Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Hi Everyone, I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding? Martha Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine 303-947-6224 Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Try Yunnan Baiyao --- On Sun, 10/19/08, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. <drmlucas wrote: Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. <drmlucas herbs to stop bleeding Sunday, October 19, 2008, 7:23 PM Hi Everyone, I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding? Martha Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine 303-947-6224 Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Martha, The first thing you need to do is describe the bleeding. Is it pale and watery, does she have a pale tongue and/or soggy pulse? Is it thick, clotted, bright red, purple? Does it stop and start as in beng lou/flooding and leaking? How many days of bleeding? Also needed: age of patient, size of fibroids, medications. There are many effective prescriptions, but the root cause of bleeding must be addressed according to pattern. This may include blood stasis, in which case use a formula such as shao fu zhu yu tang, spleen yang vacuity cold, use a formula such as huang tu tang, spleen qi vacuity fall, bu zhong yi qi tang with blood stanching medicinals, liver qi depressive blood heat, or several other patterns. If there is a chong/ren disharmony, formulas such as gu chong tang or jiao ai tang should be considered. By the way, I don't agree with the indiscriminate use of yunnan baiyao for any kind of bleeding. The true ingredients are not known, so it is hard to prescribe according to pattern. It is best reserved for traumatic injury at best, not for internal conditions such as this. One can use moxa ash in hot water in a pinch if one is not sure what to do. On Oct 19, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but > first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular > success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding? > > Martha > Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. > Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine > 303-947-6224 > Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Thanks Zev. Honestly it's a combination of various types of bleeding and cycles of it and is naturally confounded by blood deficiency at this point. I don't have the exact size of the fibroids (yet) since she is so disparaging of modern medicine. It's like pulling teeth w/ her to even talk about any testing, etc. But thanks for the suggestions. It's going to take a combination of treatments which will start today. Martha On Oct 19, 2008, at 10:21 PM, wrote: > Martha, > The first thing you need to do is describe the bleeding. Is it > pale and watery, does she have a pale tongue and/or soggy pulse? Is > it thick, clotted, bright red, purple? Does it stop and start as in > beng lou/flooding and leaking? How many days of bleeding? > Also needed: age of patient, size of fibroids, medications. > > There are many effective prescriptions, but the root cause of > bleeding must be addressed according to pattern. This may include > blood stasis, in which case use a formula such as shao fu zhu yu tang, > spleen yang vacuity cold, use a formula such as huang tu tang, spleen > qi vacuity fall, bu zhong yi qi tang with blood stanching medicinals, > liver qi depressive blood heat, or several other patterns. If there > is a chong/ren disharmony, formulas such as gu chong tang or jiao ai > tang should be considered. > > By the way, I don't agree with the indiscriminate use of yunnan > baiyao for any kind of bleeding. The true ingredients are not known, > so it is hard to prescribe according to pattern. It is best reserved > for traumatic injury at best, not for internal conditions such as > this. One can use moxa ash in hot water in a pinch if one is not sure > what to do. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Martha, I agree with all that Z'ev said. I have had very good experience stopping bleeding with cases of uterine fibroids but it is essential to do a proper diagnosis and write the prescription accordingly. If you do this you should have little trouble stopping the bleeding. That being said I would like to suggest a lesser known herb, ba yue zha, as one you may want to consider as an addition to formulas for fibroids. I have regularly used this herb and found it to be very beneficial, when the pattern fits, which is often does. Thomas Beijing, China Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide www.sourcepointherbs.org Sorry this site is in desperate need of remodeling, but I can not view it from here, so I have not been able to up-date it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Although I often use ba yue zha, I have never thought of it specific for fibroids. There seems to be so many better choices. Could you explain where this information comes from and what herbs is it usually combined with to accomplish this goal? -Jason Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:24 AM Re: herbs to stop bleeding