Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Duncan, The powdered extracts are already stable, so adding alcohol doesn't really stabilize them. It just mixes them with alcohol. Also, a typical dose of a powder extract is 4 - 6 grams. It would take a lot of alcohol to make that into a liquid. Why consume that much alcohol if it isn't doing anything? On the other hand, if you stir that stable powder into a cup of hot water, you get a liquid preparation that is very much like a decoction. Since water is readily available, and the powder extract is already stable, I just don't see the point of mixing it with alcohol. If you like the idea of using liquid extracts, just buy the ones from Kan and others. They are fluid extracts, which are about 4 times stronger than tinctures, and they are convenient. - Bill , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > > To Bill, > > Thank you very much for your explanation. It is clear and makes sense. > > I agree now that it is sloppy nomenclature on my part if I describe > alcohol stabilized powder herbs as tinctures which implies that they > include the alcohol-soluble (lipophilic) compounds. Thank you for > your correction. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Duncan, Eric, David, et al, First, let me apologize for naming names of a company, especially one that is not well known to this group. That particular company is one that I have used a lot over the years, but more recently there have been some changes in their business ethics that I personally find quite unpalatable. OK, this is a great discussion and one that I think is badly needed for the CM community. I will attempt to answer your questions best I can and give my personal experience and knowledge to all those interested. But first a little shameless promotion, all the basic processes for herbal medicine making are outlined in my book, Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide. As Bill said, adding alcohol to a water extract is not making a tincture, it is simply preserving the extract with alcohol. I would suggest that you simply use glycerin at about 30-35%, which should persevere the liquid just fine and then there is no alcohol issue. Using alcohol does absolutely nothing for the extract except adding the alcohol. When making a tincture the alcohol and water mixture are working as solvents. But if you use a water extract of an herb, there is no chance for the alcohol to extract anything from the herbs, that portion of the herb has gone into the compost pile. When referring to alcohol percentage I (and anyone with training) am referring to the actual alcohol percentage, not to the amount of " alcohol product " used. I strongly suggest that anyone making tinctures use pharmaceutical grade ethanol, which can be purchased from a variety of sources, organic is even available from some of them. Using vodka is a fair substitution, but not a good one. If you use vodka, use a high quality one, not a cheap one. As to the percentage of alcohol needed to tincture a particular plant, well to be honest that is information that is either available is various places or is based on both knowledge of the chemistry of a plant and experience. Furthermore, it depends if you are making a product with fresh plants or dried plants. I have been considering writing this material up for some time but honestly there simply isn't a large market for such work and I just don't have the time for such a project at this time. I have been in discussion with another herbalist to do this in the future, but that is probably several years away. Finally, I would like to commend anyone who makes medicines for themselves. I personally love the process and believe that when I make medicines for my patients it is like cooking for them. As a former chef, I can say that when you put your qi into food, people feel it. I believe this is also true for making herbal medicines. I don't want to sound to airy-fairy, but my experience tells me this is true. This is also true for growing or wildcrafting your own plants. Of course, there comes a time when it is hard to balance all these things, but even when I was really busy and found little time to wildcraft, I still gardened (I personally find it very therapeutic) and used many plants from my garden in my clinical practice. In Good Health, http://sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 , " carlstimson " <carlstimson wrote: > Are you saying that you think posting your opinions about the quality > of different companies products is rude and w/o class? It seems like > that is a fine thing to do and helpful for others trying to find a > good product. I feel like it is a bit different because I have my own granule company, so I have a vested interest in addition to a simple opinion. If I said something disparaging about another company, people would question the validity of my post because people might think I was just trying to promote myself. It just wouldn't be polite to use CHA as a way to make digs on competitors, and I would like my competitors to treat me with the same courtesy. Believe me, I'm not shy to state a strong opinion about a more neutral topic, but I would like whatever information I offer on granules to be taken based on the merit of the information, without any murkiness from the mixed intentions of commercial enterprise. