Re:herb source in Beijing? and Western herbs book

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Thomas. Does one buy from a Tong Ren Tang pharmacy to ensure

you are not getting a counterfeit bottled formula?

 

Do you have any idea how the quality of Tong Ren Tang herbs compares

to the quality of bottled formulas available in the U.S.? I'm trying

to determine if a visit to Beijing offers an opportunity for

obtaining good herbs at lower prices. (A client of mine is going.) I

realize this topic is complex so I'm really only requesting your

basic assessment or impressions.

 

By the way, I have your excellent book Western Herbs According to

TCM. It is certainly a significant contribution to the cross-

pollination of East and West herbalism. Thank you!

 

Marian

 

,

wrote:

>

> I don't know of any " organic " herbs here, I think they are mostly

exported. Tong Ren Tang åŒä»å ‚ is the best quality we can get

here, at least as far as I know.

>  

> Thomas

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional :

A Practitioners Guide

> Check out my blog: www.sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Marian Blum, L.Ac., DNBAO "

<chinesemed wrote:

> Do you have any idea how the quality of Tong Ren Tang herbs compares

> to the quality of bottled formulas available in the U.S.? I'm trying

> to determine if a visit to Beijing offers an opportunity for

> obtaining good herbs at lower prices.

 

Tong Ren Tang's prepared pills are generally pretty mediocre in my

opinion. Certainly no better than Plum Flower, and not that much

cheaper in Beijing to make it worthwhile to carry back a suitcase

full. They have a few good things that we don't get here, such as

large honey pills (da shan zha wan is a really good one that they make).

 

As far as prepared herbs go, Tong Ren Tang's most famous product is

without question it's An Gong Niu Huang Wan. In fact, TRT's product

is pretty much the only authentic An Gong Niu Huang Wan on the market.

People go there to buy it for emergencies, but at nearly $50/pill it

might not be something you stock up on.

 

Tong Ren Tang also makes some OTC granule mixes and small pills. They

have a few useful niu huang based heat clearing formulas that you

can't easily buy in the US, but otherwise it isn't too exceptional.

Most of their formulas are modern recipes vs. classical formulas. I

think a lot of their products are also available in the US from an

importer in Oakland (?).

 

To me, there isn't anything exceptional enough at TRT to justify

stuffing into a suitcase, except for maybe some ginseng souvenirs.

That and maybe a few rare items like natural niu huang that are

expensive, easily counterfeited, and hard to find in an authentic form

outside of a place like Tong Ren Tang. Still, you need to have use

for something that costs a thousand bucks or more per ounce. This is

where Tong Ren Tang's strength lies- if you don't know enough or have

the right connections to buy authentic high-end stuff, they do have

authentic specimens for you, but the price is high. For normal stuff,

the quality is only average.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Marian,

 

I would read Eric's post carefully, he knows a lot more about the

industry than I do. However, I was talking about bulk herbs, not

products. That said, there is a pharmacy close to my apartment that

has the best quality herbs I have seen...it is not TRT....but TRT is

generally considered the best...at least the most famous.

 

Thanks for your compliments on my book. I hope it offers you a lot of

insight into using those and other plants from outside the standard

Chinese materia medica within the paradigm of Chinese medicine. I have

a second volume started, but it is still a while before you will see

it. For those interested check out my blog, I will periodically

include information about using Western herbs in Chinese

medicine....some of this will be information that is included in the

book mentioned with discussion and some will be information not yet

public. If I see a lot of interested persons reading, I will write

about that topic more frequently, but essentially it is a

salt-n-pepper blog of " what's on my mind. " Enjoy!

 

Thomas

 

Beijing, China

Author of Western Herbs According to Traditional :

A Practitioners Guide

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> I would read Eric's post carefully, he knows a lot more about the

> industry than I do. However, I was talking about bulk herbs, not

> products. That said, there is a pharmacy close to my apartment that

> has the best quality herbs I have seen...it is not TRT....but TRT is

> generally considered the best...at least the most famous.

