acts a laxative. Although I agree this > > can be > > useful in some situations. > > > > Further comments? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > frischman > > Friday, July 18, 2008 5:19 PM > > > > Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > Mg Glycinate is a really nice form of Magnesium, is inexpensive > and is > > highly absorbable, thus requiring a much smaller dose. It's also > > one of the > > few forms of Mg. that doesn't have a laxative effect. It's > > therefore the > > perfect alternative for the patient who is tends to have loose > > bowels or is > > mechanically compromised (eg from surgery, obstruction, or immune > > dysfunction) . However, What I like about pure Mg Citrate powder for > > everyone else, is that its laxative effect I find to be a like a > > barometer > > to determine the dose that fits for each patient. I generally start > > with > > 1/3 teaspoon TID, with meals, and go from there. What I am looking > > for is a > > daily bowel movement which is soft and formed, but certainly not > > mushy. > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, <@chineseme d > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > > > <@chineseme d > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > > RE: Recommended topicals & ointments > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > roups.com> > > . com > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 AM > > > > Yehuda, > > > > Why not just use Mg glycinate? > > > > -Jason > > > > _____ > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > frischman > > Friday, July 18, 2008 1:39 AM > > > > Re: Recommended topicals & ointments > > > > Dear Dave, > > > > Two things: > > > > 1. I hate using " one shoe fits all " medicines to treat symptoms, > > especially > > topically, but if you can find it, and the patient is showing signs > > of cold, > > or spleen Qi or Yang vacuity, along with the pain a wonderful > topical > > medicine is Feng Shi You (BTW, I haven't been able to find it in LA > > for > > about 3 months). > > > > 2. That being said, almost without exception, the patients that I > have > > treated with pain and muscle spasms have been deficient in > > Magnesium. I use > > Now brand Magnesium Citrate in powder form, and prescribe 1/3 > > teaspoon TID > > with meals-to start. If this produces loose bowels or diarrrhea, > > cut back > > to 1/4 teaspoon BID, and keep adjusting until your patient finds > > the perfect > > dose. > > > > Good Luck, > > > > Yehuda > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) > > <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> wrote: > > > > dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> > > Recommended topicals & ointments > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > roups.com> > > . com > > Thursday, July 17, 2008, 10:28 AM > > > > CHA Members, > > > > Please recommend any topical products you have found helpful in > > treating pain and muscle spasm. Unfortunately I don't have time to > > make it myself anymore, so I'm looking for companies products > that you > > have found useful in the clinic. I believe there was a company > > mentioned that specialized in topical applications but I cannot find > > the info. I'm hoping to find a herbal massage oil, ointments and > > plasters or the like. Thank you for any help you can offer. > > > > Best Wishes, > > Dave v > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Tim & Yehuda, I've consulted with the major rep from Metagenics and their Tech dept. According to them, and to various articles, acidophilus does indeed mean acid-loving, meaning it thrives in an acid environment. I'm not sure what you meant about the stomach being higher pH after eating. More than what? Sure, the food buffers the HCl but the acidity soon increases; I was told at no time after eating is the stomach more alkaline than the small intestines. But flora has come a long way in recent years - at least the understanding and cultivation have. So there are indeed 'standard' strains which are not as viable as others. Strains that survive well to the lower bowel are chosen by the better producers. Now there are strains known to be specific to suppressing certain baddies. And of course, there are the 'sticky strains', which are more colonizing of the intestines, ie. less apt to just pass thru. Metagenics, of course, stands by their brand and guarantees potency at date of expiration. I haven't seen that in another product. They stated that it is now acceptable to take their flora with and away from food. They have a dairy-free option which they suggest may benefit from eating with food as it needs a protein carrier for better utilization. But they denied that the