Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hi, I'm considering the different ways of setting up a pharmacy and I had the idea of setting up something different than the usual raw, granule, powder, or pill options. I'm wondering if it's possible to set up a pharmacy using primarily (i.e. over 50%) local medicinals. " Local " is a relative word. For starters, let's just say a local medicinal is something that wasn't shipped from across the sea, but using substances as close to home as possible being ideal. I'm wondering if this kind of pharmacy would be economical, extensive enough to do TCM herbalism, and easy enough to supply without an extreme amount of effort. I'd love to hear about pros and cons from anyone with experience trying to do something like this! Thanks, Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 The most commonly heard myth is that once you move the herb out of its native environment, it will loose its medicinal attributes. Obviously not true for most western herbs, maybe you can try Chinese herbs, too. So if you can create enough demands, then definitely you will find supplier. Since you know Goji berries become a new big thing in the US for the past 2 or 3 years, I heard people living in Castro Valley, CA saying he saw fresh Goji berries being sold on the farmer's market. What's the most commonly used herbs? How much do you use regularly? How big is the market in your area? Some chefs own their own farms that supply most of the vegetables for their restaurants. Do you think you can support a farm from the income from your practice? On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 12:51 PM, carlstimson <carlstimson wrote: > Hi, > > I'm considering the different ways of setting up a pharmacy and I had > the idea of setting up something different than the usual raw, > granule, powder, or pill options. > > I'm wondering if it's possible to set up a pharmacy using primarily > (i.e. over 50%) local medicinals. > > " Local " is a relative word. For starters, let's just say a local > medicinal is something that wasn't shipped from across the sea, but > using substances as close to home as possible being ideal. > > I'm wondering if this kind of pharmacy would be economical, extensive > enough to do TCM herbalism, and easy enough to supply without an > extreme amount of effort. > > I'd love to hear about pros and cons from anyone with experience > trying to do something like this! > > Thanks, > > Carl > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Gerry, I agree that growing an herb in a different environment does not eliminate all of its medicinal attributes. BTW, who says this? However I do think it is well documented in both Chinese and Western agricultural that growing environments (hence location) can seriously impact the ratio of constituents, hence produce radical changes in the properties of the medicinals. This is one reason that the same herb grown in different regions in China will have different properties. To assume that one can just grow any Chinese herb in the West and have the same medicinal action is foolhardy. Many Western " growers " have no idea about the intricacies that go into properly growing Chinese herbs. Many think they can just throw some seeds into the ground and presto. Many of our Chinese herbs come from professional growers. They are not messing around. I have spent a bit of time with some of these people in China. They not only often have PHD's in their field (specific medicinal agriculture) , but they pay attention to so many details, making one's head spin, so as to mimic the natural environment that specific herbs are traditionally grown in. Many have million dollar facilities making sure that proper quality standards are met. For example, in one organic " tie pi shi hu " farm I visited they had to grow ling zhi on special logs, let the logs decompose for years so as to use this specific organic matter to form a base (soil) for the shi hu. They not only bought the land directly under the original cliffs that the shi hu grows on, but have sophisticated measures to control the light and humidity to mimic these conditions. I could go on and on with details, which personally I found very interesting. Can one ignore all these factors? Of course. But IMHO such products fall very short. My point is not to try such an endeavor, but one must study thoroughly, probably with some experts in China, to really figure out how to grow the herbs (and harvest) them correctly. Furthermore, most of herbs go through some processing to get them ready for " our " use. This also is an important (often overlooked step in the west) that will change the nature and properties of the medicinals. Many herbs that we get are already soaked, dry fried etc. Furthermore, I would have to see studies on Western herbs that say that environment does not change the clinical effectiveness or more precisely the ratio of (active) constituents. Soil, water, light etc are basic factors that we know effect the ratios of constituents. Even within a single field of plants, plants on the outside of the field, versus the inside, will have drastically different ratios of their active constituents due to differences in watering patterns (if this factor is not regulated). Do we really think that the mere seed itself is all that matters to create medicinal effective herbs? My 2 cents. - On Behalf Of Gerry Kuo Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:25 AM Re: Local herbalism The most commonly heard myth is that once you move the herb out of its native environment, it will