 

Well, I don't really know Beijing all that well, having only lived

there for a few months. It would be great if you can post the name

and address of the shop near your house, because there are probably

many people on the list that will periodically find themselves in

Beijing needing to buy raw herbs. Most pharmacies can cook the herbs

for you in a small extractor so a good raw herb pharmacy will be able

to provide a traveler with portable and convenient medicine. Michael

Fitzgerald or Michael Max may also be lurking on the list somewhere,

and they may know of some good pharmacies as well. Could also try

asking students at the TCM universities in Dong Zhi Men to get some

tips on good Beijing pharmacies.

 

When I was living in Beijing, I remember that my friend got a common

raw herbal formula filled at Tong Ren Tang; the herbs were quite

disappointing, about two grades below anything that you'd get from

Spring Wind or Mayway. And while Carl's story about the TRT tourist

scam doesn't surprise me in the least, honestly avoiding such tourist

scams has as much to do with being streetwise in China as it has to do

with TRT.

 

The individual TRT branches vary widely in their selection and

quality. TRT branches exist in airports, shopping malls, and all

manner of places that market primarily to tourists and average people

that know nothing about Chinese medicine. I've seen quite a few wild

ginseng specimens in TRT branches that I would question in terms of

their authenticity, and virtually nothing behind the fancy ginseng and

antler counters is worth the price that they are charging.

 

While I wouldn't personally buy something like ginseng or velvet

antler at Tong Ren Tang, I think of the place as more of a museum

rather than a market where you really want to buy stuff. That said, I

have met some really knowledgeable people at TRT branches, especially

the branch in Taipei. I remember picking up some unique wild ju hua

buds there that I've never seen elsewhere, they were quite exceptional

and not expensive. And if you need some random cheap prepared

product, TRT is about as good as any other average choice.

 

I am probably a bit biased because I don't personally buy stuff like

ginseng at the retail level in China. I'm used to buying ginseng at

the top of the wholesale tier in China, so to me Tong Ren Tang just

seems like a sucker trap to sell overpriced stuff to tourists. But

one can honestly learn a lot by checking out their specimens and

asking their staff.

 

The key is to not show up on a tour group, but instead go find the

main person for a particular product and ask them a specific, advanced

question about the product you are interested in (in Chinese,

obviously). Once they realize that your question is a serious inquiry

by an educated colleague, they will often be quite happy to share

their knowledge. The best TRT experience I had came from asking the

salesperson a question about ginseng that she didn't know the answer

to, and she went upstairs to the office to get the ginseng expert. He

came down and gave us an hour-long private lecture on how to assess

authenticity in wild ginseng, and he was incredibly knowledgeable

about the subject.

 

Sophisticated experts and sucker traps both exist in abundance in

China (sometimes even in the same shop), seek out the former and

ignore the latter.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

When I was around Beijing TCM University, I visited TRT around the school.

I was very disappointed how unfriendly the TRT staffs.

I had much better experience to visit KPC and SunTen factories in Taiwan.

 

 

Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA

Johns Hopkins Community Physicians

Wyman Park Internal Medicine

Phone 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413

 

Canton Crossing Integrative Medicine

410-522-9940

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I agree, Eric. I didn't mean to say that TRT is evil, just that

they run an evil trourist trap in Wangfujing. Funny thing, on the 1st

floor of that building they had a normal TRT pharmacy. After the scam

we spent a few minutes shopping there and quite a few students bought

pills, creams, and powders for various things. It was a lot of fun. If

the TRT staff had just given us a nice tour and helped us pick out

normal products, I bet people would have bought a lot of stuff, and

left with a good impression.

 

Despite my bad experience, I usually bought TRT pills when I could,

because of their reputation. You don't have to go to a TRT pharmacy to

get their stuff. Pretty much any pharmacy will carry a lot of their

products. There were probably 5 or 6 stores in my neighborhood where I

could shop. In general, I agree w/ Eric's assessment of their products

as being " average " . I used some of the digestive formulas a lot and

they worked fine. It was also just fun to be able to buy and try

formulas for so cheap.