Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Dear Dr. Ray, Though we have never met, I have enjoyed reading your comments over the years, and unfortunately just missed having the opportunity of learning from you at Dongguk Royal University. I started there in the summer of 2000, and I believe you left shortly before then. My senior colleagues there spoke very highly of you as being rigorous and passionate. Your mention of the formula Yi Gan San and its applications brings to mind a question that I have had over the years concerning it. It is generally a pediatric formula, and as such the dosages are quite small. But though, in the literature there is much written about how its applications have expanded to treat adult shen disorders as well, nothing is written about dosages when decocting. My assumption would be that they would be tripled for an adult of moderate build, but I wonder if this is addressed, in this and perhaps other pediatric formulas used in adult applications. All the best, --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Ray Rubio <RTOO wrote: Ray Rubio <RTOO Re: sleep bruxism Thursday, December 11, 2008, 9:29 AM Jason - I don't have any articles on this subject, and I know that it's generally not kosher to suggest a formula for a western disease/ condition, but my teacher Dr. Shen was a fan of a standard formula called Yi Gan San for the treatment of sleep bruxism/teeth grinding/ TMJ. Yi Gan San is traditionally used to course and soothe the Liver, settle spasms, and quiet the spirit, and there is a good discussion of it in Andy Ellis' book, " Notes from South Mountain " . I found this formula to also be clinically superior for patients that have problems winding down and falling asleep at night (what I call " monkey mind " ) - and of course many of these " types " coincidentally also grind their teeth at night, and complain of TMJ-related neck and shoulder tension and headaches. Another terrific thing about this Rx. is that it can be prescribed in one dose just before bed, i.e. 2-4 caps 30 minutes before bed, and the patient will have a good night's sleep, and over the course of several days to weeks, the teeth grinding and TMJ symptoms typically subside. I know that most TCM Practitioners will cringe at this comparison, but the way this formula works reminds me of Xanax, without the habit- forming/addictive side effects. For example, I also have given this Rx (same dose as above) to patients who are afraid of flying, and it helps to alleviate their anxiety, and help them sleep on the plane without sedatives. Hope this helps somewhat, Ray Rubio, DAOM (FABORM) On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:09 AM, wrote: > Currently I have a few stubborn cases of sleep bruxism / teeth > grinding. I > was wondering if anyone has any good articles / discussions on this > topic in > either Chinese or English. Thanks, > > -Jason > > > > > <http://maps. / py/maps.py? Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+ 30th+Street% 2C+Suite+ 20 > 0 & csz=Boulder% 2C+Co & country= us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > <http://www.plaxo. com/signature? src=client_ sig_212_1_ simple_sig & lang=en > > > Want a signature like this? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Hi Yehuda - (and please just call me Ray) I too, am sorry to have missed crossing paths with you at DRU. From your posts here, you seem like a very sincere practitioner of this medicine. You know, regarding the adult Dose of Yi Gan San, I can only tell you my experience - and that is that I have only ever used this Formula in prepared form - i.e. I have never decocted it. I use the one from Herbal Science International/Jen-On, and I use the dose that I mentioned previously - 2-4 caps (each cap is 500 mgs) just before bed or before a flight. Also, despite its' original pediatric indications, I have used it primarily with adults, for the indications/conditions I noted to Jason. At the dose mentioned above (1-2 grams), just before bed, this Formula works like a charm most of the time, and the patient doesn't have to take it during the day. One word of caution: when one looks at the dosages/proportions of herbal ingredients in this Rx, it seems so simple that one could be fooled into underestimating its' effects. When I give this to adults for Bruxism/TMJ/Insomnia, I typically start them at 2 caps, and go up from there after I see how they respond. I have seen 200 LB/91 Kilo men wake up a little groggy the next morning after only taking 2 caps of this formula before bed. Incidentally, the two times that I have used this with kids, it was my own little ones when they were having night terrors. They were 1 1/2 years old at the time, and I gave them half a capsule. Worked great. Ray. On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:24 