Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Hi Group, I'm wondering if there is any issue in making tinctures from Evergreen powders. Do their preperation methods or binders become a propblem when trying to make tinctures? Thanks for any help you can offer. Happy New Year. Dave Vitello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 It's a huge waste of money. You would be adding alcohol to an extract that is already finished. Also, the dried extract will have excipients that will affect the consistency of the tincture. Instead of paying 10 dollars for a 100 gram bottle of powder extract and mixing it with alcohol, you can get a pound of ground herbs for the same price. Then make the tincture. - Bill , " dmvitello01 " <dmvitello wrote: > > Hi Group, > > I'm wondering if there is any issue in making tinctures from Evergreen > powders. Do their preperation methods or binders become a propblem when > trying to make tinctures? > > Thanks for any help you can offer. > > Happy New Year. > > Dave Vitello > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 I would be interested in a bit more explanation since a 100g of powder extract should be roughly equivalent to 450 to 500 g of raw herbs. So if it is roughly equivalent and the powder extracts have been cleaned, inspected etc.during the manufacturing process it seems like there might be an advantage to using the powders to make a tincture as long as the added fillers of potato starch or corn starch do not make the tincture less stable. I have no firm opinions on this but I do have an interest in the possiblities, particularly after the past several years of unending stories of contamination in Chinese products plus raw herbs being susceptible to molds, heavy metal contamination etc. -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 If the raw herbs are contaminated by heavy metals, then the concentrated powders or granules will be too. Depending on which company and which herb we're talking about, the concentration ratio can range from 1:1 to greater than 10:1. Some herbal compounds are more alcohol or water soluble than others... To be sure, one should contact their company and make sure.... sometimes we just assume that it's 5:1. KW Botanicals does a good job in extracting the highest yield of these chemical compounds with both water and alcohol extraction methods. http://www.kwbotanicals.com/ On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Duncan E <willhealu wrote: > I would be interested in a bit more explanation since a 100g of > powder extract should be roughly equivalent to 450 to 500 g of raw > herbs. > > So if it is roughly equivalent and the powder extracts have been > cleaned, inspected etc.during the manufacturing process it seems like > there might be an advantage to using the powders to make a tincture as > long as the added fillers of potato starch or corn starch do not make > the tincture less stable. > > I have no firm opinions on this but I do have an interest in the > possiblities, particularly after the past several years of unending > stories of contamination in Chinese products plus raw herbs being > susceptible to molds, heavy metal contamination etc. > > -- > Duncan E > > " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " > -Mark Vonnegut > > -- www.tcmreview.com The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 , " " <johnkokko wrote: > > If the raw herbs are contaminated by heavy metals, then the concentrated > powders or granules will be too. Not true. Raw herbs and granules have totally different regulations and dramatically different standards of quality control. Granule manufacturers test their raw materials and finished products for things like heavy metals, most of the raw herbs on the general market have not been subjected to an equal level of scrutiny. Raw herbs are generally loosely regulated, quality assessment depends on practitioner knowledge of indentification and quality discernment. Granule producers often commission entire lots direct from the farms, their large scale buying powder gives them more control over the raw materials. Loose herbs are mixed together from different producers, and then graded based on traditional quality assessment parameters, there is much more variety and much less regulation. > KW Botanicals does a good job in extracting the highest yield of these > chemical compounds > with both water and alcohol extraction methods. The thing is, the historical use of most Chinese herbs is based on water extraction, not alcohol extraction. Using chemical solvents and alcohol introduces a new variable into Chinese medicine, some products may have greater efficacy but some may have unwanted or even dangerous effects when different solvents are used. People have been experimenting with the water soluble chemicals found in these herbs for thousands of years, but all that experience is no longer a viable foundation if we start using the hexane or alcohol soluble fractions instead of the water soluble constituents alone. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Here is a link to the Evergreen page that addresses issues of authenticity, potency, purity and safety: http://www.evherb.com/Quality/truth.htm Here is a link to the Golden Flower Herbs page on the KPC(KC) manufacturing process: http://www.gfcherbs.com/about/manufacturing.php I chose the gfc page since it was more detailed that the English KPC website page and gfc has their products produced by KPC. I have never heard of anyone questioning Evergreen's or KPC's manufacturing process except for some concern with Evergreen's use of corn starch instead of potato starch as a filler. I have been to a number of John Chen lectures at various symposiums and found his presentations to be well organized and informative and his books on single herbs and formulas well research and his clinical manual of great use. And I am under the impression that Andy Ellis is a man of integrity and knowledge and use his Notes from South Mountain book regularly. Concerning Eric's concern about the use of alcohol extraction, I am personally interested in exploring this in clinical practice and work under the assumption that in most instances the formulas will work basically the same. This demands that I be constantly aware that there are likely to be some differences at times but that is even true when I work purely with water decocted raw formulas since the potency of raw herbs can vary widely. Seem like tinctured powdered herbs might be an interesting approach since the extraction process has already been done and the alcohol acts more as a preservative that as an extracting agent. This is not to deny that in some instances the alcohol may create significant changes, and therefore a modicum of caution and awareness is needed at all times. Does