herbs that help the kidneys stop leaching calcium

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

Does anyone know of Chinese herbal diuretics - or other herbs - that

would help the kidneys specifically spare calcium or keep calcium in

the body.

 

I am looking for herb(s), diuretic or otherwise, that help the kidneys

correctly manage calcium. HCTZ has been prescribed for this person

because the part of her kidneys that manage calcium are not working

correctly and therefore she is leaching calcium in the urine. I think

the normal rate is about 260 and hers is 345. The ramifications are

development of kidney stones but more importantly this condition is a

precursor to developing osteoporosis. The person already has some

bone loss ... not a lot but some detected at age 51.

 

Her MD said that she could try something else for a month and retest

since she just does not want to take diuretics. I guess that diuretics

are the class of drug that regulate the kidneys (in W medicine). For

example, HCTZ is a " calcium sparing " diuretic. There are other

diuretics that are " potassium sparing " . So they help excrete

everything else except potassium.

 

The person just does not want to take HCTZ - it would be for life and

can have some side effects.

 

This is generally a hereditary condition esp w/ regard to the

development of kidney stones. That part of the kidney just stops

working correctly.

 

Thank you.

Martha Lucas

Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

Practitioner of Oriental Medicine

303-947-6224

Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Martha, I assume since you're presenting a Western condition with a Western

endpoint that you've considered the standard Western treatment methods to

encourage calcium uptake, e.g. Vitamins K1, K2, C, and D, as well as

Magnesium, Boron, Molybdenum, Manganese, and even Strontium. Many in the

Western side would also consider Bio-Identical HRT.

 

I don't know the material medica well enough to directly answer your

question. From a TCM standpoint I would do what you have most likely

already done - treat what I see. It doesn't sound like this is immediately

life threatening, or even quality of life affecting. The western treatment

sounds more likely to negatively impact her in the short term. If she truly

doesn't want to do (western) diuretics then I suggest trusting your TCM

diagnostic prowess, suggest to her that results might be slower, and get to

it. I'm sure several here would be happy to offer up their own experiences

if you provide a typical list of symptoms, and your TCM pattern

differentiation.

 

PS - Osteo-mins AM by Progressive Labs is an interesting product for her.

It wouldn't fit the entire bill from a Wx side, but it is calcium free, and

contains lots of minerals for calcium regulation. Notably missing are K1,

K2, magnesium, and lots of Vitamin D. Those are in the product

Osteomins-PM, which would be inappropriate b/c it is Calcium based.

 

- Osteo-mins AM 2 capsules:

Zinc (as zinc citrate) 20 mg

Selenium (as selenomethionine) 50 mcg

Copper (as copper gluconate) 1 mg

Manganese (as manganese citrate) 5 mg

Molybdenum (as molybdenum amino acid chelate)-50 mcg

Boron (as boron aspartate) 3 mg

Silicon (as silicon amino acid chelate) 10 mg

Strontium (as strontium citrate) 500 mg

*for efficacy , always speparate strontium from calcium intake

 

- The addition of Vitamin D Supreme from Designs for Health might also be

beneficial:

 

Vit D Supreme 1 capsule:

Vitamin D3 (as Cholecalciferol) 5000 IU

Vitamin K 550 mcg

(as Vitamin K1 500 mcg; Vitamin K2 50 mcg)

 

I have precious little to go on, so take these as tidbits of knowledge

rather than a specific recommendation.

 

- Tim Sharpe

 

 

Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

Saturday, October 11, 2008 8:56 AM

herbs that help the kidneys stop leaching calcium

 

Does anyone know of Chinese herbal diuretics - or other herbs - that

would help the kidneys specifically spare calcium or keep calcium in

the body... snip...

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the suggestions Tim.

 

I realize that my message was fraught w/ western med " stuff " . One

reason I talked about the w med dx is because I am curious myself

about how individual herbs may impact a particular function of one of

the organs. In other words, instead of " tonifying the kidneys " , how

about helping the part of them that spares calcium? Just like many

herbs contain amino acids or vitamins, I wondered if some impact very

specific organ function.