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Dr. Ray, > > Though we have never met, I have enjoyed reading your comments over > the years, and unfortunately just missed having the opportunity of > learning from you at Dongguk Royal University. I started there in > the summer of 2000, and I believe you left shortly before then. My > senior colleagues there spoke very highly of you as being rigorous > and passionate. > > Your mention of the formula Yi Gan San and its applications brings > to mind a question that I have had over the years concerning it. It > is generally a pediatric formula, and as such the dosages are quite > small. But though, in the literature there is much written about > how its applications have expanded to treat adult shen disorders as > well, nothing is written about dosages when decocting. My > assumption would be that they would be tripled for an adult of > moderate build, but I wonder if this is addressed, in this and > perhaps other pediatric formulas used in adult applications. > > All the best, > > > > > > --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Ray Rubio <RTOO wrote: > > Ray Rubio <RTOO > Re: sleep bruxism > > Thursday, December 11, 2008, 9:29 AM > > Jason - > > I don't have any articles on this subject, and I know that it's > generally not kosher to suggest a formula for a western disease/ > condition, but my teacher Dr. Shen was a fan of a standard formula > called Yi Gan San for the treatment of sleep bruxism/teeth grinding/ > TMJ. Yi Gan San is traditionally used to course and soothe the Liver, > settle spasms, and quiet the spirit, and there is a good discussion of > it in Andy Ellis' book, " Notes from South Mountain " . > > I found this formula to also be clinically superior for patients that > have problems winding down and falling asleep at night (what I call > " monkey mind " ) - and of course many of these " types " coincidentally > also grind their teeth at night, and complain of TMJ-related neck and > shoulder tension and headaches. > > Another terrific thing about this Rx. is that it can be prescribed in > one dose just before bed, i.e. 2-4 caps 30 minutes before bed, and the > patient will have a good night's sleep, and over the course of several > days to weeks, the teeth grinding and TMJ symptoms typically subside. > > I know that most TCM Practitioners will cringe at this comparison, but > the way this formula works reminds me of Xanax, without the habit- > forming/addictive side effects. For example, I also have given this Rx > (same dose as above) to patients who are afraid of flying, and it > helps to alleviate their anxiety, and help them sleep on the plane > without sedatives. > > Hope this helps somewhat, > > Ray Rubio, DAOM (FABORM) > > On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:09 AM, wrote: > > > Currently I have a few stubborn cases of sleep bruxism / teeth > > grinding. I > > was wondering if anyone has any good articles / discussions on this > > topic in > > either Chinese or English. Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps. / py/maps.py? Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+ 30th > +Street% 2C+Suite+ 20 > > 0 & csz=Boulder% 2C+Co & country= us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo. com/signature? src=client_ sig_212_1_ > simple_sig & lang=en > > > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Thanks Ray, Can you give me a link to their website? I am not familiar with Jen-on, --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Ray Rubio <RTOO wrote: Ray Rubio <RTOO Re: Yi Gan San dosages Thursday, December 11, 2008, 12:09 PM Hi Yehuda - (and please just call me Ray) I too, am sorry to have missed crossing paths with you at DRU. From your posts here, you seem like a very sincere practitioner of this medicine. You know, regarding the adult Dose of Yi Gan San, I can only tell you my experience - and that is that I have only ever used this Formula in prepared form - i.e. I have never decocted it. I use the one from Herbal Science International/ Jen-On, and I use the dose that I mentioned previously - 2-4 caps (each cap is 500 mgs) just before bed or before a flight. Also, despite its' original pediatric indications, I have used it primarily with adults, for the indications/ conditions I noted to Jason. At the dose mentioned above (1-2 grams), just before bed, this Formula works like a charm most of the time, and the patient doesn't have to take it during the day. One word of caution: when one looks at the dosages/proportions of herbal ingredients in this Rx, it seems so simple that one could be fooled into underestimating its' effects. When I give this to adults for Bruxism/TMJ/ Insomnia, I typically start them at 2 caps, and go up from there after I see how they respond. I have seen 200 LB/91 Kilo men wake up a little groggy the next morning