Guest guest Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 Dr. Sung, You bring up an interesting question... how Chai hu can dredge the liver and aggravate the yin and blood when it is deficient. Sometimes, people who are very yin deficient feel more irritable after taking Xiao yao san. Can we talk about that? K. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:15 AM, sxm2649 <sxm2649 wrote: > Danny, > > Our herbal lecturers always remind us that Chinese medicine doctors > should see themselves as a general in war and the herbals are the > army. > Knowing closely your army is cruical when commanding them. > > Ji xue teng (millettia root) and dan shen (salvia) can both move the > blood and are tonifying. Compared with ji xue teng (millettia root), > dan shen (salvia) is more tonifying (but itself is not very tonifying > in the first place). > > In terms of volume, ji xue teng should be used at least 24-30g while > dan shen is only halved. > > As far as the saying of dan seng being equal to the functionality of > si > wu tang, do not take it too seriously. There are many other sayings > going in the herbal. Another popular one is 'chai hu dries up the > liver > yin'. It is not really the case and again it depends upon how we > prescribe. TCM rarely depends or emphasizes upon the medicinal action > of one single medicinal when it comes to treatment. > > Hope that helps. > > SUNG, Yuk-ming, L Ac & CM P (HK) > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Of course there are different opinions, however some of the greatest doctors (such as Ye tian-shi, Ding gan-ren, and Qin bo-wei) have thought that chai hu plunders the yin. The SHL / JinGui doctors rarely think this because ZZJ used it often. However a large majority of later wen bing doctors felt chai hu was too harsh. I have personally seen it damage yin in my practice many times, so I know it is possible. I do live in a dry climate and this is another consideration. Although, cu chai hu (vinegar fried) still can cause this problem, I find that it can help a bit. Consequently, I only use chai hu when absolutely necessary. - On Behalf Of Tuesday, November 18, 2008 6:35 AM Re: Chai hu for yin xu Dr. Sung, You bring up an interesting question... how Chai hu can dredge the liver and aggravate the yin and blood when it is deficient. Sometimes, people who are very yin deficient feel more irritable after taking Xiao yao san. Can we talk about that? K. On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:15 AM, sxm2649 <sxm2649 <sxm2649%40163.com> > wrote: > wu tang, do not take it too seriously. There are many other sayings > going in the herbal. Another popular one is 'chai hu dries up the > liver > yin'. > > SUNG, Yuk-ming, L Ac & CM P (HK) > > > irus Database: 270.9.6/1797 - Release 11/18/2008 11:23 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 That is interesting. I use chai hu quite frequently in clinic, but I live in a much different climate than you do (maybe Chicago is more like the climate that ZZJ practiced in). I rarely see chai hu cause problems if the pattern warrants it's use. I have also been experimenting with using Dr. Huang's recommendation to use chai hu for people with chai hu body types and for people with chai hu diseases. It seems to be working quite well. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Nov 19, 2008, at 8:17 AM, wrote: > Of course there are different opinions, however some of the > greatest doctors > (such as Ye tian-shi, Ding gan-ren, and Qin bo-wei) have thought > that chai > hu plunders the yin. The SHL / JinGui doctors rarely think this > because ZZJ > used it often. However a large majority of later wen bing doctors > felt chai > hu was too harsh. I have personally seen it damage yin in my > practice many > times, so I know it is possible. I do live in a dry climate and > this is > another consideration. Although, cu chai hu (vinegar fried) still > can cause > this problem, I find that it can help a bit. Consequently, I only > use chai > hu when absolutely necessary. > > - > > > On Behalf Of > Tuesday, November 18, 2008 6:35 AM > > Re: Chai hu for yin xu > > Dr. Sung, > > You bring up an interesting question... > how Chai hu can dredge the liver and aggravate the yin and blood > when it is > deficient. > > Sometimes, people who are very yin deficient feel more irritable after > taking Xiao yao san. > Can we talk about that? > > K. > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:15 AM, sxm2649 <sxm2649 > <sxm2649%40163.com> > wrote: > > > wu tang, do not take it too seriously. There are many other sayings > > going in the herbal. Another popular one is 'chai hu dries up the > > liver > > yin'. > > > SUNG, Yuk-ming, L Ac & CM P (HK) > > > > > > > > irus Database: 270.9.6/1797 - Release 11/18/2008 11:23 AM > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Steve, The problem is (not saying you) many people do not look out for such problems. For example, some people like Andrea, have symptoms almost immediately, but for many, there are no immediate symptoms. It just chisels away at the