 

We're going to handle this herbally for the most part so it will be

interesting to see how it all turns out upon retesting.

 

Martha

 

On Oct 12, 2008, at 2:25 PM, Tim Sharpe wrote:

 

> Martha, I assume since you're presenting a Western condition with a

> Western

> endpoint that you've considered the standard Western treatment

> methods to

> encourage calcium uptake, e.g. Vitamins K1, K2, C, and D, as well as

> Magnesium, Boron, Molybdenum, Manganese, and even Strontium. Many in

> the

> Western side would also consider Bio-Identical HRT.

>

> I don't know the material medica well enough to directly answer your

> question. From a TCM standpoint I would do what you have most likely

> already done - treat what I see. It doesn't sound like this is

> immediately

> life threatening, or even quality of life affecting. The western

> treatment

> sounds more likely to negatively impact her in the short term. If

> she truly

> doesn't want to do (western) diuretics then I suggest trusting your

> TCM

> diagnostic prowess, suggest to her that results might be slower, and

> get to

> it. I'm sure several here would be happy to offer up their own

> experiences

> if you provide a typical list of symptoms, and your TCM pattern

> differentiation.

>

> PS - Osteo-mins AM by Progressive Labs is an interesting product for

> her.

> It wouldn't fit the entire bill from a Wx side, but it is calcium

> free, and

> contains lots of minerals for calcium regulation. Notably missing

> are K1,

> K2, magnesium, and lots of Vitamin D. Those are in the product

> Osteomins-PM, which would be inappropriate b/c it is Calcium based.

>

> - Osteo-mins AM 2 capsules:

> Zinc (as zinc citrate) 20 mg

> Selenium (as selenomethionine) 50 mcg

> Copper (as copper gluconate) 1 mg

> Manganese (as manganese citrate) 5 mg

> Molybdenum (as molybdenum amino acid chelate)-50 mcg

> Boron (as boron aspartate) 3 mg

> Silicon (as silicon amino acid chelate) 10 mg

> Strontium (as strontium citrate) 500 mg

> *for efficacy , always speparate strontium from calcium intake

>

> - The addition of Vitamin D Supreme from Designs for Health might

> also be

> beneficial:

>

> Vit D Supreme 1 capsule:

> Vitamin D3 (as Cholecalciferol) 5000 IU

> Vitamin K 550 mcg

> (as Vitamin K1 500 mcg; Vitamin K2 50 mcg)

>

> I have precious little to go on, so take these as tidbits of knowledge

> rather than a specific recommendation.

>

> - Tim Sharpe

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here is the appropriate message:

 

Martha, Tim,

I had a similar patient who had one visit recently who had a

structural problem with her kidney that has led to repeated kidney and/

or bladder infections. She has not been able to return for another

visit because of another kidney infection that has prevented her return.

In both cases, I don't think the answer is a mechanical approach to

the leaching or calcium or repairing structural damage. I think it is

reframing the case in Chinese medical terms, and seeing if it is

possible for Chinese medicine to be helpful. It may not in certain

cases, and then looking at the case in terms of Tim's suggestions may

be useful . However, I think finding herbs that specifically stop the

leaching of calcium is not really a possibility in Chinese medical

terms. I may be wrong, but that is what my understanding and

experience tells me.

On Oct 12, 2008, at 5:56 PM, Tim Sharpe wrote:

 

> Z'ev, you're probably aware, but your message was blank.

>

> -Tim Sharpe

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of Z'ev

> Rosenberg

> Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:50 PM

>

> Re: herbs that help the kidneys stop leaching calcium

>

>

> On Oct 12, 2008, at 5:13 PM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. wrote:

>

>> Thank you for the suggestions Tim.

>>

>> I realize that my message was fraught w/ western med " stuff " . One

>> reason I talked about the w med dx is because I am curious myself

>> about how individual herbs may impact a particular function of one of

>> the organs. In other words, instead of " tonifying the kidneys " , how

>> about helping the part of them that spares calcium? Just like many

>> herbs contain amino acids or vitamins, I wondered if some impact very

>> specific organ function.