after only taking 2 caps of this formula before bed. Incidentally, the two times that I have used this with kids, it was my own little ones when they were having night terrors. They were 1 1/2 years old at the time, and I gave them half a capsule. Worked great. Ray. On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:24 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Dr. Ray, > > Though we have never met, I have enjoyed reading your comments over > the years, and unfortunately just missed having the opportunity of > learning from you at Dongguk Royal University. I started there in > the summer of 2000, and I believe you left shortly before then. My > senior colleagues there spoke very highly of you as being rigorous > and passionate. > > Your mention of the formula Yi Gan San and its applications brings > to mind a question that I have had over the years concerning it. It > is generally a pediatric formula, and as such the dosages are quite > small. But though, in the literature there is much written about > how its applications have expanded to treat adult shen disorders as > well, nothing is written about dosages when decocting. My > assumption would be that they would be tripled for an adult of > moderate build, but I wonder if this is addressed, in this and > perhaps other pediatric formulas used in adult applications. > > All the best, > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Ray Rubio <RTOO (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: > > Ray Rubio <RTOO (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> > Re: sleep bruxism > > Thursday, December 11, 2008, 9:29 AM > > Jason - > > I don't have any articles on this subject, and I know that it's > generally not kosher to suggest a formula for a western disease/ > condition, but my teacher Dr. Shen was a fan of a standard formula > called Yi Gan San for the treatment of sleep bruxism/teeth grinding/ > TMJ. Yi Gan San is traditionally used to course and soothe the Liver, > settle spasms, and quiet the spirit, and there is a good discussion of > it in Andy Ellis' book, " Notes from South Mountain " . > > I found this formula to also be clinically superior for patients that > have problems winding down and falling asleep at night (what I call > " monkey mind " ) - and of course many of these " types " coincidentally > also grind their teeth at night, and complain of TMJ-related neck and > shoulder tension and headaches. > > Another terrific thing about this Rx. is that it can be prescribed in > one dose just before bed, i.e. 2-4 caps 30 minutes before bed, and the > patient will have a good night's sleep, and over the course of several > days to weeks, the teeth grinding and TMJ symptoms typically subside. > > I know that most TCM Practitioners will cringe at this comparison, but > the way this formula works reminds me of Xanax, without the habit- > forming/addictive side effects. For example, I also have given this Rx > (same dose as above) to patients who are afraid of flying, and it > helps to alleviate their anxiety, and help them sleep on the plane > without sedatives. > > Hope this helps somewhat, > > Ray Rubio, DAOM (FABORM) > > On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:09 AM, wrote: > > > Currently I have a few stubborn cases of sleep bruxism / teeth > > grinding. I > > was wondering if anyone has any good articles / discussions on this > > topic in > > either Chinese or English. Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps. / py/maps.py? Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+ 30th > +Street% 2C+Suite+ 20 > > 0 & csz=Boulder% 2C+Co & country= us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo. com/signature? src=client_ sig_212_1_ > simple_sig & lang=en > > > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I don't know if they have a website. Try just googling them... Ray On Dec 11, 2008, at 1:49 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Thanks Ray, > > Can you give me a link to their website? I am not familiar with Jen- > on, > > > > > > --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Ray Rubio <RTOO wrote: > > Ray Rubio <RTOO > Re: Yi Gan San dosages > > Thursday, December 11, 2008, 12:09 PM > > Hi Yehuda - (and please just call me Ray) > > I too, am sorry to have missed crossing paths with you at DRU. From > your posts here, you seem like a very sincere practitioner of this > medicine. > > You know, regarding the adult Dose of Yi Gan San, I can only tell you > my experience - and that is that I have only ever used this Formula in > prepared form - i.e. I have never decocted it. I use the one from > Herbal Science International/ Jen-On, and I use the dose that I > mentioned previously - 2-4 caps (each cap is 500 mgs) just before bed > or before a flight. Also, despite its' original pediatric indications, > I