Martha, I agree with all that Z'ev said. I have had very good experience stopping bleeding with cases of uterine fibroids but it is essential to do a proper diagnosis and write the prescription accordingly. If you do this you should have little trouble stopping the bleeding. That being said I would like to suggest a lesser known herb, ba yue zha, as one you may want to consider as an addition to formulas for fibroids. I have regularly used this herb and found it to be very beneficial, when the pattern fits, which is often does. Thomas Beijing, China Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide www.sourcepointherbs.org Sorry this site is in desperate need of remodeling, but I can not view it from here, so I have not been able to up-date it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Dear Martha, You will find in both Bob Flaws' Compendium of Chinese Medical Menstrual Disease and Maciocia's Obstetrics & Gynecology in fairly good chapters about relative root/branch treatments for treating beng luo which seems like the disease for fibroids you are describing. When bleeding is severe enough to compromise health (lower HCT/HGB) a stop bleeding protocol becomes the primary focus of your treatment and the root pattern becomes secondary. Further, Maciocia also describes protocols for relative excess/deficiency treatments based on the pattern and the chronicity of the disease. I read your request as a query for what people have found to be clinically effective, as I know your skills as a practitioner and know you would be doing all the diagnostics required. I have not found san qi to be clinically effective for uterine bleeding. I believe that it's use would be much more effective when used as a topical for external trauma. In terms of stop bleeding medicinals that I have found useful: Neutral temp: xian he cao (charred) Used to cool blood: ce bai ye (charred) Used to warm womb: ai ye (charred or not charred - both forms effective) Used to ascend: jing jie (charred) - useful in deficiency Used where there is deficiency & blood stasis: melt pu huang in e jiao (makes a big mess), add to formula Charring itself does not have to be to the point of black, herbs are heated in a dry wok until they start to smoke. But they don't make for a pleasant kitchen or a great tasting decoction either. However, with fibroids, if there is a definable mass, there is blood stasis, and bleeding may not stop until blood stasis is addressed. So even with deficiency, stasis has b=to be resolved. Good luck. Valerie Hobbs , " Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. " <drmlucas wrote: > > Thanks Zev. Honestly it's a combination of various types of bleeding > and cycles of it and is naturally confounded by blood deficiency at > this point. I don't have the exact size of the fibroids (yet) since > she is so disparaging of modern medicine. It's like pulling teeth w/ > her to even talk about any testing, etc. > But thanks for the suggestions. It's going to take a combination of > treatments which will start today. > > Martha > > On Oct 19, 2008, at 10:21 PM, wrote: > > > Martha, > > The first thing you need to do is describe the bleeding. Is it > > pale and watery, does she have a pale tongue and/or soggy pulse? Is > > it thick, clotted, bright red, purple? Does it stop and start as in > > beng lou/flooding and leaking? How many days of bleeding? > > Also needed: age of patient, size of fibroids, medications. > > > > There are many effective prescriptions, but the root cause of > > bleeding must be addressed according to pattern. This may include > > blood stasis, in which case use a formula such as shao fu zhu yu tang, > > spleen yang vacuity cold, use a formula such as huang tu tang, spleen > > qi vacuity fall, bu zhong yi qi tang with blood stanching medicinals, > > liver qi depressive blood heat, or several other patterns. If there > > is a chong/ren disharmony, formulas such as gu chong tang or jiao ai > > tang should be considered. > > > > By the way, I don't agree with the indiscriminate use of yunnan > > baiyao for any kind of bleeding. The true ingredients are not known, > > so it is hard to prescribe according to pattern. It is best reserved > > for traumatic injury at best, not for internal conditions such as > > this. One can use moxa ash in hot water in a pinch if one is not sure > > what to do. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 I had a patient with Uterine Bleeding - I simply needled Fu Ke on her left hand, Live 2,3 and Xia San Huang on the Right leg and it stopped bleeding. To stop uterine bleeding, you can use Traumatology Rx's: *Yang Jia Chang Shang San* (Yang Family Spear Injury Powder) Ru Xiang, Mo Yao, Zhu Sha, Ma Deng Cao, Bai Ji, Tao Ren, Chi Shao 30 g She Xiang 1.5 g Er Cha 60 g Xue Jie 24g Gan Cao 15 Grind all ingredients into a powder, take 1.5 g of powder each dose with wine. May also be used externally. Disperses swelling, stops pain, stops bleeding, itching and expels toxins. Can be used for knife wounds. *Qi Li San* (7 Taels Powder) Xue Jie 30 g She Xiang, Bing Pian 0.4 g Ru Xiang, Mo Yao, Hong Hua, 4.5 g Zhu Sha 3.6 g Er Cha 7.2 g Powder all ingredients, and use 0.25 – 1.25 g each dose internally with wine. Can also be applied externally. Removes blood stasis, stops pain and bleeding. I strongly recommend you use some guiding herbs for the uterine region or lower abdomen: For internal bleeding, add *Ou Jie (*Nelumbo nucifera)*, * *Di Yu* (Radix Sanguisorbae Officinalis), *Da Ji (Herba seu Radix Cirsii Japonici) * and *Xiao Ji (Herba Cephalanoploris).