herbs to stop bleeding, chasing the criminal, tears.

[Guest guest]

 Dear Martha and Master Z'ev,... absolutely, prescribing formulas (or any

modality) following the guidelines of pattern discrimination is always #1. I

assumed, I guess, that this was the protocol being being followed, yet not

resolving the problem satisfactorily, that is, finding the root and treating it.

Paradoxically though, we can sometimes feel we really see the root, the

constitutional basis of a person's health complaint and optimistically go for

eliminating/enhacing it, but OFTEN, it is like the disease entity acts like a

nasty chameleon, changing its location and presentation, like a criminal who

doesn't want to be found.

  We search and needle and rub (literally) out the back roads of the body, and

invite everything to harmonize them to wed them to the warmth and 'happy place' 

where life wants to be. But sometimes we see the moon in her window in a bad

month, and the next month the sun is calling too, and it changes. (Light bright

red bleeding one day, or month, the next month-dark with clots and/or stabbing

fixed pain in the ovaries, then ok, then ... hard to nail down. confusing.

search the classics.) 

    Keeping on top of the changing signs and symptoms day-by-day sometimes

hour-by-hour, and altering/modifying formulas, qi gong perspective, and points,

makes us chase that inflamation, that little pain, memory, whatever it is, to

the county line.

 Beyond there, all we can do is figure it all out, that is why I recommended

Yunnan Baiyao, with the san qi, because it helped in complicated bleeding cases

before, while I was honing in on an appropriate treatment strategy.

Re: herbs to stop bleeding

 

Monday, October 20, 2008, 12:21 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Martha,

 

The first thing you need to do is describe the bleeding. Is it

 

pale and watery, does she have a pale tongue and/or soggy pulse? Is

 

it thick, clotted, bright red, purple? Does it stop and start as in

 

beng lou/flooding and leaking? How many days of bleeding?

 

Also needed: age of patient, size of fibroids, medications.

 

 

 

There are many effective prescriptions, but the root cause of

 

bleeding must be addressed according to pattern. This may include

 

blood stasis, in which case use a formula such as shao fu zhu yu tang,

 

spleen yang vacuity cold, use a formula such as huang tu tang, spleen

 

qi vacuity fall, bu zhong yi qi tang with blood stanching medicinals,

 

liver qi depressive blood heat, or several other patterns. If there

 

is a chong/ren disharmony, formulas such as gu chong tang or jiao ai

 

tang should be considered.

 

 

 

By the way, I don't agree with the indiscriminate use of yunnan

 

baiyao for any kind of bleeding. The true ingredients are not known,

 

so it is hard to prescribe according to pattern. It is best reserved

 

for traumatic injury at best, not for internal conditions such as

 

this. One can use moxa ash in hot water in a pinch if one is not sure

 

what to do.

 

 

 

 

 

On Oct 19, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. wrote:

 

 

 

> Hi Everyone,

 

>

 

> I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but

 

> first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular

 

> success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding?

 

>

 

> Martha

 

> Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

 

> Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine

 

> 303-947-6224

 

> Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen.

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

But I think the point is that yunnanbaiyao is not indicated for this type of

problem. Of course one can use something like this to 'try' to stop the

bleeding, but still it should only be used for 2-3 days max. Hence not really

useful for this type of situation. There are other stop bleeding strategies that

can be employed.

 

IMHO, these bleeding patterns do not change day to day, it is a matter of

widening one's focus to see the true diagnosis, although this may sometimes be

difficult.

 

In general it is not really appropriate to 'stop bleeding' - Such a strategy

usually causes more stagnation. There are many doctors that throw lots of stop

bleeding herbs at patients and get quick results, this is easy. But it causes

long term problems. " For example, the bleeding may be less, but this can create

more stagnation, resulting in darker blood, increased lower abdominal pain,

increased lower back pain, and insomnia. " Of course in emergency situations (/

blood depletion) one must stop bleeding. In chronic low level bleeding, usually

treating the pathodynamic should suffice and should be relatively fast. CM is

usually quite successful for these cases.

 

I think more importantly is, if you are confident of your diagnosis and have

been treating for awhile (more than a few weeks) with no results, you should

refer to a Western medical practitioner. There may be something more serious

going on.