loose its medicinal attributes. Obviously not true for most western herbs, maybe you can try Chinese herbs, too. So if you can create enough demands, then definitely you will find supplier. Since you know Goji berries become a new big thing in the US for the past 2 or 3 years, I heard people living in Castro Valley, CA saying he saw fresh Goji berries being sold on the farmer's market. What's the most commonly used herbs? How much do you use regularly? How big is the market in your area? Some chefs own their own farms that supply most of the vegetables for their restaurants. Do you think you can support a farm from the income from your practice? On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 12:51 PM, carlstimson <carlstimson <carlstimson%40gmail.com> > wrote: > Hi, > > I'm considering the different ways of setting up a pharmacy and I had > the idea of setting up something different than the usual raw, > granule, powder, or pill options. > > I'm wondering if it's possible to set up a pharmacy using primarily > (i.e. over 50%) local medicinals. > > " Local " is a relative word. For starters, let's just say a local > medicinal is something that wasn't shipped from across the sea, but > using substances as close to home as possible being ideal. > > I'm wondering if this kind of pharmacy would be economical, extensive > enough to do TCM herbalism, and easy enough to supply without an > extreme amount of effort. > > I'd love to hear about pros and cons from anyone with experience > trying to do something like this! > > Thanks, > > Carl > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Jason: Always a pleasure to see your scientific point of view, and it makes me thinking, too. I'm glad to hear there are still people care about growing Chinese herbs in China. It should be a no-brainer, but after hearing so many horrible stories about Chinese products, and how poor the farmers are there, many times I wonder how good is the quality of the herbs I bought here. Totally agree that preparing the herbs is essential, many herbs are poisonous and require proper preparation. All TCM students in China are required to take the class of " Pao Zhi " , preparing herbs. Since fresh herbs are rare here in the US, it's not a required class. But a home gardener maybe can start with herbs that only require drying? Overall, I think it's important to know your herbs, growing it is also a way to know more about the herb you use. True, the territory is important, but Californians did not stop growing the grapes and are making wonderful wine today. For this reason, I encourage anyone who wants to grow Chinese herbs in the back yard do it just like myself, and study study study. Obviously I will be the first one trying the herb I grow myself, and it's the only way I will learn how to use my herb. Gerry On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:33 AM, < > wrote: > Gerry, > > I agree that growing an herb in a different environment does not eliminate > all of its medicinal attributes. BTW, who says this? However I do think it > is well documented in both Chinese and Western agricultural that growing > environments (hence location) can seriously impact the ratio of > constituents, hence produce radical changes in the properties of the > medicinals. This is one reason that the same herb grown in different > regions > in China will have different properties. To assume that one can just grow > any Chinese herb in the West and have the same medicinal action is > foolhardy. > > Many Western " growers " have no idea about the intricacies that go into > properly growing Chinese herbs. Many think they can just throw some seeds > into the ground and presto. > > Many of our Chinese herbs come from professional growers. They are not > messing around. I have spent a bit of time with some of these people in > China. They not only often have PHD's in their field (specific medicinal > agriculture) , but they pay attention to so many details, making one's head > spin, so as to mimic the natural environment that specific herbs are > traditionally grown in. Many have million dollar facilities making sure > that > proper quality standards are met. For example, in one organic " tie pi shi > hu " farm I visited they had to grow ling zhi on special logs, let the logs > decompose for years so as to use this specific organic matter to form a > base > (soil) for the shi hu. They not only bought the land directly under the > original cliffs that the shi hu grows on, but have sophisticated measures > to > control the light and humidity to mimic these conditions. I could go on and > on with details, which personally I found very interesting. Can one ignore > all these factors? Of course. But IMHO such products fall very short. > > My point is not to try such an endeavor, but one must study thoroughly, > probably with some experts in China, to really figure out how to grow the > herbs (and harvest) them correctly. Furthermore, most of herbs go through > some processing to get them ready for " our " use. This also is an important > (often overlooked step in the west) that will change the nature and > properties of the medicinals. Many herbs that we get are already soaked, > dry > fried etc. > > Furthermore, I would have to see studies on Western herbs that say that > environment does not change the clinical effectiveness or more precisely > the > ratio of (active) constituents. Soil, water, light etc are basic factors > that we know effect the ratios of constituents. Even within a single field > of plants, plants on the outside of the field, versus