* Wish you luck with your patient. Bes regards, On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. < drmlucas wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but > first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular > success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding? > > Martha > Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. > Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine > 303-947-6224 > Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Where is Xia San Huang? On Oct 21, 2008, at 6:28 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > I had a patient with Uterine Bleeding - I simply needled Fu Ke on > her left > hand, Live 2,3 and Xia San Huang on the Right leg and it stopped > bleeding. > > To stop uterine bleeding, you can use Traumatology Rx's: > > > *Yang Jia Chang Shang San* (Yang Family Spear Injury Powder) > > > > Ru Xiang, Mo Yao, Zhu Sha, Ma Deng Cao, Bai Ji, Tao Ren, > > Chi Shao 30 g > > She Xiang 1.5 g > > Er Cha 60 g > > Xue Jie 24g > > Gan Cao 15 > > > > Grind all ingredients into a powder, take 1.5 g of powder each dose > with > wine. May also be used externally. Disperses swelling, stops pain, > stops > bleeding, itching and expels toxins. Can be used for knife wounds. > > > > *Qi Li San* (7 Taels Powder) > > > > Xue Jie 30 g > > She Xiang, Bing Pian 0.4 g > > Ru Xiang, Mo Yao, Hong Hua, 4.5 g > > Zhu Sha 3.6 g > > Er Cha 7.2 g > > > > Powder all ingredients, and use 0.25 – 1.25 g each dose internally > with > wine. Can also be applied externally. Removes blood stasis, stops > pain and > bleeding. > > I strongly recommend you use some guiding herbs for the uterine > region or > lower abdomen: > > For internal bleeding, add *Ou Jie (*Nelumbo nucifera)*, * *Di Yu* > (Radix > Sanguisorbae Officinalis), *Da Ji (Herba seu Radix Cirsii Japonici) * > and *Xiao > Ji (Herba Cephalanoploris).* > > Wish you luck with your patient. > > Bes regards, > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. < > drmlucas wrote: > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but >> first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular >> success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding? >> >> Martha >> Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. >> Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine >> 303-947-6224 >> Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Xia San Huang is the Lower 3 emperors, a group of three of Tung's points: *Shen Guan/Kidney Gate aka Tian Huang Fu/ Heavenly Emperor Appendage* Location: This point is found 1.5 cun distal to Sp 9, on the spleen channel. *Di Huang/ Earth Emperor* Location: This point is 7 cun above the tip of the medial malleolus, on the Sp channel. *Ren Huang/ Human Emperor* Location: This point is located at Sp 6. On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:40 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.workswrote: > Where is Xia San Huang? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 ah thanks, I find this now on page 95 of the Tong book, where it refers to the " Lower 3 Emperors " . However, small point: it says that term includes Tian Huang (Sp 9), not Tian Huang Fu (1.5 cun below it), along with Di Huang (Sp 7) and Ren Huang (Sp 6) and he suggests that " in this case, one would normally expect the names Di Huang or Earth Emperor and Ren Huang, Human Emperor, to be reversed in order " . OTOH, on page 96 we find the " Two Emperors " , said to include Shen Guan & Ren Huang. You may perhaps have some personal transmission regarding this; thanks for your input... and anything else you'd care to add. Ann On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Xia San Huang is the Lower 3 emperors, a group of three of Tung's > points: > > *Shen Guan/Kidney Gate aka Tian Huang Fu/ Heavenly Emperor Appendage* > > Location: This point is found 1.5 cun distal to Sp 9, on the spleen > channel. > > *Di Huang/ Earth Emperor* > > Location: This point is 7 cun above the tip of the medial malleolus, > on the > Sp channel. > > *Ren Huang/ Human Emperor* > > Location: This point is located at Sp 6. > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:40 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.works > >wrote: > > > Where is Xia San Huang? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Ann, Very good! Of course, you can vary the upper point depending on signs and symptoms. Any more secrets, and I'll have to kill ya! Yes, Master Tung (Dong, not Tong) used the more colloquial Tian, Di, Ren, instead of the more scholarly Tian, Ren, Di. The channel is what counts. Best regards, On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:03 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.workswrote: > ah thanks, > I find this now on page 95 of the Tong book, where it refers to the > " Lower 3 Emperors " . However, small point: it says that term includes > Tian Huang (Sp 9), not Tian Huang Fu (1.5 cun below it), along with Di > Huang (Sp 7) and Ren Huang (Sp 6) and he suggests that " in this case, > one would normally expect the names Di Huang or Earth Emperor and Ren > Huang, Human Emperor, to be reversed in order " . > > OTOH, on page 96 we find the " Two Emperors " , said to include Shen Guan > & Ren Huang. > > You may perhaps have some personal transmission regarding this; thanks > for your input... and anything else you'd care to add. > > Ann > > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > > > Xia San Huang is the Lower 3 emperors, a group of three of Tung's > > points: > > > > *Shen Guan/Kidney Gate aka Tian Huang Fu/ Heavenly Emperor Appendage* > > > > Location: This point is found 1.5 cun distal to Sp 9, on the spleen > > channel. > > > > *Di Huang/ Earth Emperor* > > > > Location: This point is 7 cun above the tip of the medial malleolus, > > on the > > Sp channel. > > > > *Ren Huang/ Human Emperor* > > > > Location: This point is located at Sp 6. > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:40 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.works > > >wrote: > > > > > Where is Xia San Huang? > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi, Blue Poppy's publication of Master Tong's Acupuncture has that spelling throughout -- Tong Jing-Chang. Are we talking about the same chap? I assume we are. This is, of course, Miriam Lee's translation; i believe it's out of print. ann On Oct 22, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Ann, > > Very good! Of course, you can vary the upper point depending on > signs and > symptoms. Any more secrets, and I'll have to kill ya! > > Yes, Master Tung (Dong, not Tong) used the more colloquial Tian, Di, > Ren, > instead of the more scholarly Tian, Ren, Di. > > The channel is what counts. > > Best regards, > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:03 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.works > >wrote: > > > ah thanks, > > I find this now on page 95 of the Tong book, where it refers to the > > " Lower 3 Emperors " . However, small point: it says that term includes > > Tian Huang (Sp 9), not Tian Huang Fu (1.5 cun below it), along > with Di > > Huang (Sp 7) and Ren Huang (Sp 6) and he suggests that " in this > case, > > one would normally expect the names Di Huang or Earth Emperor and > Ren > > Huang, Human Emperor, to be reversed in order " . > > > > OTOH, on page 96 we find the " Two Emperors " , said to include Shen > Guan > > & Ren Huang. > > > > You may perhaps have some personal transmission regarding this; > thanks > > for your input... and anything else you'd care to add. > > > > Ann > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 2:54 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > > > > > Xia San Huang is the Lower 3 emperors, a group of three of Tung's > > > points: > > > > > > *Shen Guan/Kidney Gate aka Tian Huang Fu/ Heavenly Emperor > Appendage* > > > > > > Location: This point is found 1.5 cun distal to Sp 9, on the > spleen > > > channel. > > > > > > *Di Huang/ Earth Emperor* > > > > > > Location: This point is 7 cun above the tip of the medial > malleolus, > > > on the > > > Sp channel. > > > > > > *Ren Huang/ Human Emperor* > > > > > > Location: This point is located at Sp 6. > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 5:40 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.works > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Where is Xia San Huang? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Hi Ann! Unfortunately, Blue Poppy got it wrong. His name romanized in Wades Giles is T'ung Ching-chang (we usually drop the apostrophe), whereas in standard Pin Yin it is Dong Jing-chang. Both are pronounced the same way. As for the Blue Poppy romanization, it is some wierd hybrid of the 2 romanization systems. Either way, the Chinese characters remain consistent. Since we respect Master Tung for his ability, we simply adhere to his name in Wades Giles romanization. In Wades Giles, my last name is " Chu " , in Pinyin, it would be " Zhu " . I'm glad it was with a " C " so that in school, I always sat at the fromt of the class when lining up in alphabetocal order. As I often joke in my Master Tung seminars, who wants to go to Master Tong (Pain) Acupuncture? For the record, let's get it right! Finally, yes, the book is out of print. Best regards, On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:26 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.workswrote: > Hi, > Blue Poppy's publication of Master Tong's Acupuncture has that > spelling throughout -- Tong Jing-Chang. Are we talking about the same > chap? I assume we are. This is, of course, Miriam Lee's translation; i > believe it's out of print. > ann > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > > > Ann, > > > > Very good! Of