 

Hence after reading this case, I think the question should be focused on maybe

refining the dx, instead " how do I stop bleeding. " SO I agree with Z'ev, proper

differential diagnosis is probably the key here.

 

-

 

 

mystir

Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:51 PM

 

Re: herbs to stop bleeding, chasing the criminal, tears.

 

 

Dear Martha and Master Z'ev,... absolutely, prescribing formulas (or any

modality) following the guidelines of pattern discrimination is always #1. I

assumed, I guess, that this was the protocol being being followed, yet not

resolving the problem satisfactorily, that is, finding the root and treating it.

Paradoxically though, we can sometimes feel we really see the root, the

constitutional basis of a person's health complaint and optimistically go for

eliminating/enhacing it, but OFTEN, it is like the disease entity acts like a

nasty chameleon, changing its location and presentation, like a criminal who

doesn't want to be found.

We search and needle and rub (literally) out the back roads of the body, and

invite everything to harmonize them to wed them to the warmth and 'happy place'

where life wants to be. But sometimes we see the moon in her window in a bad

month, and the next month the sun is calling too, and it changes. (Light bright

red bleeding one day, or month, the next month-dark with clots and/or stabbing

fixed pain in the ovaries, then ok, then ... hard to nail down. confusing.

search the classics.)

Keeping on top of the changing signs and symptoms day-by-day sometimes

hour-by-hour, and altering/modifying formulas, qi gong perspective, and points,

makes us chase that inflamation, that little pain, memory, whatever it is, to

the county line.

Beyond there, all we can do is figure it all out, that is why I recommended

Yunnan Baiyao, with the san qi, because it helped in complicated bleeding cases

before, while I was honing in on an appropriate treatment strategy.

Re: herbs to stop bleeding

 

Monday, October 20, 2008, 12:21 AM

 

Martha,

 

The first thing you need to do is describe the bleeding. Is it

 

pale and watery, does she have a pale tongue and/or soggy pulse? Is

 

it thick, clotted, bright red, purple? Does it stop and start as in

 

beng lou/flooding and leaking? How many days of bleeding?

 

Also needed: age of patient, size of fibroids, medications.

 

There are many effective prescriptions, but the root cause of

 

bleeding must be addressed according to pattern. This may include

 

blood stasis, in which case use a formula such as shao fu zhu yu tang,

 

spleen yang vacuity cold, use a formula such as huang tu tang, spleen

 

qi vacuity fall, bu zhong yi qi tang with blood stanching medicinals,

 

liver qi depressive blood heat, or several other patterns. If there

 

is a chong/ren disharmony, formulas such as gu chong tang or jiao ai

 

tang should be considered.

 

By the way, I don't agree with the indiscriminate use of yunnan

 

baiyao for any kind of bleeding. The true ingredients are not known,

 

so it is hard to prescribe according to pattern. It is best reserved

 

for traumatic injury at best, not for internal conditions such as

 

this. One can use moxa ash in hot water in a pinch if one is not sure

 

what to do.

 

 

 

On Oct 19, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. wrote:

 

> Hi Everyone,

 

>

 

> I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but

 

> first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular

 

> success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding?

 

>

 

> Martha

 

> Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

 

> Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine

 

> 303-947-6224

 

> Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen.

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

In general it is not really appropriate to 'stop bleeding'.

 I surely agree, bleeding, like tears, is a way the body rids itself of harmful

things. But when it can't stop itself, we try to help.

.. " SO I agree with Z'ev, proper differential diagnosis is probably the key

here. "

Absolutely. You guys are at the top of this field.  You are the ones, when

everything else fails, it comes to your lap.

 The patient is averse to modern western tests and treatments, and her insurance

probably wont cover the art we love. So, ghetto medicine, tcm, is what we can

bring to the mass. It really is like that still. Cheap, effective, at the heart

of things.

 

 

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, wrote:

 

Re: herbs to stop bleeding, chasing the criminal, tears.

 

Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:41 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I think the point is that yunnanbaiyao is not indicated for this

type of problem. Of course one can use something like this to 'try' to stop the

bleeding, but still it should only be used for 2-3 days max. Hence not really

useful for this type of situation. There are other stop bleeding strategies that

can be employed.