reason for taking it with food had much to do with the acid. Why was it named acidophilus? As for the MAGNESIUM issue, I received a bit of clarification. Disclosure: Metagenics has a Mg Cit and a Mg Gly product. Mg Cit, like Mg Oxide and others, is an inorganic salt. Minerals as inorganic salts may need HCl to 'ionize' them for better absorption, which takes place in the first few inches of the duodenum. Chelated minerals, OTH, are absorbed further along at completely different receptor sites, those for amino acids. So-called 'amino acid chelates' are not necessarily true chelates; they often consist of putting the aa together with the mineral and calling it a chelate, but they have not been chemically combined in any way - they are basically just 'admixes'. This is possible d/t the scant regulation of the industry, so I was told. A true chelation will have the patent number on the bottle. So - there seems ample evidence for more nearly complete absorption of MgGly, as opposed to MgCit. I was also told that there may be a slight advantage to taking Mg Gly away from food, just to protect it from any risk of cleaving the chelation, although the better chelations (ie. the higher patent numbers) will be resistant to that. Of course, because of individual differences in digestive capacity and complication, there may be variations in the above. A person with certain sensitivities, for example, may still have a problem with MgGly causing stool loosening, though this would not be the norm. The main reason for choosing MgCit over MgGly, aside from cost, is to treat sluggish bowel/constipation. But of course that shouldn't be the sole or primary means of correcting that condition, except perhaps in the transient case. My 2 fen, Ann On Jul 20, 2008, at 10:19 PM, Tim Sharpe wrote: > Probiotics are definitely not acid loving. Companies like integrative > therapeutics have enteric coatings to protect from acid. They even > have a > little chart on the back of the box that shows how little of standard > probiotics survive the stomach into the intestines. FTR, I don't > use their > products, I mostly use Pharmax b/c they are run by some of the top > peer > reviewed researchers in the world on that subject. I once did a one > on one > 2 hour training with their lead technical support PhD to get the > downlow on > how to use prebiotics and probiotics. They've actually done intestinal > biopsies and the like to determine bacterial status during their > university > research, it's pretty fascinating. > > As for predicting gastric pH, I absolutely agree that it's tough to > predict > for many of the reasons listed below, not to mention organisms like > H Pylori > that destroy the acid producing parietal cells. > > -Tim Sharpe > > > > On Behalf Of A Brameier > Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:25 PM > > Re: magnesium options > > Yehuda, > Still, it seems that it is the HCl that " breaks down " the Mg > chelation - but you don't want to cleave the chelation. It is the > chelated molecule that is better absorbed (the amino acid acts as a > carrier through the intestinal wall -- that's the purpose of taking > chelated minerals); when the amino acid is removed the free-floating > Mg will then be less absorbable and more hydrophilic and attract > water. That's why MgCit is more of a 'stool-softener' - it's a looser > chelation, allowing for some absorption, but also some release of the > elemental Mg so it can pull water back into the LI. > > It may make sense, as Tim says, that the food buffers HCl at the > beginning of a meal, making it less acidic. This may be difficult to > predict with individuals, given the variations in secretion, due to > stress and other factors, including the diet itself. His comment that > the higher pH is the reason for giving probiotics with food is > puzzling. I thought that the meaning of acidophilus is 'acid-loving' > -- thus more viable with food for that reason. I will have to check > on this further. But I have also heard that the reason that some > people may still get a stool-loosening effect with MgGly is that they > have high levels of HCl, some even on an empty stomach. > > If anybody understands this differently, please chime in. > > Ann > > On Jul 20, 2008, at 2:58 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Dear Ann and Tim, > > > > I agree with much of what you write. And patients who show some of > > the other signs or causes of possible Magnesium deficiency ( high > > stress lifestyle, bone spurs, calcium deposits including > > atherosclerosis, compromised sleep, muscle spasms, and compromised > > liver function) but without a tendency towards constipation I would > > agree that it would be prudent to consider