Ma huang

[Guest guest]

I have a patient, mid 20s, who has been on various anti-depressants

including amphetamine type prescriptions written by his psychiatrist.

If there is ADD, he might be a good candidate.

 

Recently under the watch of his psychiatrist has gotten off all

medications. However, he got his hands on some raw Ma Huang. He says

that a few twigs of it as a tea, which he sips through the day,

greatly helps his concentration. He is a self-employed computer worker.

 

He asked my advice and I said it didn't seem like a bad idea and he

should try to slow down and then stop the Ma Huang. His pulse was

neither fast nor floating and otherwise he seemed good.

 

How bad of idea is his Ma Huang habit?

 

Doug

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug,

ma huang is a carrier to help pump heart but treatment.

gan mai da zao tang or sheng mai san are better choice to sip all day than ma

huang.

my two cents..

 

 

 

Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

BOD & Chair of Suppliers Committee

(AAAOM)

American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

310-951-8698 (cell)

 

" I think, therefore I am. "

NOTICE: The information contained herein is confidential and is intended only

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not the intended recipient, any disclosure, distribution or the taking of any

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you have received this information in error, please notify the sender

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________________________________

 

 

Monday, November 10, 2008 9:51:41 PM

Ma huang

 

 

I have a patient, mid 20s, who has been on various anti-depressants

including amphetamine type prescriptions written by his psychiatrist.

If there is ADD, he might be a good candidate.

 

Recently under the watch of his psychiatrist has gotten off all

medications. However, he got his hands on some raw Ma Huang. He says

that a few twigs of it as a tea, which he sips through the day,

greatly helps his concentration. He is a self-employed computer worker.

 

He asked my advice and I said it didn't seem like a bad idea and he

should try to slow down and then stop the Ma Huang. His pulse was

neither fast nor floating and otherwise he seemed good.

 

How bad of idea is his Ma Huang habit?

 

Doug

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

" A few twigs " ? Doesn't sound like a big deal to me. Perhaps the Ma Huang

serves as a placebo for his depression?

 

Might also be the tea making ceremony. Ceremony can be very therapeutic,

especially if it brings him into the moment ala " meditation in action. "

 

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 9:51 PM, wrote:

 

 

> How bad of idea is his Ma Huang habit?

>

> Doug

>

 

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Many athletes that I treat had a 'Ma Haung' habit, when it was

available over the counter as a diet aid in many OTC formulas. Over

time it depletes the Adrenals, and draws energies from the Kidney Yin

Jing and Kidney Yang Jing. Eventually, most people that take Ma Huang

for an extended period of time may start to experience chronic

headaches, and feel malaise.

 

What's really interesting, from a Pharmacological pov, so many the ADD

drugs are analogs of Norepinephrine or Pseudoephedrine (ie Adderall).

In Psycho-Phamacology, often times, the founation of treatment for ADD

from a med perspective is some sort of Amphetamine like substances

that many times is related to the Ephedrine Family. However the analog

has been modified, perfected, so that the isomer may have little

resemblence to our beloved Wind-Cold Releasing herb, Ma Haung.

 

It seems that the fact that your patient seems to 'feel better' from

sipping a Ma Huang Tea during the day, may be a confirming diagnosis

that he or she has some sort of ADD related pattern.

 

What is the total amount he is sipping each time ? Per day ?

 

The reason I ask is perhaps a formulation with a very very minute

amount of Ma Huang could resonate with your patient ? I mean a tiny

amount. This is new territory for me, having never put any patient on

Ma Huang for an extended period of time.

 

It would be a good idea to herbally support his Kidney Jing, to

prevent exhaustion of his adrendals. Herbs such as He Shou Wu, Hong

Jing Tian, Wu Jia Pi, Lu Rong, etc.

 

Is your patient currently on any herbal formulas you have created ?

 

Also, Zang-Fu wise, what is his TCM Dx ?

 

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> I have a patient, mid 20s, who has been on various anti-depressants

> including amphetamine type prescriptions written by his psychiatrist.

> If there is ADD, he might be a good candidate.

>

> Recently under the watch of his psychiatrist has gotten off all

> medications. However, he got his hands on some raw Ma Huang. He says

> that a few twigs of it as a tea, which he sips through the day,

> greatly helps his concentration. He is a self-employed computer

worker.

>

> He asked my advice and I said it didn't seem like a bad idea and he

> should try to slow down and then stop the Ma Huang. His pulse was

> neither fast nor floating and otherwise he seemed good.

>

> How bad of idea is his Ma Huang habit?

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

I actually am in great need of Ma Huang, given the climate and

altitude of my practice. Can anyone recommend a supplier who can

provide Ma Huang in the US? None of my usual suppliers carry it any more.