course, you can vary the upper point depending on > > signs and > > symptoms. Any more secrets, and I'll have to kill ya! > > > > Yes, Master Tung (Dong, not Tong) used the more colloquial Tian, Di, > > Ren, > > instead of the more scholarly Tian, Ren, Di. > > > > The channel is what counts. > > > > Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Tong is nice because tong is also " unblock " as in " unblock the collaterals (tong luo) " or " unblock the yang (tong yang) " - This character is also used in the phrase, " when there is blockage there is pain (bu tong ze tong) " Therefore tong seems like a very apropos name, 1) pain and 2) the strategy that one needs to do to get rid of it. -Jason Robert Chu Friday, October 24, 2008 12:30 AM Re: herbs to stop bleeding Hi Ann! Unfortunately, Blue Poppy got it wrong. His name romanized in Wades Giles is T'ung Ching-chang (we usually drop the apostrophe), whereas in standard Pin Yin it is Dong Jing-chang. Both are pronounced the same way. As for the Blue Poppy romanization, it is some wierd hybrid of the 2 romanization systems. Either way, the Chinese characters remain consistent. Since we respect Master Tung for his ability, we simply adhere to his name in Wades Giles romanization. In Wades Giles, my last name is " Chu " , in Pinyin, it would be " Zhu " . I'm glad it was with a " C " so that in school, I always sat at the fromt of the class when lining up in alphabetocal order. As I often joke in my Master Tung seminars, who wants to go to Master Tong (Pain) Acupuncture? For the record, let's get it right! Finally, yes, the book is out of print. Best regards, On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:26 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.workswrote: > Hi, > Blue Poppy's publication of Master Tong's Acupuncture has that > spelling throughout -- Tong Jing-Chang. Are we talking about the same > chap? I assume we are. This is, of course, Miriam Lee's translation; i > believe it's out of print. > ann > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > > > Ann, > > > > Very good! Of course, you can vary the upper point depending on > > signs and > > symptoms. Any more secrets, and I'll have to kill ya! > > > > Yes, Master Tung (Dong, not Tong) used the more colloquial Tian, Di, > > Ren, > > instead of the more scholarly Tian, Ren, Di. > > > > The channel is what counts. > > > > Best regards, -- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 10/24/2008 6:08 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 However, we should respect the man's name. Pinyinizing (!?) seems to have specific objections as well from Tung followers. Doug , " " wrote: > > Tong is nice because tong is also " unblock " as in " unblock the collaterals (tong luo) " or " unblock the yang (tong yang) " - This character is also used in the phrase, " when there is blockage there is pain (bu tong ze tong) " > > Therefore tong seems like a very apropos name, 1) pain and 2) the strategy that one needs to do to get rid of it. > > -Jason > > > Robert Chu > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:30 AM > > Re: herbs to stop bleeding > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Yes, Robert, that book is out of print, and I found a bit of explanation of the copyright wrangle here: http://www.worldtaa.org/tong.html -- " The Truth About Tung's Acupuncture " . This also has commentary on the background on the spelling issue. Also found your interview on Acupuncture Today. Interesting too. So... is Tung's Acupuncture by Wei-chieh Young the best on this style? (Perhaps I should put " best " in quotes :-) ann On Oct 23, 2008, at 12:30 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Hi Ann! > > Unfortunately, Blue Poppy got it wrong. His name romanized in Wades > Giles > is T'ung Ching-chang (we usually drop the apostrophe), whereas in > standard > Pin Yin it is Dong Jing-chang. Both are pronounced the same way. As > for > the Blue Poppy romanization, it is some wierd hybrid of the 2 > romanization > systems. Either way, the Chinese characters remain consistent. Since > we > respect Master Tung for his ability, we simply adhere to his name in > Wades > Giles romanization. > > In Wades Giles, my last name is " Chu " , in Pinyin, it would be " Zhu " . > I'm > glad it was with a " C " so that in school, I always sat at the fromt > of the > class when lining up in alphabetocal order. > > As I often joke in my Master Tung seminars, who wants to go to > Master Tong > (Pain) Acupuncture? > > For the record, let's get it right! Finally, yes, the book is out of > print. > > Best regards, > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:26 PM, A Brameier <snakeoil.works > >wrote: > > > Hi, > > Blue Poppy's publication of Master Tong's Acupuncture has that > > spelling throughout -- Tong Jing-Chang. Are we talking about the > same > > chap? I assume we are. This is, of course, Miriam Lee's > translation; i > > believe it's out of print. > > ann > > > > On Oct 22, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > > > > > Ann, > > > > > > Very good! Of course, you can vary the upper point