the inside, will have > drastically different ratios of their active constituents due to > differences > in watering patterns (if this factor is not regulated). > > Do we really think that the mere seed itself is all that matters to create > medicinal effective herbs? > > My 2 cents. > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 No, I don't think I can support a farm with my market. I'm pretty small time at this point. I'm looking to take advantage of existing businesses and products to formulate a pharmacy that consists of primarily local medicinals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese herbs in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the Himalayas. I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub but no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates. Frances Gander, L.Ac. Athens, Ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I found goji berries/gou qi zi growing wild in Taos, N.M. at an altitude of 7000 feet during an herb seminar/herb walk I taught there four years ago. Tasted wonderful, but didn't check for constituents. On Feb 4, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Frances L. Gander wrote: > Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better > understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native > habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a > group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese > herbs > in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically > tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will > take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High > quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the > Himalayas. > I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub > but > no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates. > > Frances Gander, L.Ac. > Athens, Ohio > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Interesting discussion, everyone - While I was a member of student council at PCOM-San Diego, I had explored the possibility of starting an herb garden as a school project. I found sources for many herbs at the Berkeley Botanical Garden, which has a section dedicated to Chinese herbs, and at ACTCM in San Francisco. What the botanist in Berkeley told me was that they were able to grow the herbs, but the climate was not warm enough for most of them to flower. It was her opinion that the warmer climate in southern California would suit most of the herbs much better. Flowering and fruiting are the signs of optimal health for a plant. When a plant is distressed, it will drop buds before they open, or drop fruit before it matures, or produce seeds that will not sprout. It is fairly common for as simple a stress as insufficient water to cause this. Likewise, too much water can also cause this, as can abrupt weather changes and other events. It is not much different from people having reproductive difficulties as a result of poor health. Ultimately, we did not start the PCOM garden because we did not have land for one. While I think growing herbs is a wonderful project for any herbalist, because it helps us connect with our medicine better, anyone considering doing so should know that there are many factors that go into growing herbs that are potent. These include good stock (seeds or cuttings from plants that are healthy, medicinally potent and not contaminated), proper climate, planting and harvesting in the proper seasons for each species, and soil constituency. Of these, I think soil constituency is probably the element most overlooked, and the hardest one to replicate. The minerals and microorganisms present in a plant's native soil contribute greatly to the nature and properties which plants develop as they grow. Take a plant out of its native soil, and you ultimately end up with a different plant. Sometimes this is apparent visually, for instance, the leaves might change to a different color, or the rate of growth might speed up or slow down, or it might grow more compact or more spindly. Or it might be susceptible to diseases it would not encounter in its native soil. It is difficult to know exactly what elements in the soil contribute to the potency and health of a plant, and in which ways. This is not to say I think it is futile to grow herbs locally. I think it is a wonderful practice, but the end products might not behave medicinally the same ways as those grown in their own native environment. I would love to see comparisons in medicinal potency made between herbs grown locally and those grown in China (or other native habitats). Is there anyone already doing this? Any of our US herb manufacturers? Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Tue, 2/3/09, Gerry Kuo <gerrrykuo wrote: Gerry Kuo <gerrrykuo Re: Local herbalism Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 11:31 PM Jason: Always a pleasure to see your scientific point of view, and it makes me thinking, too. I'm glad to hear there are still people care about growing Chinese herbs in China. It should be a no-brainer, but after hearing so many horrible stories about Chinese products, and how poor the farmers are there, many times I wonder how good is the quality of the herbs I bought here. Totally agree that preparing the herbs is essential, many herbs are poisonous and require proper preparation. All TCM students in China are required to take the class of " Pao Zhi " , preparing herbs. Since fresh herbs are rare here in the US, it's not a required class. But a home gardener maybe can start with herbs that only require