 

 

 

IMHO, these bleeding patterns do not change day to day, it is a matter of

widening one's focus to see the true diagnosis, although this may sometimes be

difficult.

 

 

 

In general it is not really appropriate to 'stop bleeding' - Such a strategy

usually causes more stagnation. There are many doctors that throw lots of stop

bleeding herbs at patients and get quick results, this is easy. But it causes

long term problems. " For example, the bleeding may be less, but this can create

more stagnation, resulting in darker blood, increased lower abdominal pain,

increased lower back pain, and insomnia. " Of course in emergency situations (/

blood depletion) one must stop bleeding. In chronic low level bleeding, usually

treating the pathodynamic should suffice and should be relatively fast. CM is

usually quite successful for these cases.

 

 

 

I think more importantly is, if you are confident of your diagnosis and have

been treating for awhile (more than a few weeks) with no results, you should

refer to a Western medical practitioner. There may be something more serious

going on.

 

 

 

Hence after reading this case, I think the question should be focused on maybe

refining the dx, instead " how do I stop bleeding. " SO I agree with Z'ev, proper

differential diagnosis is probably the key here.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

mystir

 

Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:51 PM

 

 

 

Re: herbs to stop bleeding, chasing the criminal, tears.

 

 

 

Dear Martha and Master Z'ev,... absolutely, prescribing formulas (or any

modality) following the guidelines of pattern discrimination is always #1. I

assumed, I guess, that this was the protocol being being followed, yet not

resolving the problem satisfactorily, that is, finding the root and treating it.

Paradoxically though, we can sometimes feel we really see the root, the

constitutional basis of a person's health complaint and optimistically go for

eliminating/ enhacing it, but OFTEN, it is like the disease entity acts like a

nasty chameleon, changing its location and presentation, like a criminal who

doesn't want to be found.

 

We search and needle and rub (literally) out the back roads of the body, and

invite everything to harmonize them to wed them to the warmth and 'happy place'

where life wants to be. But sometimes we see the moon in her window in a bad

month, and the next month the sun is calling too, and it changes. (Light bright

red bleeding one day, or month, the next month-dark with clots and/or stabbing

fixed pain in the ovaries, then ok, then ... hard to nail down. confusing.

search the classics.)

 

Keeping on top of the changing signs and symptoms day-by-day sometimes

hour-by-hour, and altering/modifying formulas, qi gong perspective, and points,

makes us chase that inflamation, that little pain, memory, whatever it is, to

the county line.

 

Beyond there, all we can do is figure it all out, that is why I recommended

Yunnan Baiyao, with the san qi, because it helped in complicated bleeding cases

before, while I was honing in on an appropriate treatment strategy.

 

Re: herbs to stop bleeding

 

 

 

Monday, October 20, 2008, 12:21 AM

 

 

 

Martha,

 

 

 

The first thing you need to do is describe the bleeding. Is it

 

 

 

pale and watery, does she have a pale tongue and/or soggy pulse? Is

 

 

 

it thick, clotted, bright red, purple? Does it stop and start as in

 

 

 

beng lou/flooding and leaking? How many days of bleeding?

 

 

 

Also needed: age of patient, size of fibroids, medications.

 

 

 

There are many effective prescriptions, but the root cause of

 

 

 

bleeding must be addressed according to pattern. This may include

 

 

 

blood stasis, in which case use a formula such as shao fu zhu yu tang,

 

 

 

spleen yang vacuity cold, use a formula such as huang tu tang, spleen

 

 

 

qi vacuity fall, bu zhong yi qi tang with blood stanching medicinals,

 

 

 

liver qi depressive blood heat, or several other patterns. If there

 

 

 

is a chong/ren disharmony, formulas such as gu chong tang or jiao ai

 

 

 

tang should be considered.

 

 

 

By the way, I don't agree with the indiscriminate use of yunnan

 

 

 

baiyao for any kind of bleeding. The true ingredients are not known,

 

 

 

so it is hard to prescribe according to pattern. It is best reserved

 

 

 

for traumatic injury at best, not for internal conditions such as

 

 

 

this. One can use moxa ash in hot water in a pinch if one is not sure

 

 

 

what to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Oct 19, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac. wrote:

 

 

 

> Hi Everyone,

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> I have a pt w/ fibroids of various sizes that I'll be treating but

 

 

 

> first we need to get her to stop bleeding. Has anyone had particular

 

 

 

> success using herbs to stop uterine bleeding?