[Guest guest]

Try Mayway.com

 

-

Napalm_Jones

Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:41 AM

Re: Ma huang

 

 

I actually am in great need of Ma Huang, given the climate and

altitude of my practice. Can anyone recommend a supplier who can

provide Ma Huang in the US? None of my usual suppliers carry it any more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mayway discontinued it along time ago.  I don't know about elsewhere, but as

recently as a couple of months ago, it was still available in Chinatown, LA

to practitioners,  but the shopkeepers won't tell you that they have it unless

they know you.  DEA  and FDAagents constantly try entrapping them to sell

them illegal substances. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Tue, 11/11/08, FrankCuns-Rial <FrankCuns-Rial

wrote:

 

FrankCuns-Rial <FrankCuns-Rial

Re: Re: Ma huang

 

Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 3:14 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Try Mayway.com

 

-

Napalm_Jones

 

Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:41 AM

Re: Ma huang

 

I actually am in great need of Ma Huang, given the climate and

altitude of my practice. Can anyone recommend a supplier who can

provide Ma Huang in the US? None of my usual suppliers carry it any more.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Mayway discontinued it along time ago.  I don't know about elsewhere,

but as recently as a couple of months ago, it was still available in

Chinatown, LA to practitioners,  but the shopkeepers won't tell you

that they have it unless they know you.  DEA  and FDAagents constantly

try entrapping them to sell them illegal substances. 

 

But ma huang is not illegal in its raw form. Unless things have

changed recently, ma huang is only restricted as a concentrated

extract, not as a crude substance. Is my understanding correct?

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

That's not the feedback that I get from my suppliers. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus

Re: Ma huang

 

Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 11:15 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

, yehuda frischman

<@.. .> wrote:

>

> Mayway discontinued it along time ago.  I don't know about elsewhere,

but as recently as a couple of months ago, it was still available in

Chinatown, LA to practitioners,  but the shopkeepers won' t tell you

that they have it unless they know you.  DEA  and FDAagents constantly

try entrapping them  to sell them illegal substances. 

 

But ma huang is not illegal in its raw form. Unless things have

changed recently, ma huang is only restricted as a concentrated

extract, not as a crude substance. Is my understanding correct?

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

 

> .But ma huang is not illegal in its raw form. Unless things have

> changed recently, ma huang is only restricted as a concentrated

> extract, not as a crude substance. Is my understanding correct?

>

 

As of a few months back, I was able to get the extract from my supplier.

Although nobody really knows for sure, the FDA did say that the ban didn't

apply to the practice of Chinese medicine.Perhaps that suggests raw only,

but I'm not having any problems getting it.

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I was told by my supplier that it's not FDA that is getting in the way. It's the

US custom which is blocking the import.

 

 

Mike L.

 

--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Al Stone <al wrote:

 

Al Stone <al

Re: Re: Ma huang

 

Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 4:39 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Eric Brand <smilinglotus@ > wrote:

 

> .But ma huang is not illegal in its raw form. Unless things have

> changed recently, ma huang is only restricted as a concentrated

> extract, not as a crude substance. Is my understanding correct?

>

 

As of a few months back, I was able to get the extract from my supplier.

Although nobody really knows for sure, the FDA did say that the ban didn't

apply to the practice of Chinese medicine.Perhaps that suggests raw only,

but I'm not having any problems getting it.

 

-al.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have heard the same. Customs stops them at the border so companies

stopped importing. That's what Mayway told me a year or so back.

 

Tim Sharpe

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Mike Liaw

Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:36 AM

 

Re: Re: Ma huang

 

I was told by my supplier that it's not FDA that is getting in the way. It's

the US custom which is blocking the import.

 

 

Mike L.

[Guest guest]

As has been explained to me, a licensed practitioner can use Ma Huang,

no problem, but nothing containing ephedra alkaloids can be imported.

If a supplier has it, they are allowed to sell it to you, but they

can't import more.

 

 

 

, " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

>

> > .But ma huang is not illegal in its raw form. Unless things have

> > changed recently, ma huang is only restricted as a concentrated

> > extract, not as a crude substance. Is my understanding correct?

> >

>

> As of a few months back, I was able to get the extract from my supplier.

> Although nobody really knows for sure, the FDA did say that the ban

didn't

> apply to the practice of Chinese medicine.Perhaps that suggests raw

only,

> but I'm not having any problems getting it.

>

> -al.

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Napalm_Jones "

<hahlefelder wrote:

>

>

> As has been explained to me, a licensed practitioner can use Ma Huang,

> no problem, but nothing containing ephedra alkaloids can be imported.