yin. This is why Qin Bo-Wei rarely used it long-term. As many say, SHL approaches most often are used for short term gains. Long-term approaches usually require a different strategy. It is hard to ignore the words of these great doctors. Especially interesting is that all of them (that I mentioned earlier) lived in a damp climate. -Jason On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:26 AM Re: Re: Chai hu for yin xu That is interesting. I use chai hu quite frequently in clinic, but I live in a much different climate than you do (maybe Chicago is more like the climate that ZZJ practiced in). I rarely see chai hu cause problems if the pattern warrants it's use. I have also been experimenting with using Dr. Huang's recommendation to use chai hu for people with chai hu body types and for people with chai hu diseases. It seems to be working quite well. -Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Doesn't bai shao reverse the trend of chai hu to plunder the yin? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:38 AM, < > wrote: > It just chisels > away at the yin. This is why Qin Bo-Wei rarely used it long-term. As many > say, SHL approaches most often are used for short term gains. Long-term > approaches usually require a different strategy. > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Steve, What chai hu body types and diseases are you talking about? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Wed, 11/19/08, Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak wrote: Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak Re: Re: Chai hu for yin xu Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 8:26 AM That is interesting. I use chai hu quite frequently in clinic, but I live in a much different climate than you do (maybe Chicago is more like the climate that ZZJ practiced in). I rarely see chai hu cause problems if the pattern warrants it's use. I have also been experimenting with using Dr. Huang's recommendation to use chai hu for people with chai hu body types and for people with chai hu diseases. It seems to be working quite well. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Nov 19, 2008, at 8:17 AM, wrote: > Of course there are different opinions, however some of the > greatest doctors > (such as Ye tian-shi, Ding gan-ren, and Qin bo-wei) have thought > that chai > hu plunders the yin. The SHL / JinGui doctors rarely think this > because ZZJ > used it often. However a large majority of later wen bing doctors > felt chai > hu was too harsh. I have personally seen it damage yin in my > practice many > times, so I know it is possible. I do live in a dry climate and > this is > another consideration. Although, cu chai hu (vinegar fried) still > can cause > this problem, I find that it can help a bit. Consequently, I only > use chai > hu when absolutely necessary. > > - > > > On Behalf Of > Tuesday, November 18, 2008 6:35 AM > > Re: Chai hu for yin xu > > Dr. Sung, > > You bring up an interesting question... > how Chai hu can dredge the liver and aggravate the yin and blood > when it is > deficient. > > Sometimes, people who are very yin deficient feel more irritable after > taking Xiao yao san. > Can we talk about that? > > K. > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:15 AM, sxm2649 <sxm2649 > <sxm2649%40163.com> > wrote: > > > wu tang, do not take it too seriously. There are many other sayings > > going in the herbal. Another popular one is 'chai hu dries up the > > liver > > yin'. > > > SUNG, Yuk-ming, L Ac & CM P (HK) > > > > > > > > irus Database: 270.9.6/1797 - Release 11/18/2008 11:23 AM > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Jason- I agree that it is important to look for problems with respect to giving herbal medicinals. All medicinals can cause side-effects. But are you saying that chai hu is more prone to cause damage to yin than other bitter, acrid medicinals? Or that it is more prone to cause side-effects than other medicinals? -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Nov 19, 2008, at 9:38 AM, wrote: > Steve, > > The problem is (not saying you) many people do not look out for such > problems. For example, some people like Andrea, have symptoms almost > immediately, but for many, there are no immediate symptoms. It just > chisels > away at the yin. This is why Qin Bo-Wei rarely used it long-term. > As many > say, SHL approaches most often are used for short term gains. Long- > term > approaches usually require a different strategy. > > It is hard to ignore the words of these great doctors. Especially > interesting is that all of them (that I mentioned earlier) lived in > a damp > climate. > > -Jason > > > On Behalf Of Stephen > Bonzak > Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:26 AM > > Re: Re: Chai hu for yin xu > > That is interesting. I use chai hu quite frequently in clinic, but I > live in a much different climate than you do (maybe Chicago is more > like the climate that ZZJ practiced in). I rarely see chai hu cause > problems if the pattern warrants it's use. I have also been > experimenting