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Martha

 

 

 

> Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

 

 

 

> Practitioner and Instructor of Oriental Medicine

 

 

 

> 303-947-6224

 

 

 

> Have Patience, be Inspired, practice Gratitude. Miracles happen.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

 

Can you expound on your statement: " in general it is not really appropriate

to 'stop bleeding' " ?

 

At face value, I disagree, however perhaps you had a specific meaning that I

am not getting. I do agree that the *way* one stops the abnormal bleeding

(i.e., the differential dx used to guide the treatment protocol) can

contribute to futher pathology due to incorrect treatment. And perhaps that

is what you were getting at?

 

However I do believe that in cases where there is abnormal bleeding (as in

the case of Flooding & Spotting (beng lou/metrorrhagia), or trauma as

examples) that stopping the abnormal bleeding (according to proper diff dx)

must be paramount in the treatment plan.

 

J

 

________

Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

Board Certified in Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine

Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This comes from the quote by Qin Bo-Wei, “It is appropriate to promote the

movement of blood and not to stop bleeding†This has nothing to do with proper

pattern differentiation, which I hope is a given. It has to do with using stop

bleeding medicinals – and the principle behind your one’s treatment. The

reason that I originally decided to post was because of the nature of the

original question and the responses that followed. Just applying methods to

“stop bleeding†is incorrect.

 

 

 

As previously explained, most medicinals that will stop bleeding, also have a

tendency to cause further stagnation. If there is an emergency then of course

one should stop bleeding with such herbs. However if there is no emergency and

just bleeding you treat the pattern without “stop bleedingâ€. This does mean

you cannot include herbs that are known to stop bleeding herbs. Here is a more

complete quote from the Qin Bo-Wei book I am working on.

 

 

 

“Furthermore, one should not merely use stop bleeding medicinals which will

also result in stagnation. For example, medicinals like xueyutan, shuditan, and

ejiao have a tendency to create stagnation. One can use mudanpitan, oujietan,

and chishaotan safely. This is especially true when one sees any hint of

stagnation, such as clots. For example, with situations of irregular uterine

bleeding, many doctors will use stop bleeding medicinals. Unless there is an

emergency, this is incorrect. For example, the bleeding may be less, but this

can create more stagnation, resulting in darker blood, increased lower abdominal

pain, increased lower back pain, and insomnia.â€

 

Therefore I am not referring to a incorrectly treated pattern causing problems.

I am referring to an overall mindset / approach.

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

Joy Keller

Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:43 AM

 

Re: herbs to stop bleeding, chasing the criminal, tears.

 

 

Hi Jason,

 

Can you expound on your statement: " in general it is not really appropriate

to 'stop bleeding' " ?

 

At face value, I disagree, however perhaps you had a specific meaning that I

am not getting. I do agree that the *way* one stops the abnormal bleeding

(i.e., the differential dx used to guide the treatment protocol) can

contribute to futher pathology due to incorrect treatment. And perhaps that

is what you were getting at?

 

However I do believe that in cases where there is abnormal bleeding (as in

the case of Flooding & Spotting (beng lou/metrorrhagia), or trauma as

examples) that stopping the abnormal bleeding (according to proper diff dx)

must be paramount in the treatment plan.

 

J

 

________

Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

Board Certified in Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine

Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow great, can't wait to read it. So many finer points.

 

--- On Thu, 10/23/08, wrote:

 

Re: herbs to stop bleeding, chasing the criminal, tears.

 

Thursday, October 23, 2008, 3:46 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This comes from the quote by Qin Bo-Wei, “It is appropriate to

promote the movement of blood and not to stop bleeding” This has nothing to do

with proper pattern differentiation, which I hope is a given. It has to do with

using stop bleeding medicinals – and the principle behind your one’s treatment.

The reason that I originally decided to post was because of the nature of the

original question and the responses that followed. Just applying methods to

“stop bleeding” is incorrect.