anyone have any practical experience or research information where alcohol extraction or alcohol use as a preservative has seriously altered an herb or formula's function? -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Eric, 2 things... We're saying the same thing... the concentrated powders/granules manufacturers must have clean raw materials (loose herbs) in order to make pure granules. The egg must come from the chicken and vice versa. I'm not saying that they're tested with the same standards. There is so much diversity out there in herbal companies and very few companies that actually test and have lab reports as well. Lab tests for each batch of herbs are very expensive, so only the bigger companies usually provide these. Second thing is that some herbs like Ren shen, Dang gui, Wu jia pi and other tonics have a long tradition of wine extraction... In China town, there are shelves of these tonics... Of course, you've got to know what you're doing and the ancients are probably more knowledgeable about these things than modern scientists. K. On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: > --- In <%40>, > " " > <johnkokko wrote: > > > > If the raw herbs are contaminated by heavy metals, then the > concentrated > > powders or granules will be too. > > Not true. Raw herbs and granules have totally different regulations > and dramatically different standards of quality control. Granule > manufacturers test their raw materials and finished products for > things like heavy metals, most of the raw herbs on the general market > have not been subjected to an equal level of scrutiny. Raw herbs are > generally loosely regulated, quality assessment depends on > practitioner knowledge of indentification and quality discernment. > Granule producers often commission entire lots direct from the farms, > their large scale buying powder gives them more control over the raw > materials. Loose herbs are mixed together from different producers, > and then graded based on traditional quality assessment parameters, > there is much more variety and much less regulation. > > > KW Botanicals does a good job in extracting the highest yield of > these > > chemical compounds > > with both water and alcohol extraction methods. > > The thing is, the historical use of most Chinese herbs is based on > water extraction, not alcohol extraction. Using chemical solvents > and alcohol introduces a new variable into Chinese medicine, some > products may have greater efficacy but some may have unwanted or even > dangerous effects when different solvents are used. People have been > experimenting with the water soluble chemicals found in these herbs > for thousands of years, but all that experience is no longer a viable > foundation if we start using the hexane or alcohol soluble fractions > instead of the water soluble constituents alone. > > Eric Brand > > > -- www.tcmreview.com The Four Reliances: Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the teaching. As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words alone, but rely upon the meaning that underlies them. Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the provisional meaning alone, but rely upon the definitive meaning. And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely upon ordinary consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 , " " <johnkokko wrote: > > Eric, > > There is so much diversity out there in herbal companies and very few > companies that actually test and have lab reports as well. > Lab tests for each batch of herbs are very expensive, so only the bigger > companies usually provide these. For sure, the finished product can only be as clean as the raw materials. However, all GMP granule producers do lab tests on each batch of product. Granules in Taiwan and China are regulated under pharmaceutical laws, so they must meet far more stringent legal requirements than products manufactured in the US as dietary supplements. This is not to say that the system can completely prevent abuse, but the official system definitely requires lab testing of every batch (heavy metals, microbiology, pesticide residues). > Second thing is that some herbs like Ren shen, Dang gui, Wu jia pi and other > tonics have a long tradition of wine extraction... Yes, of course. This is why I said that only some Chinese herbs have a history of using alcohol extraction. Tonics and medicinals used to treat wind-damp impediment (bi syndrome) are often used in medicinal wines, and there are classical formulas that use wine in the decoction process. However, many herbs have virtually no history of traditional use as an alcohol extract, such as heat-clearing formulas like yin qiao san. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > Concerning Eric's concern about the use of alcohol extraction, I am > personally interested in exploring this in clinical practice and work > under the assumption that in most instances the formulas will work > basically the same. Actually, I have no concerns with the process that you are describing. You are starting out with a water extract, the granule company has already made a decoction, which gives you the full spectrum of water soluble constituents without any non-water soluble constituents. In other words, because you are starting with granules, you don't have the variable of using a different solvent on the raw herbs. As you mentioned, you are just using alcohol to stabilize the solution. The one caveat is that alcohol and glycerin each have a strong flavor and alcohol has its own medicinal action in Chinese medicine. Purists might suggest that using glycerin as a preservative in a bitter formula may overwhelm the bitterness with sweetness, or the warmth of the alcohol may make something like yin qiao san less cooling. However, I personally think that there has been enough use of such forms to suggest that they are still effective, and I'm not personally enough of a purist to advocate against the method that you are proposing. You also mentioned quality control of Evergreen and KPC's products. They both have excellent quality control, I've visited their factories, I've seen their COAs, definitely no problems with identity, safety, etc. As you mentioned, the people involved are trustworthy experts, such as John Chen, Tina Chen, Andy Ellis, as well as the experts they work with in Taiwan. You mention corn starch as an excipient vs. potato starch, to this I would point out that both forms are actually pharmaceutical starch not simple starch. This means that the proteins are removed so there should be no allergic potential in either product, in fact their respective starches should be identical upon analysis. I'd be interested to hear about the method that you are using to turn a granule into a liquid concentrate. I've done this a bit myself on a home experiment level. I've had much better results with the Chinese granules than the Taiwanese granules because they seem to dissolve more completely and there is less starch residue (making the final product less grainy). Also, it is easier to calculate the 1g/ml potency that I aim for with the Chinese granules because the extraction ratio is more consistent. That said, I am biased because I have a company that sells the mainland Chinese granules, so you should base your opinion on your own testing experiments rather than blindly accepting my perspective as fact. I would love to know how you do it. I basically take 200g of 5:1 granules per liter. I dissolve the granules in about 400 ml of boiled water, then mix in about 400 ml of vodka and 80 ml of glycerin to stabilize it. Takes about 5 minutes of prep and shaking, produces about a liter of 1g crude drug per ml of final product, roughly equivalent to the other commercial producers but about 1/10 the price. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: > This is not to say that the system can completely > prevent abuse, but the official system definitely requires lab testing > of every batch (heavy metals, microbiology, pesticide residues). > Eric, do you know of any problems with the extract manufacturers? Obviously we here a lot of stories about tainted products, have there been recalls or problems with extract powders from either Taiwan or PRC? -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 My approach is quite experimental and I make no pretense to having final answers. I have been making tinctures for 5 years and have made many changes along the way and expect even more changes to come. Any conclusions I have at this time are largely based on my interpretation of my clinical results. Because I had a number of powdered herbs available, I decided to try tincturing some of them. I reasoned that since the powders were a water extraction that I could simply mix the powder with a mix of 1/3 grain alcohol and 2/3 distilled water. The literature on tincturing usually places the range for alcohol as a stabilizer at 25 to 35% and since I don't want spoiled product I go for 33%. Then I do the fairly standard tincturing process of shaking the powders and menstrum daily for at least 14 days and frequently up to 21 or 30 days. At first I harvested the products by pressing the mixture in a fine cloth with a mechanical press but soon discovered the results so muddy that now I finish by simply decanting the liquid portion and composting the residue at the bottom. Since I am a single practitioner, I typically produce 500 ml at a time and at times as small as 250ml for something rarely needed. And interesting question is how many grams of powder to use: the literature says that the powder extract is usually 5 to 1, implying that a gram of powder is roughly equivalent to 4 to 5 grams of raw herbs. I have made some formulas with 100 g of powder per 500ml (equivalent to your 200g per liter) and I have made the same formulas with 50 g of powder per 500ml. Clinically, so far I cannot tell a difference in efficacy between the two potencies at this time. The question of potency is extremely interesting since the sensitivity of patients varies so radically (the homeopaths claim a 1000 fold and the biochemist out of the Roger Williams tradition claim much the same- there are no average patients) When I prescribe the tinctures I give the patient a wide range of doses and encourage them to start with the low end and work their way up to the dose that works for them. Since the cost of producing the tinctures is so low, if a patient needs large doses I simply provide them with a larger quantity for the same price. A few caveats are in order: I do not use these for any stop bleeding formulas. For a clearing heat formula, I use as little alcohol as possible (25%): seems to work just fine in most cases, for example, yin qiao in a tincture seems to do just fine for heat clearing. I am very aware of the blood moving and heat producing qualities of alcohol and strive to make allowances for this. The only time I use glycerin is for sweet products such as gou qi zi, elderberry or bilberry syrup. I really appreciate the information being offered, it is just this sort of sharing that I find most valuable and fun. Thank you all very much. -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Dear Group, This is great info. Can some of you reccommend the companies you use for powdered extract? Do you also agree that using Evergreen products would be a waste? Thanks again for all the great responses. Dave Vitello , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > > My approach is quite experimental and I make no pretense to having > final answers. I have been making tinctures for 5 years and have made > many changes along the way and expect even more changes to come. Any > conclusions I have at this time are largely based on my interpretation > of my clinical results. > > Because I had a number of powdered herbs available, I decided to try > tincturing some of them. > > I reasoned that since the powders were a water extraction that I could > simply mix the powder with a mix of 1/3 grain alcohol and 2/3 > distilled water. > > The literature on tincturing usually places the range for alcohol as a > stabilizer at 25 to 35% and since I don't want spoiled product I go > for 33%. > > Then I do the fairly standard tincturing process of shaking the > powders and menstrum daily for at least 14 days and frequently up to > 21 or 30 days. > > > At first I harvested the products by pressing the mixture in a fine > cloth with a mechanical press but soon discovered the results so > muddy that now I finish by simply decanting the liquid portion and > composting the residue at the bottom. > > Since I am a single practitioner, I typically produce 500 ml at a time > and at times as small as 250ml for something rarely needed. > > And interesting question is how many grams of powder to use: the > literature says that the powder extract is usually 5 to 1, implying > that a gram of powder is roughly equivalent to 4 to 5 grams of raw > herbs. I have made some formulas with 100 g of powder per 500ml > (equivalent to your 200g per liter) and I have made the same formulas > with 50 g of powder per 500ml. > > Clinically, so far I cannot tell a difference in efficacy between the > two potencies at this time. > > The question of potency is extremely interesting since the sensitivity > of patients varies so radically (the homeopaths claim a 1000 fold and > the biochemist out of the Roger Williams tradition claim much the > same- there are no average patients) > > When I prescribe the tinctures I give the patient a wide range of > doses and encourage them to start with the low end