>> SNIP...

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

[Guest guest]

If your main concern is that she will develop osteoporosis, there are

plenty of Tonify Kidney herbs that can help. Of course, they should

match up with her differential diagnosis.

 

Here is some research on Yin Yang Huo:

 

Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2005 Sep;2(3):353-61. Epub 2005

Jul 26.

 

The osteoprotective effect of Herba epimedii (HEP) extract in vivo and

in vitro.

 

Xie F, Wu CF, Lai WP, Yang XJ, Cheung PY, Yao XS, Leung PC, Wong MS.

 

Department of Pharmacology, Shenyang Pharmaceutical University

Shenyang 110016,

China.

 

Herba epimedii (HEP) is one of the most frequently used herbs

prescribed for

treatment of osteoporosis in China. In the present study, the in vivo

effects of

HEP extract on bone metabolism were evaluated using 4-month-old

ovariectomized

(OVX) or sham-operated (Sham) female Sprague-Dawley rats orally

administered with

HEP extract (110 mg kgd), 17ss-estrogen (2 mg kgd) or its vehicle for

3 months.

HEP extract significantly decreased urinary calcium excretion,

suppressed serum

alkaline phosphatase (ALP) activity and urinary deoxypyridinoline

levels in OVX

rats (P < 0.05 versus vehicle-treated OVX rats). Histomorphometric

analysis

indicated that HEP extract could prevent OVX-induced bone loss by

increasing

tibial trabecular bone area and decreasing trabecular separation in

OVX rats (P <

0.05 versus vehicle-treated OVX group). The in vitro effects of HEP

extract were

also studied using rat osteoblast-like UMR 106 cells. HEP extract

significantly

stimulated cell proliferation in a dose-dependent manner (P < 0.01 versus

vehicle-treated) and increased ALP activity at 200 microgml (P < 0.01

versus

vehicle-treated) in UMR 106 cells. It modulated osteoclastogenesis by

increasing

osteoprotegrin (OPG) mRNA and decreasing receptor activator of

NF-kappaB ligand

(RANKL) mRNA expression, resulting in a dose-dependent increase in

OPG/RANKL mRNA

ratio (P < 0.01 versus vehicle-treated). Taken together, HEP treatment can

effectively suppress the OVX-induced increase in bone turnover

possibly by both

an increase in osteoblastic activities and a decrease in

osteoclastogenesis. The

present study provides the evidence that HEP can be considered as a

complementary

and alternative medicine for treatment of post-menopausal osteoporosis.

 

 

, " Martha Lucas, Ph.D.,

L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> Does anyone know of Chinese herbal diuretics - or other herbs - that

> would help the kidneys specifically spare calcium or keep calcium in

> the body.

>

> I am looking for herb(s), diuretic or otherwise, that help the kidneys

> correctly manage calcium. HCTZ has been prescribed for this person

> because the part of her kidneys that manage calcium are not working

> correctly and therefore she is leaching calcium in the urine. I think

> the normal rate is about 260 and hers is 345. The ramifications are

> development of kidney stones but more importantly this condition is a

> precursor to developing osteoporosis. The person already has some

> bone loss ... not a lot but some detected at age 51.

>

> Her MD said that she could try something else for a month and retest

> since she just does not want to take diuretics. I guess that diuretics

> are the class of drug that regulate the kidneys (in W medicine). For

> example, HCTZ is a " calcium sparing " diuretic. There are other

> diuretics that are " potassium sparing " . So they help excrete

> everything else except potassium.

>

> The person just does not want to take HCTZ - it would be for life and

> can have some side effects.

>

> This is generally a hereditary condition esp w/ regard to the

> development of kidney stones. That part of the kidney just stops

> working correctly.

>

> Thank you.

> Martha Lucas

> Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

> Practitioner of Oriental Medicine

> 303-947-6224

> Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen.

>

>