> If a supplier has it, they are allowed to sell it to you, but they

> can't import more.

 

I think that this is not entirely correct, though I'd be interested to

learn more about your source for the info. On the FDA website, it is

clear that any dietary supplement containing ephedrine alkaloids is

banned. Since all the concentrated products that our community uses

are sold as dietary supplements according to law, there is no ephedra

allowed in any of the products that are sold as dietary supplements.

However, it appears to still be fine as a bulk herb rather than as a

dietary supplement. See the following quote from the FDA website:

 

" Essentially all currently marketed dietary supplements that contain

ephedrine alkaloids will be affected by the rule. The scope of the rule

does not pertain to traditional Chinese herbal remedies. It generally

doesn't apply to products like herbal teas that are regulated as

conventional foods. Ephedra is not Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS)

for foods and not approved for use as a food additive. "

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

It was explained to me by a supplier I deal with a lot, as well as

someone at the local acupuncture college, hence my stating 'as

explained to me'. I in no way am saying this is absolute fact, though

I took the statement " The scope of the rule does not pertain to

traditional Chinese herbal remedies " to mean the ban does not apply to

us. Again, I'm just trying to figure it out like everyone else, and

stating what I've heard. For me it's a moot point, though, since as

much as I need it, I can't find anyone who sells it. Again, any

sources most welcome. I have some friends who go to China regularly on

business, whom I may ask to try to get me some.

 

 

, " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus wrote:

>

> , " Napalm_Jones "

> <hahlefelder@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > As has been explained to me, a licensed practitioner can use Ma Huang,

> > no problem, but nothing containing ephedra alkaloids can be imported.

> > If a supplier has it, they are allowed to sell it to you, but they

> > can't import more.

>

> I think that this is not entirely correct, though I'd be interested to

> learn more about your source for the info. On the FDA website, it is

> clear that any dietary supplement containing ephedrine alkaloids is

> banned. Since all the concentrated products that our community uses

> are sold as dietary supplements according to law, there is no ephedra

> allowed in any of the products that are sold as dietary supplements.

> However, it appears to still be fine as a bulk herb rather than as a

> dietary supplement. See the following quote from the FDA website:

>

> " Essentially all currently marketed dietary supplements that contain

> ephedrine alkaloids will be affected by the rule. The scope of the rule

> does not pertain to traditional Chinese herbal remedies. It generally

> doesn't apply to products like herbal teas that are regulated as

> conventional foods. Ephedra is not Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS)

> for foods and not approved for use as a food additive. "

>

> Eric Brand

>

[Guest guest]

As mentioned, Mayway doesn't carry it in any form. Thanks for the tip,

though, any other ideas?

 

, " FrankCuns-Rial "

<FrankCuns-Rial wrote:

>

> Try Mayway.com

>

> -

> Napalm_Jones

>

> Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:41 AM

> Re: Ma huang

>

>

> I actually am in great need of Ma Huang, given the climate and

> altitude of my practice. Can anyone recommend a supplier who can

> provide Ma Huang in the US? None of my usual suppliers carry it

any more.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Napalm_Jones "

<hahlefelder wrote:

>

> It was explained to me by a supplier I deal with a lot, as well as

> someone at the local acupuncture college, hence my stating 'as

> explained to me'. I in no way am saying this is absolute fact, though

> I took the statement " The scope of the rule does not pertain to

> traditional Chinese herbal remedies " to mean the ban does not apply to

> us. Again, I'm just trying to figure it out like everyone else, and

> stating what I've heard. For me it's a moot point, though, since as

> much as I need it, I can't find anyone who sells it. Again, any

> sources most welcome. I have some friends who go to China regularly on

> business, whom I may ask to try to get me some.

 

It is a bit hard to figure out this issue, simply because different

sources report different things, and there seems to be a difference

between the FDA law and the customs enforcement. It seems that ma

huang isn't available from granule or liquid extract suppliers, but it

remains available in Chinatown pharmacies (though more irregularly than

before). Probably the best thing is to regularly visit a Chinese

pharmacy, make a relationship with the boss by buying normal stuff like

huang qi and visiting regularly, then ask for ma huang, assuming that

you need just a modest amount. The ma huang sold in herb shops isn't

really restricted, since it falls under the food category instead of

the dietary supplement category, but many Chinese pharmacists aren't

very clear about US law and they are often intimidated by our language

and legal culture, so they are cautious about selling it. Any larger

company that sells prepared products as dietary supplements will

probably not have it, or won't dare to sell their backstock even if

they do have it.