have used it primarily with adults, for the indications/ > conditions I > noted to Jason. > > At the dose mentioned above (1-2 grams), just before bed, this Formula > works like a charm most of the time, and the patient doesn't have to > take it during the day. One word of caution: when one looks at the > dosages/proportions of herbal ingredients in this Rx, it seems so > simple that one could be fooled into underestimating its' effects. > When I give this to adults for Bruxism/TMJ/ Insomnia, I typically > start > them at 2 caps, and go up from there after I see how they respond. I > have seen 200 LB/91 Kilo men wake up a little groggy the next morning > after only taking 2 caps of this formula before bed. > > Incidentally, the two times that I have used this with kids, it was my > own little ones when they were having night terrors. They were 1 1/2 > years old at the time, and I gave them half a capsule. Worked great. > > Ray. > On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:24 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Dear Dr. Ray, > > > > Though we have never met, I have enjoyed reading your comments over > > the years, and unfortunately just missed having the opportunity of > > learning from you at Dongguk Royal University. I started there in > > the summer of 2000, and I believe you left shortly before then. My > > senior colleagues there spoke very highly of you as being rigorous > > and passionate. > > > > Your mention of the formula Yi Gan San and its applications brings > > to mind a question that I have had over the years concerning it. It > > is generally a pediatric formula, and as such the dosages are quite > > small. But though, in the literature there is much written about > > how its applications have expanded to treat adult shen disorders as > > well, nothing is written about dosages when decocting. My > > assumption would be that they would be tripled for an adult of > > moderate build, but I wonder if this is addressed, in this and > > perhaps other pediatric formulas used in adult applications. > > > > All the best, > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > > > > > --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Ray Rubio <RTOO (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > Ray Rubio <RTOO (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> > > Re: sleep bruxism > > > > Thursday, December 11, 2008, 9:29 AM > > > > Jason - > > > > I don't have any articles on this subject, and I know that it's > > generally not kosher to suggest a formula for a western disease/ > > condition, but my teacher Dr. Shen was a fan of a standard formula > > called Yi Gan San for the treatment of sleep bruxism/teeth grinding/ > > TMJ. Yi Gan San is traditionally used to course and soothe the > Liver, > > settle spasms, and quiet the spirit, and there is a good > discussion of > > it in Andy Ellis' book, " Notes from South Mountain " . > > > > I found this formula to also be clinically superior for patients > that > > have problems winding down and falling asleep at night (what I call > > " monkey mind " ) - and of course many of these " types " coincidentally > > also grind their teeth at night, and complain of TMJ-related neck > and > > shoulder tension and headaches. > > > > Another terrific thing about this Rx. is that it can be prescribed > in > > one dose just before bed, i.e. 2-4 caps 30 minutes before bed, and > the > > patient will have a good night's sleep, and over the course of > several > > days to weeks, the teeth grinding and TMJ symptoms typically > subside. > > > > I know that most TCM Practitioners will cringe at this comparison, > but > > the way this formula works reminds me of Xanax, without the habit- > > forming/addictive side effects. For example, I also have given > this Rx > > (same dose as above) to patients who are afraid of flying, and it > > helps to alleviate their anxiety, and help them sleep on the plane > > without sedatives. > > > > Hope this helps somewhat, > > > > Ray Rubio, DAOM (FABORM) > > > > On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:09 AM, wrote: > > > > > Currently I have a few stubborn cases of sleep bruxism / teeth > > > grinding. I > > > was wondering if anyone has any good articles / discussions on > this > > > topic in > > > either Chinese or English. Thanks, > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps. / py/maps.py? Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+ 30th > > +Street% 2C+Suite+ 20 > > > 0 & csz=Boulder% 2C+Co & country= us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > > Boulder, Co > > > 80301 > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo. com/signature? src=client_ sig_212_1_ > > simple_sig & lang=en > > > > > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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