depending on > > > signs and > > > symptoms. Any more secrets, and I'll have to kill ya! > > > > > > Yes, Master Tung (Dong, not Tong) used the more colloquial Tian, > Di, > > > Ren, > > > instead of the more scholarly Tian, Ren, Di. > > > > > > The channel is what counts. > > > > > > Best regards, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 , " Robert Chu " <chusauli wrote: > > Hi Ann! > > Unfortunately, Blue Poppy got it wrong. His name romanized in Wades Giles > is T'ung Ching-chang (we usually drop the apostrophe), whereas in standard > Pin Yin it is Dong Jing-chang. I think you (or Tung himself) reversed the apostrophes, his name in Wade-Giles should have the apostrophe on Ch'ang rather than Tung (Tong?). However, his actual passport could really have any combination of T'ung, Tung, Tong, etc, because the Taiwanese use of romanization is very inconsistent; it often doesn't follow Wade Giles correctly and it never uses mainland Pinyin. The reason for all these spelling differences is due to the different romanization style used in Taiwan vs. the PRC. Without the apostrophe, the Wade Giles system reads the T as D, or with the apostrophe, as a T sound, ditto for the chu (zhu) vs ch'u (chu), ching (jing) vs. ch'ing (qing), chang (zhang) vs. ch'ang (chang). Wade Giles is the system traditionally used by historians and Western universities, and it was the dominant system of romanization used in Taiwan until the latest Taiwanese creation, tongyong pinyin, which no one really knows how to use. The normal pinyin that most of us know is from mainland China, and it has never been used much in Taiwan (except in the Taipei city metro). The bottom line is that no Taiwanese person will like it if you spell their name with PRC Pinyin, so the respectful thing to do is to spell it the way that Dr. Tung (Tong?) himself spells it. The pronunciation is what most people know as dong, but most Taiwanese will take it very personally if one changes the spelling of their name into the convention used in the mainland. On the other hand, most Taiwanese people don't know how to express Chinese in roman letters, so the romanized Taiwanese spellings are often confusing to people who only know mainland Pinyin. Plus, there really isn't one consistent standard that is used in Taiwan, sometimes it is Wade Giles, sometimes tongyong pinyin, sometimes it is just phonetic and made up as it goes. Add to this the strong nationalist sentiment that led to Taiwan's recent creation of a whole new pinyin system (ciao for qiao, etc), and the pinyin situation in Taiwan is really a mess. Only foreigners use and pay attention to the roman letters, and foreigners generally only use mainland pinyin. No one knows how to decipher the new generation Taiwanese pinyin, but Taiwan won't ever adopt mainland pinyin because it will ruffle the feathers of the locals in Taiwan. For the sake of the foreigners (the only users of the romanization scheme instead of the Chinese characters) it would be much better if it everyone used the same standard, but the Taiwanese locals would be up in arms if Taiwan made the mainland system official. Basically an unsolvable dilemma for now. Anyway, these politics and conventions are at the center of the confusion. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 OF course, it was somewhat of a joke... -Jason Monday, October 27, 2008 8:07 AM Re: herbs to stop bleeding However, we should respect the man's name. Pinyinizing (!?) seems to have specific objections as well from Tung followers. Doug , " " wrote: > > Tong is nice because tong is also " unblock " as in " unblock the collaterals (tong luo) " or " unblock the yang (tong yang) " - This character is also used in the phrase, " when there is blockage there is pain (bu tong ze tong) " > > Therefore tong seems like a very apropos name, 1) pain and 2) the strategy that one needs to do to get rid of it. > > -Jason > > > Robert Chu > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:30 AM > > Re: herbs to stop bleeding > > -- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release 10/24/2008 6:08 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Awwww. ... :-) it was a Xiao Yao kind of day. Doug , " " wrote: > > OF course, it was somewhat of a joke... > > -Jason > > > > Monday, October 27, 2008 8:07 AM > > Re: herbs to stop bleeding > > > However, we should respect the man's name. Pinyinizing (!?) seems to > have specific objections as well from Tung followers. > Doug > > , " " > <@> wrote: > > > > Tong is nice because tong is also " unblock " as in " unblock the > collaterals (tong luo) " or " unblock the yang (tong yang) " - This > character is also used in the phrase, " when there is blockage there is > pain (bu tong ze tong) " > > > > Therefore tong seems like a very apropos name, 1) pain and 2) the > strategy that one needs to do to get rid of it. > > > > -Jason > > > > > > Robert Chu > > Friday, October 24, 2008 12:30 AM > > > > Re: herbs to stop bleeding > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release Date: 10/24/2008 6:08 PM > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.