 

Speaking of vaguely defined herb availability issues, does anybody know

what the deal is with xi xin? According to the FDA, xi xin is

generally restricted for internal use, but it is permitted if it lacks

AA (aristolochic acid). It seems that no one sells it in a prepared

form anymore, yet the granule products in Taiwan also conform to strict

laws about AA, and granule xi xin remains on the market there. I think

that xi xin often lacks AA, so a tested source should be ok, yet it

remains unavailable. Other complicated herbs are bing lang, fu zi, and

wu ling zhi, all of which appear to be suffering from some random but

unclear enforcement problems that limit their availability.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

Apparantely, pseudofed (pseudoephedrine) which is a derivative of ephedrine is

one of the ingredients from that is used to make crystal meth amphetamine. 

Fortunately, most herbal suppliers are aware of this and are making ma huang

(which contains ephedrine alkaloids) unavailable to indivduals whom they suppect

could be using it for this purpose.

 

Sincerely,

Steve

 

--- On Fri, 11/14/08, Napalm_Jones <hahlefelder wrote:

 

Napalm_Jones <hahlefelder

Re: Ma huang

 

Friday, November 14, 2008, 6:44 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

As mentioned, Mayway doesn't carry it in any form. Thanks for the tip,

though, any other ideas?

 

, " FrankCuns-Rial@ ... "

<FrankCuns-Rial@ ...> wrote:

>

> Try Mayway.com

>

> -

> Napalm_Jones

>

> Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:41 AM

> Re: Ma huang

>

>

> I actually am in great need of Ma Huang, given the climate and

> altitude of my practice. Can anyone recommend a supplier who can

> provide Ma Huang in the US? None of my usual suppliers carry it

any more.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good info, Eric, thanks.

 

I would also add Han Fang Ji to that list as well.

 

 

, " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus wrote:

>

> , " Napalm_Jones "

> <hahlefelder@> wrote:

> >

> > It was explained to me by a supplier I deal with a lot, as well as

> > someone at the local acupuncture college, hence my stating 'as

> > explained to me'. I in no way am saying this is absolute fact, though

> > I took the statement " The scope of the rule does not pertain to

> > traditional Chinese herbal remedies " to mean the ban does not apply to

> > us. Again, I'm just trying to figure it out like everyone else, and

> > stating what I've heard. For me it's a moot point, though, since as

> > much as I need it, I can't find anyone who sells it. Again, any

> > sources most welcome. I have some friends who go to China regularly on

> > business, whom I may ask to try to get me some.

>

> It is a bit hard to figure out this issue, simply because different

> sources report different things, and there seems to be a difference

> between the FDA law and the customs enforcement. It seems that ma

> huang isn't available from granule or liquid extract suppliers, but it

> remains available in Chinatown pharmacies (though more irregularly than

> before). Probably the best thing is to regularly visit a Chinese

> pharmacy, make a relationship with the boss by buying normal stuff like

> huang qi and visiting regularly, then ask for ma huang, assuming that

> you need just a modest amount. The ma huang sold in herb shops isn't

> really restricted, since it falls under the food category instead of

> the dietary supplement category, but many Chinese pharmacists aren't

> very clear about US law and they are often intimidated by our language

> and legal culture, so they are cautious about selling it. Any larger

> company that sells prepared products as dietary supplements will

> probably not have it, or won't dare to sell their backstock even if

> they do have it.

>

> Speaking of vaguely defined herb availability issues, does anybody know

> what the deal is with xi xin? According to the FDA, xi xin is

> generally restricted for internal use, but it is permitted if it lacks

> AA (aristolochic acid). It seems that no one sells it in a prepared

> form anymore, yet the granule products in Taiwan also conform to strict

> laws about AA, and granule xi xin remains on the market there. I think

> that xi xin often lacks AA, so a tested source should be ok, yet it

> remains unavailable. Other complicated herbs are bing lang, fu zi, and

> wu ling zhi, all of which appear to be suffering from some random but

> unclear enforcement problems that limit their availability.

>

> Eric Brand

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Eric,

 

Last I checked, Duong Xuan Duong, where you used to work in San Diego, told me

they could no longer bring it into the country, even in the raw form.

 

Blessings,

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

Eric Brand <smilinglotus

Re: Ma huang

 

Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 12:15 PM

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Mayway discontinued it along time ago.  I don't know about

elsewhere,

but as recently as a couple of months ago, it was still available in

Chinatown, LA to practitioners,  but the shopkeepers won't tell you

that they have it unless they know you.  DEA  and FDAagents constantly

try entrapping them to sell them illegal substances. 

 

But ma huang is not illegal in its raw form. Unless things have

changed recently, ma huang is only restricted as a concentrated

extract, not as a crude substance. Is my understanding correct?

 

Eric

 

 

---

 

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