with using Dr. Huang's recommendation to use chai hu > for people with chai hu body types and for people with chai hu > diseases. It seems to be working quite well. > > -Steve > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 I use Mei Gui Hua a lot instead of Chai Hu. Especially in raw formulas. I see Mei Gui Hua as being softer and gentler than Chai Hu. Doug , Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak wrote: > > Jason- > > I agree that it is important to look for problems with respect to > giving herbal medicinals. All medicinals can cause side-effects. > But are you saying that chai hu is more prone to cause damage to yin > than other bitter, acrid medicinals? Or that it is more prone to > cause side-effects than other medicinals? > > -Steve > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Of course bai shao somewhat moderates chai hu's plundering, however, in my experience there is still a issue. I am sure that all the doctors that said that it plunders yin knew about bai shao. -Jason On Behalf Of Al Stone Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:51 AM Re: Re: Chai hu for yin xu Doesn't bai shao reverse the trend of chai hu to plunder the yin? On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:38 AM, < <%40Chinese Medicine> > wrote: > It just chisels > away at the yin. This is why Qin Bo-Wei rarely used it long-term. As many > say, SHL approaches most often are used for short term gains. Long-term > approaches usually require a different strategy. > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 It seemed like the Wen Bing docs were very wary of chai hu, and substituted yin chen hao, qing hao, etc. It must have been the climate and nature of diseases at the time. . . I haven't had these issues with chai hu in my own practice, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. Such formulas as xiao chai hu tang tend to be overused, especially in Kampo medicine. On Nov 19, 2008, at 7:59 PM, wrote: > Of course bai shao somewhat moderates chai hu's plundering, however, > in my > experience there is still a issue. I am sure that all the doctors > that said > that it plunders yin knew about bai shao. > > -Jason > > > On Behalf Of Al Stone > Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:51 AM > > Re: Re: Chai hu for yin xu > > Doesn't bai shao reverse the trend of chai hu to plunder the yin? > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:38 AM, < > <%40Chinese Medicine > > > > wrote: > > > It just chisels > > away at the yin. This is why Qin Bo-Wei rarely used it long-term. > As many > > say, SHL approaches most often are used for short term gains. Long- > term > > approaches usually require a different strategy. > > > > -- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Since you mention about the Southern schools, isn't there a southern Chai hu and northern Chai hu... different varieties? How are they different in their actions? Were the Southerners (Wen bing schools) talking about the same Chai hu as the Northerners (Shang han za bing lun schools)? K. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 8:56 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > It seemed like the Wen Bing docs were very wary of chai hu, and > substituted yin chen hao, qing hao, etc. It must have been the > climate and nature of diseases at the time. . . I haven't had these > issues with chai hu in my own practice, but that doesn't mean it isn't > possible. Such formulas as xiao chai hu tang tend to be overused, > especially in Kampo medicine. > > > > On Nov 19, 2008, at 7:59 PM, wrote: > > > Of course bai shao somewhat moderates chai hu's plundering, however, > > in my > > experience there is still a issue. I am sure that all the doctors > > that said > > that it plunders yin knew about bai shao. > > > > -Jason > > > > <%40> > > [ <%40>\ ] > On Behalf Of Al Stone > > Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:51 AM > > <%40> > > Re: Re: Chai hu for yin xu > > > > Doesn't bai shao reverse the trend of chai hu to plunder the yin? > > > > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:38 AM, < > > <%40Chinese Medicine>< > %40Chinese Medicine <%2540Chinese Medicine> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > It just chisels > > > away at the yin. This is why Qin Bo-Wei rarely used it long-term. > > As many > > > say, SHL approaches most often are used for short term gains. Long- > > term > > > approaches usually require a different strategy. > > > > > > > -- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Hi Z'ev and Group, Its funny that you mention the xiao cha hu tang is overused. I was getting the impression that actually this formula is underused here in the West. Flaws mentions this fact, and urges us to make it one of the most used formulas in the clinic. Listen: http://www.bluepoppy.com/podcast/sound/xiao_chai_hu_tang.m3u Just wanted to add a further question to the discussion about the use of Chai hu. Flaws mentions that this formula should be one of the most popular formualas because it addresses the core pathalogy we see