Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hi everyone, I've been wondering about the old discussion about the herb dan shen (salvia root) being equal in functionality to the formula si wu tang. From the references I have, I can't seem to find anything that mentions its action of building blood. Does anyone know more about this statement? If there is any herb that seems similar in its actions to si wu tang, I'd have to say it would be something like ji xue teng (millettia root) because it both builds blood and invigorates it. Any thoughts? -Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 You are correct, this statement / idea appears throughout Chinese medical literature. One version of the quote is ¡È𻲸ùƱ»Íʪ¡É Further commentary from a Qin Bo-Wei book, is that it (dan shen) is ¡Èpraised for having the function of nourishing the blood as well as the function of invigorating the blood¡É - Also Bensky says that it does both. Ji xue teng is not close to si wu tang, because it works on a different level. Ji xue teng works more on the jing-luo (as well as menses), whereas si wu tang is more on the organ level. It is more substantial. Dan shen also works on the organ level. Just my 2 cents¡Ä -Jason On Behalf Of Santa Cruz Acupuncture Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:03 AM Dan Shen = Si Wu Tang Hi everyone, I've been wondering about the old discussion about the herb dan shen (salvia root) being equal in functionality to the formula si wu tang. From the references I have, I can't seem to find anything that mentions its action of building blood. Does anyone know more about this statement? If there is any herb that seems similar in its actions to si wu tang, I'd have to say it would be something like ji xue teng (millettia root) because it both builds blood and invigorates it. Any thoughts? -Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Maybe Dan shen is like Sheng di + Chuan xiong + Chi shao (move and cool blood) (not Dang gui + Shu di, which tonifies and warms blood). So, I think that Dan shen is more like Xue fu zhu yu tang than Si wu tang, because Xue fu zhu yu tang uses (Sheng di instead of Shu di, Chi shao instead of Bai shao) and adds blood movers (Tao ren and Hong hua) and Si ni san (with Zhi ke instead of Zhi shi). Dan shen has more affinity for the chest (HT,PC), like Ren 17 and UB 14, like Xue fu zhu yu tang, while Si wu tang directs more to the lower jiao: (LV,SP,KD) like SP 6 and LV 8. Dan shen tonifies blood only because it clears the way for new blood generation (like clearing the fridge, so that more groceries can be added) It's not the meat and potatoes, but the cranberry sauce. Hong hua can tonify blood too, at a dose of .8-1.5 gms. I think that the principle is similar here. It tonifies/harmonizes blood, because at a small dose, it doesn't move blood very strongly, but allows for new blood to enter. K. 2008/11/13 > You are correct, this statement / idea appears throughout Chinese > medical > literature. One version of the quote is " 𻲸ùƱ»Íʪ " Further commentary > from a Qin Bo-Wei book, is that it (dan shen) is " praised for having the > function of nourishing the blood as well as the function of invigorating > the > blood " - Also Bensky says that it does both. > > Ji xue teng is not close to si wu tang, because it works on a different > level. Ji xue teng works more on the jing-luo (as well as menses), whereas > si wu tang is more on the organ level. It is more substantial. Dan shen > also > works on the organ level. > > Just my 2 cents¡Ä > > -Jason > > <%40> > [ <%40>\ ] > On Behalf Of Santa Cruz > Acupuncture > Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:03 AM > <%40> > Dan Shen = Si Wu Tang > > > Hi everyone, > I've been wondering about the old discussion about the herb dan shen > (salvia root) being equal in functionality to the formula si wu tang. > From the references I have, I can't seem to find anything that > mentions its action of building blood. Does anyone know more about > this statement? If there is any herb that seems similar in its > actions to si wu tang, I'd have to say it would be something like ji > xue teng (millettia root) because it both builds blood and invigorates > it. Any thoughts? > > -Danny > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 , Santa Cruz Acupuncture <danny wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I've been wondering about the old discussion about the herb dan shen > (salvia root) being equal in functionality to the formula si wu tang. > From the references I have, I can't seem to find anything that > mentions its action of building blood. Does anyone know more about > this statement? Most sources emphasize the blood moving effect of dan shen (salvia) and don't specifically ascribe it a blood-nourishing action. The traditional statement that it is equivalent to si wu tang is generally taken to mean that its moderate and harmonious nature allows it to move blood without damaging the blood, with the emphasis on its balanced and moderate nature rather than any connotation that it is rich and strongly supplementing to the blood directly. It " dispels stasis to engender new [blood] without damaging right. " In classical texts, we find a number of references: Ben Cao Gang Mu says that it " can break abiding blood and engender new blood. " The statement that " the action of single ingredient dan shen san are the same as si wu tang " is found in the text Fu Ke Ming Li Lun. Ri Hua Zi Ben Cao states that it " nourishes the blood and settles the mind " (yang xin ding zhi). Another ben cao text says that " although dan shen has shen (ginseng) in its name, its supplementing strength is insufficient and its blood- quickening strength is superabundant. " So there is definitely support in the literature for the concept that dan shen has supplementing effects, but the general modern consensus is that it is primarily a blood-moving herb that shines because its moderate nature allows for blood-quickening without damage to the blood. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 , Santa Cruz Acupuncture <danny wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I've been wondering about the old discussion about the herb dan shen > (salvia root) being equal in functionality to the formula si wu tang. > From the references I have, I can't seem to find anything that > mentions its action of building blood. Does anyone know more about > this statement? Most sources emphasize the blood moving effect of dan shen (salvia) and don't specifically ascribe it a blood-nourishing action. The traditional statement that it is equivalent to si wu tang is generally taken to mean that its moderate and harmonious nature allows it to move blood without damaging the blood, with the emphasis on its balanced and moderate nature rather than any connotation that it is rich and strongly supplementing to the blood directly. It " dispels stasis to engender new [blood] without damaging right. " In classical texts, we find a number of references: Ben Cao Gang Mu says that it " can break abiding blood and engender new blood. " The statement that " the action of single ingredient dan shen san are the same as si wu tang " is found in the text Fu Ke Ming Li Lun. Ri Hua Zi Ben Cao states that it " nourishes the blood and settles the mind " (yang xin ding zhi). Another ben cao text says that " although dan shen has shen (ginseng) in its name, its supplementing strength is insufficient and its blood- quickening strength is superabundant. " So there is definitely support in the literature for the concept that dan shen has supplementing effects, but the general modern consensus is that it is primarily a blood-moving herb that shines because its moderate nature allows for blood-quickening without damage to the blood. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Commentary from the book I am working on says that dan shen is 70% invigorating and 30% nourishing. Although this sort of thing is pretty much impossible to prove, we must understand these type of statements within some context instead of viewing them as an isolated idea. Of course it is a mistake to believe that dan shen can be substituted for si wu tang, and I do not think that is the point. To understand the full scope of such a statement one must comprehend the signs and symptoms, pattern, and other herbs dan shen is combined with. I am just as guilty, because I did not post the whole commentary and formula that the quote that I mentioned comes from. But just looking at such idea in isolation may be useful for some discussion but not that useful in understanding the original author's idea of what this meant. In such situations I like to see how such an author, not only uses a given herb in that situation, but in other formulas and patterns (from the same author). Many times such a statement is only for a certain combination of herbs or specific pattern. Sometimes it is just the author's idiosyncratic viewpoint. Other times it is something extremely profound that we must search for a deeper meaning. Of course we all understand dan shen is invigorating so why would people make a big deal about its nourishing properties. This is the question. Furthermore without context, it is difficult to say what levels/layer that supplementation can occur on. IMO, it is much too simplified to just say that a medicinal just nourishes blood. But one idea about how to use dan shen in this context is in Bensky's material medica. My book will give a slightly different viewpoint. As stated previously there is evidence for all sorts of angles on this one. I just like to point out the least obvious ones, because many times there are important ideas that get missed in many modern books/materia medicas. With the state of China's medicine, modern TCMs consensus, although useful at times, is many times not that appealing to me. I personally find much wisdom, from sources that have seemingly slipped through the cracks. The more consensus there is the more reductionism, simplification, and homogenization of ideas. Many times ideas should be kept separate. This brings up a huge debate in Chinese medicine, which I am not prepared to get into. But I will say I am a big fan of synthesis and systemization when done properly. I personally leave such a chore to the masters. I do think though that relying on either one exclusively (someone's individual idea or modern consensus) is dangerous. Both can be useful. Some more food for thought, -Jason On Behalf Of Eric Brand Thursday, November 13, 2008 5:06 PM Re: Dan Shen = Si Wu Tang <%40> , Santa Cruz Acupuncture <danny wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I've been wondering about the old discussion about the herb dan shen > (salvia root) being equal in functionality to the formula si wu tang. > From the references I have, I can't seem to find anything that > mentions its action of building blood. Does anyone know more about > this statement? Most sources emphasize the blood moving effect of dan shen (salvia) and don't specifically ascribe it a blood-nourishing action. The traditional statement that it is equivalent to si wu tang is generally taken to mean that its moderate and harmonious nature allows it to move blood without damaging the blood, with the emphasis on its balanced and moderate nature rather than any connotation that it is rich and strongly supplementing to the blood directly. It " dispels stasis to engender new [blood] without damaging right. " In classical texts, we find a number of references: Ben Cao Gang Mu says that it " can break abiding blood and engender new blood. " The statement that " the action of single ingredient dan shen san are the same as si wu tang " is found in the text Fu Ke Ming Li Lun. Ri Hua Zi Ben Cao states that it " nourishes the blood and settles the mind " (yang xin ding zhi). Another ben cao text says that " although dan shen has shen (ginseng) in its name, its supplementing strength is insufficient and its blood- quickening strength is superabundant. " So there is definitely support in the literature for the concept that dan shen has supplementing effects, but the general modern consensus is that it is primarily a blood-moving herb that shines because its moderate nature allows for blood-quickening without damage to the blood. Eric Brand Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1780 - Release 11/13/2008 9:12 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Danny, Our herbal lecturers always remind us that Chinese medicine doctors should see themselves as a general in war and the herbals are the army. Knowing closely your army is cruical when commanding them. Ji xue teng (millettia root) and dan shen (salvia) can both move the blood and are tonifying. Compared with ji xue teng (millettia root), dan shen (salvia) is more tonifying (but itself is not very tonifying in the first place). In terms of volume, ji xue teng should be used at least 24-30g while dan shen is only halved. As far as the saying of dan seng being equal to the functionality of si wu tang, do not take it too seriously. There are many other sayings going in the herbal. Another popular one is 'chai hu dries up the liver yin'. It is not really the case and again it depends upon how we prescribe. TCM rarely depends or emphasizes upon the medicinal action of one single medicinal when it comes to treatment. Hope that helps. SUNG, Yuk-ming, L Ac & CM P (HK) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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