Mg Glycinate or Mg > > Malate. The advantage of Mg Glycinate is, that to the best of my > > knowledge, it is the most highly absorbed form of Mg, Whereas the > > advantage of Mg Malate is that, from what I know anecdotally, > > Malate, provides the additional benefit of symptomatically > > ameliorating fibromyalgia. I also like the idea that it chelates > > aluminum. Thanks for the info! Concerning the question of when > > to take it, a consideration would certainly be the patient's levels > > of HCl. If a patient has adequate HCl, then, again, I would > > encourage taking with meals, to break it down > > and make it bioavailable, and if not, then between meals when food > > in the stomach is not competing with the chelated molecule. > > > > Thank you both again for teaching me and helping me become a more > > educated practitioner! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, A Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > > > A Brameier <snakeoil.works > > Re: Why I like magnesium citrate specifically > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 8:09 PM > > > > Yehuda, > > Thing is I've heard rather the opposite re MgCit. It is a weak > > chelation compared to MgGly and therefore more susceptible of > > cleaving, releasing free Mg, which, being hydrophilic, attracts > water > > into the L.I. It seems that I have heard that if one were taking > > MgGly to optimize absorption, one would take it away from meals to > > minimize exposure to the hydrochloric acid which would be more > apt to > > cleave the chelation. Therefore taking it with food would more > likely > > RAISE the quantity of free Mg that would wind up in the intestines; > > free Mg is less absorbable but does attract water to " irrigate " the > > stool. If one already gets 2-3 good and comfortable BMs per day, one > > doesn't need the MgCit and, in fact, 'wouldn't be prudent'. But if > > you think most of your patients are full of it, then you better stay > > with the MgCit. > > 8-) > > > > ann > > > > On Jul 18, 2008, at 10:39 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > I appreciate your insight. I am always looking for informative > > > tools to determine cellular levels of minerals, and other > > > nutritional substances with some level of credibility. I believe > > > that our wise Creator is constantly speaking to us and it is > > > incumbant upon us to listen. Of course, there are many different > > > laxatives, each using different mechanism to bring on bowel > > > movements, whether they be minerals or herbs. Da Huang, for > > > example, works directly on the large intestine, increasing > > > contraction and peristalsis, It has no effect on the small > > > intestine, and, therefore, doesn't interfere with nutrient > > > absorption. It also has a hepatoprotective and nephroprotective > > > effect, protecting against both liver and kidney damage. Dang Gui, > > > strongly nourishes the blood and increases circulation by > > > decreasing blood viscosity, thus treating constipation induced by > > > dryness and stagnation. Magnesium citrate, on the other hand, is a > > > saline > > > osmotic, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isa > > > containing about 11% magnesium, which attacts water to the > > > intestines. Though when used specifically as a laxative, it is > > > recommended to be taken on an empty stomach to facilitate bowel > > > movements, I, however, always recommend taking it WITH meals to > > > minimize this effect and maximize absorption. > > > > > > Let me tell you why I am so keen on supplementing with Mag Cit. > > > Our society breeds stress, and stress stimulates the sympathetic > > > nervous system (the " fight or flight " mechanism). When under > > > stresses such as psychological stress or low blood sugar levels > > > (hypoglycemia) our adrenal glands release the class of > > > neurotransmitter hormones called catecholamines. The most abundant > > > catecholamines are epinephrine, noepinephrine, dopamine and > > > tyrosine. These catecholamines wreak havoc including depleting > > > the body of magnesium. But it is also interesting to note that one > > > of the classic manifestations of sympathetic overstimulation is > > > constipation. Like I said, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that > > > for people under stress (do you know anyone not?), it is > imperative > > > that they receive adequate magnesium (we've spoken before about > its > > > amazing benefits), which so easily is depleted, and maintain > > > appropriate elimination. To me, that means > > > formed soft daily bowel movements. And unless it is > > > contraindicated as in with obstruction, by regulating and > > > determining the right dose to maintain such elimination, we > promote > > > greater wellness and balance in the face of stress. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, > > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: > > > > > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > > > RE: Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 PM > > > > > > Y, > > > > > > I understand your thinking, although I wonder if one can really > > > correlate > > > one's level of bowel tolerance to what one needs on a cellular > > > level (i.e. > > > muscles). Meaning, just because someone has a laxative effect does > > > not mean > > > that this is all one needs on a cellular level. Some people have > > > very easy > > > bowel moving tendencies (esp with citrate) yet need a much larger > > > dose to > > > change there tight muscles etc. Therefore I almost always use > > > glycinate. > > > Furthermore, I see no reason to provoke someone's bowels. If > > > someone does > > > have constipation, IME, Citrate usually does nothing to correct > the > > > underlying problem and just acts a laxative. Although I agree this > > > can be > > > useful in some situations. > > > > > > Further comments? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > > frischman > > > Friday, July 18, 2008 5:19 PM > > > > > > Mg Glycinate vs Citrate > > > > > > Mg Glycinate is a really nice form of Magnesium, is inexpensive > > and is > > > highly absorbable, thus requiring a much smaller dose. It's also > > > one of the > > > few forms of Mg. that doesn't have a laxative effect. It's > > > therefore the > > > perfect alternative for the patient who is tends to have loose > > > bowels or is > > > mechanically compromised (eg from surgery, obstruction, or immune > > > dysfunction) . However, What I like about pure Mg Citrate > powder for > > > everyone else, is that its laxative effect I find to be a like a > > > barometer > > > to determine the dose that fits for each patient. I generally > start > > > with > > > 1/3 teaspoon TID, with meals, and go from there. What I am looking > > > for is a > > > daily bowel movement which is soft and formed, but certainly not > > > mushy. > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/18/08, <@chineseme d > > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > > > > > <@chineseme d > > > <% 40chinesemedicin edoc.com> icinedoc.com> > > > RE: Recommended topicals & ointments > > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > > roups.com> > > > . com > > > Friday, July 18, 2008, 5:52 AM > > > > > > Yehuda, > > > > > > Why not just use Mg glycinate? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > [chineseherb academy] On Behalf Of yehuda > > > frischman > > > Friday, July 18, 2008 1:39 AM > > > > > > Re: Recommended topicals & ointments > > > > > > Dear Dave, > > > > > > Two things: > > > > > > 1. I hate using " one shoe fits all " medicines to treat symptoms, > > > especially > > > topically, but if you can find it, and the patient is showing > signs > > > of cold, > > > or spleen Qi or Yang vacuity, along with the pain a wonderful > > topical > > > medicine is Feng Shi You (BTW, I haven't been able to find it > in LA > > > for > > > about 3 months). > > > > > > 2. That being said, almost without exception, the patients that I > > have > > > treated with pain and muscle spasms have been deficient in > > > Magnesium. I use > > > Now brand Magnesium Citrate in powder form, and prescribe 1/3 > > > teaspoon TID > > > with meals-to start. If this produces loose bowels or diarrrhea, > > > cut back > > > to 1/4 teaspoon BID, and keep adjusting until your patient finds > > > the perfect > > > dose. > > > > > > Good Luck, > > > > > > Yehuda > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) > > > <dmvitello% 40msn.com> com> wrote: > > > > > > dmvitello01 <dmvitello (AT) msn (DOT) <dmvitello% 40msn.com> > com> > > > Recommended topicals & ointments > > > @ <chineseherb academy%40g > > > roups.com> > > > . com > > > Thursday, July 17, 2008, 10:28 AM > > > > > > CHA Members, > > > > > > Please recommend any topical products you have found helpful in > > > treating pain and muscle spasm. Unfortunately I don't have time to > > > make it myself anymore, so I'm looking for companies products > > that you > > > have found useful in the clinic. I believe there was a company > > > mentioned that specialized in topical applications but I cannot > find > > > the info. I'm hoping to find a herbal massage oil, ointments and > > > plasters or the like. Thank you for any help you can offer. > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Dave v > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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