in the West which is a Liver-Spleen/Stomach disharmony. I frequently notice thatt in this pathalogy, the liver not only becomes congested and stagnated, but also rises. In that case, is it still wise to use Chai hu, or in fact this formula as a whole? from your experience would you balance the formula by adding some yang downbearning medicinals or replace it with something else? Thanks Guy On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 6:56 AM, <zrosenbewrote: > > possible. Such formulas as xiao chai hu tang tend to be overused, > especially in Kampo medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Steve, You are correct, all medicinals can cause side-effects, just some more than others. However, I do not know what other medicinals you are referring to. In my thinking there are many medicinals that can plunder the yin. However, I guess that chai hu at some point in time was being over used, and that this was a reactionary statement. In my thinking if you see Liver qi stagnation and just reach for chai hu first then it is probably incorrect. There are so many other choices that are better suited to our modern constitutions. I think we should remember that han dynasty people were in general much more burly and the formulas needed to be a bit more forceful. But don't get me wrong, I love chai hu when needed; everything has its place. -Jason On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:38 AM Re: Re: Chai hu for yin xu Jason- I agree that it is important to look for problems with respect to giving herbal medicinals. All medicinals can cause side-effects. But are you saying that chai hu is more prone to cause damage to yin than other bitter, acrid medicinals? Or that it is more prone to cause side-effects than other medicinals? -Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 , < wrote: > > Kokko and all- > > My personal experience with taking chai hu is the following: > > I am not usually an overtly irritable person (tending to be more anxious and slightly depressed), but taking chai hu increases my irritability almost to the point of seething rage, Is this a negative side-effect? Some patients will have this initial reaction when moving Qi, and then will be more calm afterwards (not anxious or depressed). Something causes the long term anxiety and depression and moving it might cause seething. It's hard to say. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Geoff, That's an interesting point. Subhuti Dharmananda wrote an article on the similarities of Chai hu with Coffea arabica (our favorite pick-me-up drink, next to Camellia sinensis) Coffee dredges the liver like Chai hu and can aggravate those with yin/xue xu. It can also kick start your engine and make you feel less stuck. www.itmonline.org K. On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:52 AM, G Hudson <ozark.canuck wrote: > --- In <%40>, > > > < wrote: > > > > Kokko and all- > > > > My personal experience with taking chai hu is the following: > > > > I am not usually an overtly irritable person (tending to be more > anxious and slightly depressed), but taking chai hu increases my > irritability almost to the point of seething rage, > > Is this a negative side-effect? Some patients will have this initial > reaction when moving Qi, and then will be more calm afterwards (not > anxious or depressed). Something causes the long term anxiety and > depression and moving it might cause seething. It's hard to say. > > Geoff > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 I mentioned to one of my TCM professors at school (PH.D Neurology) Flaws take that xiao chai hu tang could be used for many, many diseases not based on SHL channel theory but by an analysis of the herbs it contains. He says this is true and that the formula has been researched and used quite extensively in China. Melissa , " Guy Sedan " <guysedan wrote: > > Hi Z'ev and Group, > Its funny that you mention the xiao cha hu tang is overused. I was getting > the impression that actually this formula is underused here in the West. > Flaws mentions this fact, and urges us to make it one of the most used > formulas in the clinic. Listen: > http://www.bluepoppy.com/podcast/sound/xiao_chai_hu_tang.m3u > > Just wanted to add a further question to the discussion about the use of > Chai hu. Flaws mentions that this formula should be one of the most popular > formualas because it addresses the core pathalogy we see in the West which > is a Liver-Spleen/Stomach disharmony. I frequently notice thatt in this > pathalogy, the liver not only becomes congested and stagnated, but also > rises. In that case, is it still wise to use Chai hu, or in fact this > formula as a whole? from your experience would you balance the formula by > adding some yang downbearning medicinals or replace it with something else? > > > Thanks > Guy > > > > On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 6:56 AM, <zrosenbewrote: > > > > > possible. Such formulas as xiao chai hu tang tend to be overused, > > especially in Kampo medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.