Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 By the way, for anyone who is in Chicago... I am doing a free lecture on global trends in granule use at PCOM Chicago on 1/19 at 4 pm, and at Midwest School of Oriental Medicine on 1/17 at 1 pm (Chicago campus). And for anyone in NY... I'm doing a lecture on Evidence-Based Medicine trends in China and Taiwan at Tristate on 1/25 at 5:30 pm, and lectures on granules as well as EBM at NYCC on 1/22 & 1/23. All these free lectures are primarily for students at the schools, but contact me off list if you want to come and hopefully we can work it out. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Do you ever record your lectures? -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Hi Eric et al, This question is regarding dosing for granules. Let's say for example I am using Legendary herbs 5:1 concentration granule formulas and I want the patient to take a granule equivalent equal to the amount that I would normally decocte with 15 grams of raw herbs. Would I prescribe 3 grams of concentrate granules? Seems kind of high! Please tell me how is it done? Thank you, Steve --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Duncan E <willhealu wrote: Duncan E <willhealu Re: Re: Granule concentration ratios Friday, January 16, 2009, 8:11 PM Do you ever record your lectures? -- Duncan E " We are here to help each other get though this thing, whatever it is. " -Mark Vonnegut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 , Steve Sterling <acusteve1 wrote: > > Hi Eric et al, > > This question is regarding dosing for granules. Let's say for example I am using Legendary herbs 5:1 concentration granule formulas and I want the patient to take a granule equivalent equal to the amount that I would normally decocte with 15 grams of raw herbs. Would I prescribe 3 grams of concentrate granules? Seems kind of high! Please tell me how is it done? General consensus is yes, if you have a 5:1 concentration and you want the equivalent of 15g, it takes 3g of extract powder to achieve that. In actual practice, the granule dose may be slightly lower because the extraction is more complete than one would get with a home decoction. A large TCM hospital in Jinan, China did a study comparing granules with raw herbs in 57,000 patients. They found that granules outperformed raw when insect products or difficult to extract medicinals like gui ban where used. They also found that granules seemed to be slightly stronger than raw herbs when compared mathematically by weight. For example, pu gong ying has a side effect of mild diarrhea at high doses. This side effect appeared to manifest more readily at high doses of granules than it did at the equivalent dose of raw herbs, suggesting that that 30g of crude drug is less potent than the granule equivalent of 30g of crude drug. In other words, you might be able to get the same mileage out of a slightly lower dose when using the product as a granule rather than a raw herb. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 , " Duncan E " <willhealu wrote: > > Do you ever record your lectures? I will record them one of these days, and then I can post them online for download. I just got a new computer, so I'll probably set up the recording thing within a few months. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hi Eric, Do you have any sense of an herb extract's shelf life is? Depends on the oils perhaps? Bo he less long than long gu for instance? -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 , " Al Stone " <al wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > Do you have any sense of an herb extract's shelf life is? > Depends on the oils perhaps? > Bo he less long than long gu for instance? Depends on if it is open or not. Generally at least 3 yrs. Long gu could probably handle another 60 million years. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: > --- In <%40>, > " Al Stone " <al wrote: > > > > Hi Eric, > > > > Do you have any sense of an herb extract's shelf life is? > > Depends on the oils perhaps? > > Bo he less long than long gu for instance? > > Depends on if it is open or not. Generally at least 3 yrs. Long gu > could probably handle another 60 million years. > ha ha What is that long gu, anyway? I've heard that it is petrified cow bone. Any insight there? -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Eric, I wonder about this. I find that one of the number one side-effects of granulars is loose stools / digestive problems. I have seen this often, and it is seems clear that it is the granulars (fillers?) because an identical formula in bulk does not cause the problem. Thoughts? -Jason On Behalf Of Eric Brand Monday, January 19, 2009 1:40 PM Re: Granule concentration ratios <%40> , Steve Sterling <acusteve1 wrote: > > Hi Eric et al, > > This question is regarding dosing for granules. Let's say for example I am using Legendary herbs 5:1 concentration granule formulas and I want the patient to take a granule equivalent equal to the amount that I would normally decocte with 15 grams of raw herbs. Would I prescribe 3 grams of concentrate granules? Seems kind of high! Please tell me how is it done? General consensus is yes, if you have a 5:1 concentration and you want the equivalent of 15g, it takes 3g of extract powder to achieve that. In actual practice, the granule dose may be slightly lower because the extraction is more complete than one would get with a home decoction. A large TCM hospital in Jinan, China did a study comparing granules with raw herbs in 57,000 patients. They found that granules outperformed raw when insect products or difficult to extract medicinals like gui ban where used. They also found that granules seemed to be slightly stronger than raw herbs when compared mathematically by weight. For example, pu gong ying has a side effect of mild diarrhea at high doses. This side effect appeared to manifest more readily at high doses of granules than it did at the equivalent dose of raw herbs, suggesting that that 30g of crude drug is less potent than the granule equivalent of 30g of crude drug. In other words, you might be able to get the same mileage out of a slightly lower dose when using the product as a granule rather than a raw herb. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Eric and Group, Another thing to consider with this pu gong ying issue is this: The extraction process (for whatever reason) may have produced an imbalanced ratio of constituents. For example extracting some of the unwanted (side effect) constituents at higher amounts than a water decoction would. One cannot assume that all the constituents are at higher levels (especially the therapeutic ones). Many times side-effect constituents are different than the " therapeutic " constituents, this is why proper balance is essential. This is of course exactly the point of the argument I have put forth. Just curious, where was this observation done? I would think the only way to truly determine if a water decoction and granular extract were equal is some thin layer chromatography (or other constituent measuring method). Of course this is problematic because we do not always know the important constituents. What such analysis has shown is that different methods of extraction will yield different profiles. Hence why many do not like using tinctures. The higher concentration ratios one wants to achieve the more decisions that have to be made in relation to this profiles and which constituents are " most important " in the final product. I think it is pretty much a given that a 20:1 extraction will look nothing like a water decoction. So where is the cut off? 10:1, 5:1. Or is it herb dependent? -Jason On Behalf Of Eric Brand For example, pu gong ying has a side effect of mild diarrhea at high doses. This side effect appeared to manifest more readily at high doses of granules than it did at the equivalent dose of raw herbs, suggesting that that 30g of crude drug is less potent than the granule equivalent of 30g of crude drug. In other words, you might be able to get the same mileage out of a slightly lower dose when using the product as a granule rather than a raw herb. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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