drying? Overall, I think it's important to know your herbs, growing it is also a way to know more about the herb you use. True, the territory is important, but Californians did not stop growing the grapes and are making wonderful wine today. For this reason, I encourage anyone who wants to grow Chinese herbs in the back yard do it just like myself, and study study study. Obviously I will be the first one trying the herb I grow myself, and it's the only way I will learn how to use my herb. Gerry On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:33 AM, < > wrote: > Gerry, > > I agree that growing an herb in a different environment does not eliminate > all of its medicinal attributes. BTW, who says this? However I do think it > is well documented in both Chinese and Western agricultural that growing > environments (hence location) can seriously impact the ratio of > constituents, hence produce radical changes in the properties of the > medicinals. This is one reason that the same herb grown in different > regions > in China will have different properties. To assume that one can just grow > any Chinese herb in the West and have the same medicinal action is > foolhardy. > > Many Western " growers " have no idea about the intricacies that go into > properly growing Chinese herbs. Many think they can just throw some seeds > into the ground and presto. > > Many of our Chinese herbs come from professional growers. They are not > messing around. I have spent a bit of time with some of these people in > China. They not only often have PHD's in their field (specific medicinal > agriculture) , but they pay attention to so many details, making one's head > spin, so as to mimic the natural environment that specific herbs are > traditionally grown in. Many have million dollar facilities making sure > that > proper quality standards are met. For example, in one organic " tie pi shi > hu " farm I visited they had to grow ling zhi on special logs, let the logs > decompose for years so as to use this specific organic matter to form a > base > (soil) for the shi hu. They not only bought the land directly under the > original cliffs that the shi hu grows on, but have sophisticated measures > to > control the light and humidity to mimic these conditions. I could go on and > on with details, which personally I found very interesting. Can one ignore > all these factors? Of course. But IMHO such products fall very short. > > My point is not to try such an endeavor, but one must study thoroughly, > probably with some experts in China, to really figure out how to grow the > herbs (and harvest) them correctly. Furthermore, most of herbs go through > some processing to get them ready for " our " use. This also is an important > (often overlooked step in the west) that will change the nature and > properties of the medicinals. Many herbs that we get are already soaked, > dry > fried etc. > > Furthermore, I would have to see studies on Western herbs that say that > environment does not change the clinical effectiveness or more precisely > the > ratio of (active) constituents. Soil, water, light etc are basic factors > that we know effect the ratios of constituents. Even within a single field > of plants, plants on the outside of the field, versus the inside, will have > drastically different ratios of their active constituents due to > differences > in watering patterns (if this factor is not regulated). > > Do we really think that the mere seed itself is all that matters to create > medicinal effective herbs? > > My 2 cents. > > - > --- Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'd be surprised if this hasn't come up on this group before, but Peggy Schaeffer and Jean Gibblette are doing some pretty phenomenal work orchestrating the growth of Chinese medicinals domestically. http://www.chinesemedicinalherbfarm.com/ I use several of their herbs clinically including Chai Hu, Bai Zhi, Cang Er Zi, Bo He, Huo Xiang, Zi Su Ye, and He Huan Hua and consistently get the results I'm looking for. Being as aromatic as most of these are one needn't apply technologies other than basic LO (Luddite Organoleptics) analysis to assess their potency. One of the challenges of their plant offerings is that some of what they are growing won't be ready for another 2 years or more. I believe Bill Schoenbart is doing a comparative chromatography study with domestically produced Dan Shen. Can you verify that Bill? There is a new text book that Roy Upton's American Herbal Pharmacopoeia that covers criteria and methods for labratory analysis of herbal medicines. I don't know how much it digs into the TCM materia medica though. Just a few loosely connected threads. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Here is a link to a farm in upstate NY that is growing Chinese herbs. Of particular interest may be the " Newsletter & Publications " link as well as the " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I've grown saplings from Peggy Schaeffer's farm in Petaluma. The herbs are much much more potent and alive, when they are harvested fresh. The problem is of course space and time (growth and harvest) limitations. I grew dan shen for 2 years and it looked like true cinnabar when I pulled the roots. You can also buy dried herbs and tinctures from them as well. They are more expensive, but it may be worth it in your practice. Highfallsgardens.net is a collective of these organic growers from around the country. We should definitely support them. K On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:22 PM, <mns07 wrote: > Here is a link