and work their way > up to the dose that works for them. Since the cost of producing the > tinctures is so low, if a patient needs large doses I simply provide > them with a larger quantity for the same price. > > A few caveats are in order: > > I do not use these for any stop bleeding formulas. > > For a clearing heat formula, I use as little alcohol as possible > (25%): seems to work just fine in most cases, for example, yin qiao > in a tincture seems to do just fine for heat clearing. > > I am very aware of the blood moving and heat producing qualities of > alcohol and strive to make allowances for this. > > The only time I use glycerin is for sweet products such as gou qi zi, > elderberry or bilberry syrup. > > I really appreciate the information being offered, it is just this > sort of sharing that I find most valuable and fun. > > Thank you all very much. > > > > > > -- > Duncan E > > > " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " > -Mark Vonnegut > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I use their products, but not their powders. I don't use powders at all. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Tue, 1/13/09, dmvitello01 <dmvitello wrote: dmvitello01 <dmvitello Re: Evergreen powders and tinctures Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 1:58 PM Dear Group, This is great info. Can some of you reccommend the companies you use for powdered extract? Do you also agree that using Evergreen products would be a waste? Thanks again for all the great responses. Dave Vitello , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > > My approach is quite experimental and I make no pretense to having > final answers. I have been making tinctures for 5 years and have made > many changes along the way and expect even more changes to come. Any > conclusions I have at this time are largely based on my interpretation > of my clinical results. > > Because I had a number of powdered herbs available, I decided to try > tincturing some of them. > > I reasoned that since the powders were a water extraction that I could > simply mix the powder with a mix of 1/3 grain alcohol and 2/3 > distilled water. > > The literature on tincturing usually places the range for alcohol as a > stabilizer at 25 to 35% and since I don't want spoiled product I go > for 33%. > > Then I do the fairly standard tincturing process of shaking the > powders and menstrum daily for at least 14 days and frequently up to > 21 or 30 days. > > > At first I harvested the products by pressing the mixture in a fine > cloth with a mechanical press but soon discovered the results so > muddy that now I finish by simply decanting the liquid portion and > composting the residue at the bottom. > > Since I am a single practitioner, I typically produce 500 ml at a time > and at times as small as 250ml for something rarely needed. > > And interesting question is how many grams of powder to use: the > literature says that the powder extract is usually 5 to 1, implying > that a gram of powder is roughly equivalent to 4 to 5 grams of raw > herbs. I have made some formulas with 100 g of powder per 500ml > (equivalent to your 200g per liter) and I have made the same formulas > with 50 g of powder per 500ml. > > Clinically, so far I cannot tell a difference in efficacy between the > two potencies at this time. > > The question of potency is extremely interesting since the sensitivity > of patients varies so radically (the homeopaths claim a 1000 fold and > the biochemist out of the Roger Williams tradition claim much the > same- there are no average patients) > > When I prescribe the tinctures I give the patient a wide range of > doses and encourage them to start with the low end and work their way > up to the dose that works for them. Since the cost of producing the > tinctures is so low, if a patient needs large doses I simply provide > them with a larger quantity for the same price. > > A few caveats are in order: > > I do not use these for any stop bleeding formulas. > > For a clearing heat formula, I use as little alcohol as possible > (25%): seems to work just fine in most cases, for example, yin qiao > in a tincture seems to do just fine for heat clearing. > > I am very aware of the blood moving and heat producing qualities of > alcohol and strive to make allowances for this. > > The only time I use glycerin is for sweet products such as gou qi zi, > elderberry or bilberry syrup. > > I really appreciate the information being offered, it is just this > sort of sharing that I find most valuable and fun. > > Thank you all very much. > > > > > > -- > Duncan E > > > " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " > -Mark Vonnegut > --- Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 My experiences with both Evergreen and KPC products have been good. If you go back through the conversation thread, you will not find anyone criticizing Evergreen products. Bill expressed the opinion that making a tincture out of Evergreen powders would be a waste " of money " , my reading of his statement was that he was NOT criticizing the Evergreen powders, just their use to make tinctures. btw, both companies have very useful books: Clinical Manual of OM published by the Lotus Institute which is the educational arm of Evergreen and Notes from South Mountain by Andy Ellis. Both also come in CD form which can be loaded on your computer for easy reference. -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Duncan and All, First, as I (and Bill) have said, making tinctures from extracts is a waste of time and to be honest shows little understanding of extraction process, sorry if that ruffles some feathers, but honestly you are practicing medicine folks, please! You don't need more than about 18-22% alcohol to act as a preservative. That is very well documented in professional literature. I have used glycerin as a carrier for powered extracts for many years, primarily for children. It works great, but I am not extracting the powdered extract, simply mixing it with a little water and enough glycerin to preserve it for a given period of time. I make what I need for a patient's prescription, not in advance. The amount of alcohol in a dose of tincture has little medicinal effect. Although alcohol does have a medicinal action in CM, the dosages of traditional " wines " was/is very high compared to tincture dosages. I agree with Eric that there are some issues with using alcohol with traditional formulas, but honestly I have seen little in the way of problems over the years. As to heat clearing herbs in tincture form, well there is a long tradition in Western herbal medicine of using tinctures and I have been making tinctures of herbs like huang lian, jin yin hua, etc. for over 15 years and using them clinically with excellent result, frankly, some