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > That's correct. I use Evergreen and KPC powders, but I mostly use > Mayway powders. I also use alcohol extracts. My point was simply that > it is a waste of money to use an extract as starting material for a > tincture. Another issue is that the extracts are comprised of mostly > water soluble compounds. Simply adding alcohol does nothing except > adding alcohol. If you add alcohol to orange juice, you don't get > " tincture of orange " . You get a screwdriver! To do an alcohol > extraction properly, you must start with the raw herb so you can > extract the alcohol-soluble (lipophilic) compounds. Of course I completely agree with Bill here. But the question is, do we want to make alcohol extracts or water extracts? Each has advantages, and each individual substance is likely better in one form or the other. There are many substances that are more effective as an alcohol extract, but there are also many substances used in Chinese medicine that were never historically used as an alcohol extract. For those who use tinctures of Chinese herbs, how do you dose it? Western herbs are usually dosed by the dropper, Chinese liquors are usually dosed by the shot. No doubt many people have experience using Western herbs by the shot and Chinese herbs by the dropper. Anyone notice better results with a given herb when taken by the dropper than as a granule? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Eric, Resinous herbs like Ru Xiang and Mo Yao are very strong when extracted in alcohol. Not surprising, since they have very little solubility in water. In my experience they are much stronger than dried extract. In most other cases, I find the dried extracts to be the stronger dosage form. - Bill > > Of course I completely agree with Bill here. But the question is, do > we want to make alcohol extracts or water extracts? Each has > advantages, and each individual substance is likely better in one form > or the other. There are many substances that are more effective as an > alcohol extract, but there are also many substances used in Chinese > medicine that were never historically used as an alcohol extract. > > For those who use tinctures of Chinese herbs, how do you dose it? > Western herbs are usually dosed by the dropper, Chinese liquors are > usually dosed by the shot. No doubt many people have experience using > Western herbs by the shot and Chinese herbs by the dropper. Anyone > notice better results with a given herb when taken by the dropper than > as a granule? > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: > Anyone > notice better results with a given herb when taken by the dropper than > as a granule? > I haven't had a chance to compare granules to tincture-by-the-dropper, but I have compared granules taken in fluid decoction (or powders washed down with water) and granules in capsules. There was a time when I was standing up for much of the day (making herb formulas, of all things) and this took its toll on my low back. I took a formula based on zuo gui yin and put it into capsules. It took about 4 days before my back to no longer hurt in the afternoon. However, a year or so later, the same thing arose, but I was too lazy to put the granules into capsules, so I just bit the bullet and dumped the same formula directly into my mouth and washed it down with water. It had a strong taste, but I got used to it. This time, it took closer to four hours before the pain was gone compared to four days otherwise. I figure that tasting the herbs causes a more immediate effect on the body than simply absorbing the ingredients. The other variable is that five capsules makes up a heaping teaspoon. I might take five capsules and feel that I've taken a full dose, but when taking the granules I might feel more satiated with two teaspoons rather than one. I don't recall the dosage when I had my back pain, but many on this list agree that the key mistake that we tend to make with granules is under-dosing. It may be that taking ten capsules, three times daily is just too high of a number for our Western expectations of " take two pills and call me in the morning " or even worse the " One-A-Day " approach to dosing. Ever since then, I've tried to encourage patients to take their granules by stirring them into hot water, or spooning it into the mouth and washing it down with water. Just more efficacious. -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > Resinous herbs like Ru Xiang and Mo Yao are very strong when extracted > in alcohol. Not surprising, since they have very little solubility in > water. In my experience they are much stronger than dried extract. In > most other cases, I find the dried extracts to be the stronger dosage > form. Thanks for sharing. Incidentally, the Chinese herb textbooks all say that ru xiang and mo yao are best used drenched (taken as a straight powder washed down with the decoction), because their active constituents are not very water soluble. It makes sense that alcohol would be a good medium to extract them, I'm curious how the granule companies deal with these. I'll definitely ask when I go to the factories in Taiwan and China next month, and I'll share my findings with the group. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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