to a farm in upstate NY that is growing Chinese > herbs. Of particular interest may be the " Newsletter & Publications " > link as well as the " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 For my DAOM research, I am comparing samples of Dan Shen from Hong Kong, China, and Taiwan with Dan Shen grown at the organic herb farm in Petaluma. The local organic samples routinely have higher levels of tanshinones and salvianolic acid, compounds that have shown therapeutic effects in dozens of studies. This is just one study, but it is intriguing. Herbs don't know if they are growing in China or not. They DO know if they are have ideal or poor climate, soil conditions, cultivation techniques and latitude. Properly grown herbs will thrive in this country if given the right conditions. - Bill , " Frances L. Gander " <threetreasures wrote: > > Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better > understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native > habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a > group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese herbs > in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically > tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will > take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High > quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the Himalayas. > I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub but > no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates. > > Frances Gander, L.Ac. > Athens, Ohio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Frances, A couple of points about growing Gou Qi Zi: 1. There is a variety that is grown for the leaves, so they can be used as a vegetable. That variety is not inclined to fruit. 2. I have seen good fruitings of Gou Qi Zi at altitudes near sea level, both in California and Oregon. They seem to like a nice hot dry summer. 3. Do you know Cindy at Plant It Herbs? She is in your area, and has lots of experience growing Chinese herbs. Maybe she has grown Gou Qi Zi? Here is a link in case you don't know her: http://www.plantitherbs.com/ - Bill , " Frances L. Gander " <threetreasures wrote: > > Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better > understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native > habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a > group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese herbs > in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically > tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will > take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High > quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the Himalayas. > I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub but > no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates. > > Frances Gander, L.Ac. > Athens, Ohio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > For my DAOM research, I am comparing samples of Dan Shen from Hong > Kong, China, and Taiwan with Dan Shen grown at the organic herb farm > in Petaluma. The local organic samples routinely have higher levels of > tanshinones and salvianolic acid, compounds that have shown > therapeutic effects in dozens of studies. This is just one study, but > it is intriguing. Bill, You should contact Dr. Zhao Zhongzhen of Hong Kong Baptist University. Dr. Zhao is one of the world's top experts on herbal pharmacy, and his grad students have an entire lab area devoted to research similar to what you are describing. They have hundreds of boxes, each containing 100 samples of the same medicinal (including Dan Shen) from markets throughout China, and I'm sure that they would be interested to compare data with you. They essentially analyze 100 different samples of the same herb (ideally with information on growing area, harvest season, etc) and compare the compounds within. Very ground-breaking, top-level academic research, and they'd love to hear data about the same species grown in the US. Contact me off list for Dr. Zhao's email. Good posts, btw. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Eric, Very cool research. I'll contact you off-list. - Bill , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > , " bill_schoenbart " > <plantmed2@> wrote: > > > > For my DAOM research, I am comparing samples of Dan Shen from Hong > > Kong, China, and Taiwan with Dan Shen grown at the organic herb farm > > in Petaluma. The local organic samples routinely have higher levels of > > tanshinones and salvianolic acid, compounds that have shown > > therapeutic effects in dozens of studies. This is just one study, but > > it is intriguing. > > Bill, > > You should contact Dr. Zhao Zhongzhen of Hong Kong Baptist University. > Dr. Zhao is one of the world's top experts on herbal pharmacy, and > his grad students have an entire lab area devoted to research similar > to what you are describing. They have hundreds of boxes, each > containing 100 samples of the same medicinal (including Dan Shen) from > markets throughout China, and I'm sure that they would be interested > to compare data with you. They essentially analyze 100 different > samples of the same herb (ideally with information on growing area, > harvest season, etc) and compare the compounds within. Very > ground-breaking, top-level academic research, and they'd love to hear > data about the same species grown in the US. Contact me off list for > Dr. Zhao's email. > > Good posts, btw. > > Eric Brand > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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