of the heat clearing herbs may actually work better as a tincture than in a water extract. I do, however, have an issue with companies that market alcohol/water extracts as though they are the same, or better for that matter, or with no disclaimer as to the fact that they are different. I think this is false advertising as I can't see how they could make such a claim. They are different, yes, but I don't see any way of knowing if they are better, worse, the same, etc. just different, and that may be just fine. Truth in advertising is a good and ethical practice. OK, that's the news from Beijing :-) There are quite a few people out there that really do know what they are doing, they are mostly trained Western herbalists, as medicine making is part of the training of nearly all Western herbalists, and TCM practitioners have little to no such training unless they sought it from outside the standard education. BTW: KW Botanicals is run by another good friend of mine, he is trained in both Chinese and Western herbal medicine and also has a science background. He has been running the company for over 25 years and makes excellent products. In Good Health, http://sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > > My approach is quite experimental and I make no pretense to having > final answers. I have been making tinctures for 5 years and have made > many changes along the way and expect even more changes to come. Any > conclusions I have at this time are largely based on my interpretation > of my clinical results. > > Because I had a number of powdered herbs available, I decided to try > tincturing some of them. > > I reasoned that since the powders were a water extraction that I could > simply mix the powder with a mix of 1/3 grain alcohol and 2/3 > distilled water. > > The literature on tincturing usually places the range for alcohol as a > stabilizer at 25 to 35% and since I don't want spoiled product I go > for 33%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 , " Al Stone " <al wrote: > Eric, do you know of any problems with the extract manufacturers? Obviously > we here a lot of stories about tainted products, have there been recalls or > problems with extract powders from either Taiwan or PRC? I don't know of many such problems, but I wouldn't write anything on the internet that would criticize any specific companies even if I did. If I was going to critique any companies, it is primarly US producers that come to mind rather than the big names of Taiwan and China. That said, I think it is rude and without class to say negative things in public about specific competing companies, so I wouldn't really answer your question in a juicy way even if I knew the answers you seek. The biggest issue with herb safety in recent times was the explosion of aristolochic acid (AA). AA is a natural constituent of a number of Chinese herbs, and is particularly problematic with fang ji and mu tong. Maybe ten years ago or so, the AA issue blew up in Belgium (admittedly, they were using herbs for weight loss in conjunction with pharms and not based on traditional use). However, before that time period, it was not generally known that AA was dangerous. Multiple companies stocked guang fang ji and guan mu tong, both of which contain AA, and the raw herbs of the marketplace often had a mixture of different species. Multiple species were regarded as viable forms of the medicinal, and it is only relatively recently that the risks of AA became widely known. Now, plants that contain AA are banned in the US, China, and Taiwan, among many other countries. The large producers now are well-aware of the AA issue, and they are required by law to show that their products use the correct species (most commonly armand's clematis for mu tong (chuan mu tong) and stephania for fang ji (han fang ji or fen fang ji). While I am not aware of any producers that have failed to step up to this issue, most of the previous problems in the US with granules have been because the older companies used to sell stuff with AA before the risks of AA were widely known. At present, all of the products should be AA-free, every company I know is very strict about this. While this risk is basically obsolete, it is worthy of note that KPC was actually ahead of the curve because of Andy Ellis. Andy knows a lot about pharmacy even by Chinese standards, and he got KP to stop using AA-containing plants before the issue blew up in the media. Most of the TCM community (in both Asia and the West) was totally unaware of the nephrotoxicity issue with AA until after it hit all the medical journals. Then FDA put out a ban, the Chinese and Taiwanese 'FDA's' all banned the AA-containing species, and the safe QC tests for AA have been with us ever since. That is the only big thing that I know about, and all the problems were basically solved ten years ago after the AA revelation came to light. Problems of confusion still exist with the raw herbs, but big granule companies purchase only the right species and confirm it with chemical and microscopic analysis. Certainly the companies that supply KPC, Evergreen, me, etc are all totally on top of this. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 , " " wrote: > You don't need more than about 18-22% alcohol to act as a > preservative. That is very well documented in professional literature. Seems that adding a bit of glycerin helps keep the solution from separating as well (into alcohol/water layers). The amount should be small because the glycerin easily dominates, but I'm not sure exactly what the perfect amount is. Without alcohol, how much glycerin is required to act a preservative? Any other ratios with stuff like Vit C or E as preservatives that would be good to know? > The amount of alcohol in a dose of tincture has little medicinal > effect. Although alcohol does have a medicinal action in CM, the > dosages of traditional " wines " was/is very high compared to tincture > dosages. The traditional Chinese liquors are usually taken in doses of about the size of a standard shot. It seems that something like yin qiao can only concentrate up to about 1g/ml, already that is very potent and it seems that it is hard to pack more solutes into the solution. Nonetheless, for the standard Chinese medical dose, you'd still need to ingest 1-2 fl. oz to equal the 30-60 grams of raw herbs that you'd boil as a tea (even that is on the low side dosage-wise). If this is a 20% alcohol solution, with alcohol just in a preservative role, it is still a half to a full fluid oz of alcohol, basically equivalent to the amount of ethanol in a standard shot of booze or traditional TCM liquor. At one shot, you can definitely feel the effect of the alcohol in the traditional tonic wines. To take the equivalent of a raw herb formula made with alcohol as a stabilizing agent, you need to either use a lower than traditional dose or ingest a measurable amount of ethanol. I certainly am not suggesting that doses need to be equivalent or that the therapeutic effects are not on point with whatever method you use, but there is an inherent mathematical quandary there because the TCM dose ranges are generally much higher than the dose ranges of Western herbal medicine. As a side question, since I have the chance to ask the expert, how do people know which herbs to tincture fresh and which ones to dry first? Some herbs are ineffective until they are dried, while others are more effective fresh (for example, cannabis is the former, qing hao is the latter if used for malaria). Is there any rule of thumb or guide that helps one to know, or is it purely plant-by-plant chemical research? Good discussion. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Dear Group, Sorry for the misunderstandings this post caused. I was really looking for advice on making granules into liquid concentrates as some patients prefer it. Eric's post was really great.. what is was hoping to hear,ie... " I basically take 200g of 5:1 granules per liter. I dissolve the granules in about 400 ml of boiled water, then mix in about 400 ml of vodka and 80 ml of glycerin to stabilize it. Takes about 5 minutes of prep and shaking, produces about a liter of 1g crude drug per ml of final product, roughly equivalent to the other commercial producers but about 1/10 the price. " Just to clarify,I wasn't asking if Evergreen products are poor quality (In fact I really like them), just wondering if using there granules in Eric's process above was ok..if there where any other considerations. I wasn't hoping to get a double extraction or something..just wanted to liquify it. I have a pretty big Evergreen granule pharmacy going and wanted to do some experimentation. Thanks for all you help with this. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Dave Vitello , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > , " " > <tag.plantgeek@> wrote: > > You don't need more than about 18-22% alcohol to act as a > > preservative. That is very well documented in professional literature. > > Seems that adding a bit of glycerin helps keep the solution from > separating as well (into alcohol/water layers). The amount should be > small because the glycerin easily dominates, but I'm not sure exactly > what the perfect amount is. Without alcohol, how much glycerin is > required to act a preservative? Any other ratios with stuff like Vit > C or E as preservatives that would be good to know? > > > The amount of alcohol in a dose of tincture has little medicinal > > effect. Although alcohol does have a medicinal action in CM, the > > dosages of traditional " wines " was/is very high compared to tincture > > dosages. > > The traditional Chinese liquors are usually taken in doses of about > the size of a standard shot. It seems that something like yin qiao > can only concentrate up to about 1g/ml, already that is very potent > and it seems that it is hard to pack more solutes into the solution. > Nonetheless, for the standard Chinese medical dose, you'd still need > to ingest 1-2 fl. oz to equal the 30-60 grams of raw herbs that you'd > boil as a tea (even that is on the low side dosage-wise). If this is > a 20% alcohol solution, with alcohol just in a preservative role, it > is still a half to a full fluid oz of alcohol, basically equivalent to > the amount of ethanol in a standard shot of booze or traditional TCM > liquor. > > At one shot, you can definitely feel the effect of the alcohol in the > traditional tonic wines. To take the equivalent of a raw herb formula > made with alcohol as a stabilizing agent, you need to either use a > lower than traditional dose or ingest a measurable amount of ethanol. > I certainly am not suggesting that doses need to be equivalent or > that the therapeutic effects are not on point with whatever method you > use, but there is an inherent mathematical quandary there because the > TCM dose ranges are generally much higher than the dose ranges of > Western herbal medicine. > > As a side question, since I have the chance to ask the expert, how do > people know which herbs to tincture fresh and which ones to dry first? > Some herbs are ineffective until they are dried, while others are > more effective fresh (for example, cannabis is the former, qing hao is > the latter if used for malaria). Is there any rule of thumb or guide > that helps one to know, or is it purely plant-by-plant chemical research? > > Good discussion. > > Eric Brand > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I thank all the participants in this thread very much for the opinions and information offered. It is very interesting to me, particularly the recent posts by Thomas and Eric. There are several points that I want to address. Thomas wrote: " First, as I (and Bill) have said, making tinctures from extracts is a waste of time and to be honest shows little understanding of extraction process, sorry if that ruffles some feathers, but honestly you are practicing medicine folks, please! " Duncan here: I need a bit more explanation than a flat statement that " making tinctures from extracts is a waste of time. " Believe me that this opinion does not " ruffle my feathers " , I appreciate any challenging perspectives and new info, however, I do need explanation and data in order to move beyond a mere response of " oh, well, he/she has a different opinion. " Thomas, to your knowledge, what happens when a powdered formula is mixed with a water/alcohol mixture, shaken for 14 to 21 days and then decanted? Thomas wrote: " You don't need more than about 18-22% alcohol to act as a preservative. That is very well documented in professional literature. " Duncan here,: This information about the % of alcohol needed for preservation is very welcomed. I assume that the % is based upon a 190 proof grain alcohol as opposed to a vodka. Thomas wrote, " The amount of alcohol in a dose of tincture has little medicinal effect. Although alcohol does have a medicinal action in CM, the dosages of traditional " wines " was/is very high compared to tincture dosages. " I agree with Eric that there are some issues with using alcohol with traditional formulas, but honestly I have seen little in the way of problems over the years. As to heat clearing herbs in tincture form, well there is a long tradition in Western herbal medicine of using tinctures and I have been making tinctures of herbs like huang lian, jin yin hua, etc. for over 15 years and using them clinically with excellent result, frankly, some of the heat clearing herbs may actually work better as a tincture than in a water extract. " end quote Duncan here: This is my basic experience and it is nice to have it corroborated by a more experienced herbalist. I assume that you are referring strictly to tinctures made from raw herbs. Thomas, what ratio of grams of raw herbs to menstrum (alcohol/water) do you generally use? Thomas wrote :BTW: KW Botanicals is run by another good friend of mine, he is trained in both Chinese and Western herbal medicine and also has a science background. He has been running the company for over 25 years and makes excellent products. Thomas, I am not familiar with KW botanicals, how do I contact the company? Eric, thank you for the historical information on AA and the role of Andy Ellis in pro-actively selecting non-AA herbs for KPC. Eric, just for the record, I have had some good results with a tinctured yin qiao in much smaller quantities and have never had to use the large quantities that you indicate. Now I am a clinician, not a strict researcher, so herbs are just one factor in my treatments which include supplements (usually Standard Process products), dietary recommendations, acupuncture, etc. and so the exact role of the herbal formulas is necessarily a bit obscure. Once again, thanks to all, -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 , " dmvitello01 " <dmvitello wrote: > Just to clarify,I wasn't asking if Evergreen products are poor > quality (In fact I really like them), just wondering if using there > granules in Eric's process above was ok..if there where any other > considerations. I wasn't hoping to get a double extraction or > something..just wanted to liquify it. I have a pretty big Evergreen > granule pharmacy going and wanted to do some experimentation. Maybe just try it out and let us know how it goes. I've used Evergreen, KPC, and my herbs (Legendary Herbs) on lots of patients and I've always been happy with the results. I've never tried making liquids with all three, but I do think that making a concentrated liquid can help make a good comparison. Basically you want to find raw materials that make the final product come out aromatic, potent, and without too much sediment. I like to try the same product from different brands side by side just in a normal cup of hot water, this is an easy way to see which ones dissolve best, taste best, have the best color, strength, etc. There is a bit of variation in these factors if you try 3-5 brands side by side. I suspect that doing a side by side experiment turning them into a liquid concentrate would be a great way to analyze their quality, then you can easily choose which choice is the best for your needs. You may find that formula A by company X is the best choice, while formula B by company Y is best. Each producer has some individual products that are better and some that are more average, I don't think there is any one producer that is the BEST across the board, all have strengths and weaknesses. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > Eric, just for the record, I have had some good results with a > tinctured yin qiao in much smaller quantities and have never had to > use the large quantities that you indicate. Believe me, I know a number of practitioners with years of experience that report excellent results from liquid extracts, alcohol/water extracts, etc. We honestly don't know why Chinese herbs work, and just because the historical method used one dose level or dosage form doesn't mean that other dosage levels or forms will be ineffective. To the contrary, there are anecdotal reports from thousands of patients that these new methods and dosage forms are highly effective. I am simply playing the devil's advocate because I am not a practitioner with decades of experience, and I don't feel comfortable deviating from the standard professional approach as I see it practiced in China and Taiwan. I don't have those years of expertise that allow me to experiment and make tracks into new and unexplored territory with my patients. Rather, I just try to dutifully practice traditional medicine with as straightforward of an approach as possible. I think this minimizes the confounding variables. Many of the people that I know who report excellent results with liquids are themselves fantastic healers, they probably make patients better with their presence and attention alone, so it is fundamentally difficult to know what how much of the patient's improvement comes from their natural healing gift (or placebo, if you want to call it that), and how much comes from the chemical soup of the herbal formula. The same is true of people that dose by traditional strong decoctions. I think we can't really answer these questions definitively. There are multiple factors in any patient's healing or lack thereof, and there are always confounding variables. I am conservative when it comes to sticking with traditional doses and delivery methods because I don't feel comfortable experimenting on the patients with unknown variables like dose and delivery methods- this way if I do something wrong, I know I can blame my diagnosis rather than my delivery form. But I certainly respect people who can pioneer new territory to expand our collective knowledge and experience, and I respect people who have such a healing gift that their patients could recover even if they were given sugar water. It would be foolish to pretend that only the traditional methods are effective, I am just personally not cavalier enough to deviate from the traditional methods because I still haven't mastered the simple basics of perfect diagnosis and formulation, that's all. I may have one way that I resonate with, but I'm not close-minded. I've had good results from personally taking long dan xie gan tang and other cold things in alcohol/water extract forms. Clearly something works. But I still wouldn't give it to my paying patients because I'd rather stick with a dosage form that has been used by millions of patients instead of thousands of patients. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 > I don't know of many such problems, but I wouldn't write anything on > the internet that would criticize any specific companies even if I > did. If I was going to critique any companies, it is primarly US > producers that come to mind rather than the big names of Taiwan and > China. That said, I think it is rude and without class to say > negative things in public about specific competing companies, so I > wouldn't really answer your question in a juicy way even if I knew the > answers you seek. Eric, Are you saying that you think posting your opinions about the quality of different companies products is rude and w/o class? It seems like that is a fine thing to do and helpful for others trying to find a good product. It's an open forum and if I post an opinion others disagree with, they are welcome to counter it with their own. Z'ev just wrote a long and helpful post about the different Nei Jing translations. He criticized (though in a civil way) and named specific names. Isn't this the same as airing opinions on different company's herb products? If you were referring to talking about a company's internal issues (employee-employer relations, salary disputes, etc.), then I can see your point. However, if a company was making a good product but being unethical in other ways (environmental, labor, etc.) then I would want to hear about that. Carl > > The biggest issue with herb safety in recent times was the explosion > of aristolochic acid (AA). AA is a natural constituent of a number of > Chinese herbs, and is particularly problematic with fang ji and mu > tong. Maybe ten years ago or so, the AA issue blew up in Belgium > (admittedly, they were using herbs for weight loss in conjunction with > pharms and not based on traditional use). However, before that time > period, it was not generally known that AA was dangerous. Multiple > companies stocked guang fang ji and guan mu tong, both of which > contain AA, and the raw herbs of the marketplace often had a mixture > of different species. Multiple species were regarded as viable forms > of the medicinal, and it is only relatively recently that the risks of > AA became widely known. > > Now, plants that contain AA are banned in the US, China, and Taiwan, > among many other countries. The large producers now are well-aware of > the AA issue, and they are required by law to show that their products > use the correct species (most commonly armand's clematis for mu tong > (chuan mu tong) and stephania for fang ji (han fang ji or fen fang > ji). While I am not aware of any producers that have failed to step > up to this issue, most of the previous problems in the US with > granules have been because the older companies used to sell stuff with > AA before the risks of AA were widely known. At present, all of the > products should be AA-free, every company I know is very strict about > this. > > While this risk is basically obsolete, it is worthy of note that KPC > was actually ahead of the curve because of Andy Ellis. Andy knows a > lot about pharmacy even by Chinese standards, and he got KP to stop > using AA-containing plants before the issue blew up in the media. > Most of the TCM community (in both Asia and the West) was totally > unaware of the nephrotoxicity issue with AA until after it hit all the > medical journals. Then FDA put out a ban, the Chinese and Taiwanese > 'FDA's' all banned the AA-containing species, and the safe QC tests > for AA have been with us ever since. > > That is the only big thing that I know about, and all the problems > were basically solved ten years ago after the AA revelation came to > light. Problems of confusion still exist with the raw herbs, but big > granule companies purchase only the right species and confirm it with > chemical and microscopic analysis. Certainly the companies that > supply KPC, Evergreen, me, etc are all totally on top of this. > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 That's correct. I use Evergreen and KPC powders, but I mostly use Mayway powders. I also use alcohol extracts. My point was simply that it is a waste of money to use an extract as starting material for a tincture. Another issue is that the extracts are comprised of mostly water soluble compounds. Simply adding alcohol does nothing except adding alcohol. If you add alcohol to orange juice, you don't get " tincture of orange " . You get a screwdriver! To do an alcohol extraction properly, you must start with the raw herb so you can extract the alcohol-soluble (lipophilic) compounds. - Bill , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > > My experiences with both Evergreen and KPC products have been good. > > If you go back through the conversation thread, you will not find > anyone criticizing Evergreen products. Bill expressed the opinion > that making a tincture out of Evergreen powders would be a waste " of > money " , my reading of his statement was that he was NOT criticizing > the Evergreen powders, just their use to make tinctures. > > btw, both companies have very useful books: Clinical Manual of OM > published by the Lotus Institute which is the educational arm of > Evergreen and Notes from South Mountain by Andy Ellis. Both also come > in CD form which can be loaded on your computer for easy reference. > > -- > Duncan E > > > " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " > -Mark Vonnegut > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I didn't like the post that told us the name of an individual in a company... I don't know the people involved, nor the companies actually, nor where any competition lies, but as you said, lets just keep it to the products without the inner mechanisms and personalities of those involved. Doug > > Eric, > > Are you saying that you think posting your opinions about the quality > of different companies products is rude and w/o class? It seems like > that is a fine thing to do and helpful for others trying to find a > good product. It's an open forum and if I post an opinion others > disagree with, they are welcome to counter it with their own. > > Z'ev just wrote a long and helpful post about the different Nei Jing > translations. He criticized (though in a civil way) and named specific > names. Isn't this the same as airing opinions on different company's > herb products? > > If you were referring to talking about a company's internal issues > (employee-employer relations, salary disputes, etc.), then I can see > your point. However, if a company was making a good product but being > unethical in other ways (environmental, labor, etc.) then I would want > to hear about that. > > Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 To Bill, Thank you very much for your explanation. It is clear and makes sense. I agree now that it is sloppy nomenclature on my part if I describe alcohol stabilized powder herbs as tinctures which implies that they include the alcohol-soluble (lipophilic) compounds. Thank you for your correction. To Carl, Eric is in the herbal supply business. It is almost never a good idea to criticize one's competitors, it just makes for poor relations with one's competitors and looks like a cheap shot, no matter how valid the criticism may be. On the other hand, if someone does NOT have a financial stake in the herb business and knows of an ethical or quality problem with an herbal supplier, I think it is a service to come forward with the information provided that there is some sort of documentation or other proof. Innuendo and unfounded information would not serve the community. -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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