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Hi,

 

I'm considering the different ways of setting up a pharmacy and I had

the idea of setting up something different than the usual raw,

granule, powder, or pill options.

 

I'm wondering if it's possible to set up a pharmacy using primarily

(i.e. over 50%) local medicinals.

 

" Local " is a relative word. For starters, let's just say a local

medicinal is something that wasn't shipped from across the sea, but

using substances as close to home as possible being ideal.

 

I'm wondering if this kind of pharmacy would be economical, extensive

enough to do TCM herbalism, and easy enough to supply without an

extreme amount of effort.

 

I'd love to hear about pros and cons from anyone with experience

trying to do something like this!

 

Thanks,

 

Carl

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The most commonly heard myth is that once you move the herb out of its

native environment, it will loose its medicinal attributes. Obviously not

true for most western herbs, maybe you can try Chinese herbs, too. So if you

can create enough demands, then definitely you will find supplier. Since you

know Goji berries become a new big thing in the US for the past 2 or 3

years, I heard people living in Castro Valley, CA saying he saw fresh Goji

berries being sold on the farmer's market.

 

What's the most commonly used herbs? How much do you use regularly? How big

is the market in your area?

Some chefs own their own farms that supply most of the vegetables for their

restaurants. Do you think you can support a farm from the income from your

practice?

 

 

 

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 12:51 PM, carlstimson <carlstimson wrote:

 

> Hi,

>

> I'm considering the different ways of setting up a pharmacy and I had

> the idea of setting up something different than the usual raw,

> granule, powder, or pill options.

>

> I'm wondering if it's possible to set up a pharmacy using primarily

> (i.e. over 50%) local medicinals.

>

> " Local " is a relative word. For starters, let's just say a local

> medicinal is something that wasn't shipped from across the sea, but

> using substances as close to home as possible being ideal.

>

> I'm wondering if this kind of pharmacy would be economical, extensive

> enough to do TCM herbalism, and easy enough to supply without an

> extreme amount of effort.

>

> I'd love to hear about pros and cons from anyone with experience

> trying to do something like this!

>

> Thanks,

>

> Carl

>

>

>

 

 

 

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Gerry,

 

 

 

I agree that growing an herb in a different environment does not eliminate

all of its medicinal attributes. BTW, who says this? However I do think it

is well documented in both Chinese and Western agricultural that growing

environments (hence location) can seriously impact the ratio of

constituents, hence produce radical changes in the properties of the

medicinals. This is one reason that the same herb grown in different regions

in China will have different properties. To assume that one can just grow

any Chinese herb in the West and have the same medicinal action is

foolhardy.

 

 

 

Many Western " growers " have no idea about the intricacies that go into

properly growing Chinese herbs. Many think they can just throw some seeds

into the ground and presto.

 

 

 

Many of our Chinese herbs come from professional growers. They are not

messing around. I have spent a bit of time with some of these people in

China. They not only often have PHD's in their field (specific medicinal

agriculture) , but they pay attention to so many details, making one's head

spin, so as to mimic the natural environment that specific herbs are

traditionally grown in. Many have million dollar facilities making sure that

proper quality standards are met. For example, in one organic " tie pi shi

hu " farm I visited they had to grow ling zhi on special logs, let the logs

decompose for years so as to use this specific organic matter to form a base

(soil) for the shi hu. They not only bought the land directly under the

original cliffs that the shi hu grows on, but have sophisticated measures to

control the light and humidity to mimic these conditions. I could go on and

on with details, which personally I found very interesting. Can one ignore

all these factors? Of course. But IMHO such products fall very short.

 

 

 

My point is not to try such an endeavor, but one must study thoroughly,

probably with some experts in China, to really figure out how to grow the

herbs (and harvest) them correctly. Furthermore, most of herbs go through

some processing to get them ready for " our " use. This also is an important

(often overlooked step in the west) that will change the nature and

properties of the medicinals. Many herbs that we get are already soaked, dry

fried etc.

 

 

 

Furthermore, I would have to see studies on Western herbs that say that

environment does not change the clinical effectiveness or more precisely the

ratio of (active) constituents. Soil, water, light etc are basic factors

that we know effect the ratios of constituents. Even within a single field

of plants, plants on the outside of the field, versus the inside, will have

drastically different ratios of their active constituents due to differences

in watering patterns (if this factor is not regulated).

 

 

 

Do we really think that the mere seed itself is all that matters to create

medicinal effective herbs?

 

 

 

My 2 cents.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Gerry Kuo

Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:25 AM

 

Re: Local herbalism

 

 

 

The most commonly heard myth is that once you move the herb out of its

native environment, it will loose its medicinal attributes. Obviously not

true for most western herbs, maybe you can try Chinese herbs, too. So if you

can create enough demands, then definitely you will find supplier. Since you

know Goji berries become a new big thing in the US for the past 2 or 3

years, I heard people living in Castro Valley, CA saying he saw fresh Goji

berries being sold on the farmer's market.

 

What's the most commonly used herbs? How much do you use regularly? How big

is the market in your area?

Some chefs own their own farms that supply most of the vegetables for their

restaurants. Do you think you can support a farm from the income from your

practice?

 

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 12:51 PM, carlstimson <carlstimson

<carlstimson%40gmail.com> > wrote:

 

> Hi,

>

> I'm considering the different ways of setting up a pharmacy and I had

> the idea of setting up something different than the usual raw,

> granule, powder, or pill options.

>

> I'm wondering if it's possible to set up a pharmacy using primarily

> (i.e. over 50%) local medicinals.

>

> " Local " is a relative word. For starters, let's just say a local

> medicinal is something that wasn't shipped from across the sea, but

> using substances as close to home as possible being ideal.

>

> I'm wondering if this kind of pharmacy would be economical, extensive

> enough to do TCM herbalism, and easy enough to supply without an

> extreme amount of effort.

>

> I'd love to hear about pros and cons from anyone with experience

> trying to do something like this!

>

> Thanks,

>

> Carl

>

>

>

 

 

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Jason:

Always a pleasure to see your scientific point of view, and it makes me

thinking, too. I'm glad to hear there are still people care about growing

Chinese herbs in China. It should be a no-brainer, but after hearing so many

horrible stories about Chinese products, and how poor the farmers are there,

many times I wonder how good is the quality of the herbs I bought here.

Totally agree that preparing the herbs is essential, many herbs are

poisonous and require proper preparation. All TCM students in China are

required to take the class of " Pao Zhi " , preparing herbs. Since fresh herbs

are rare here in the US, it's not a required class. But a home gardener

maybe can start with herbs that only require drying?

Overall, I think it's important to know your herbs, growing it is also

a way to know more about the herb you use. True, the territory is important,

but Californians did not stop growing the grapes and are making wonderful

wine today. For this reason, I encourage anyone who wants to grow Chinese

herbs in the back yard do it just like myself, and study study study.

Obviously I will be the first one trying the herb I grow myself, and it's

the only way I will learn how to use my herb.

 

Gerry

 

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:33 AM, <

> wrote:

 

> Gerry,

>

> I agree that growing an herb in a different environment does not eliminate

> all of its medicinal attributes. BTW, who says this? However I do think it

> is well documented in both Chinese and Western agricultural that growing

> environments (hence location) can seriously impact the ratio of

> constituents, hence produce radical changes in the properties of the

> medicinals. This is one reason that the same herb grown in different

> regions

> in China will have different properties. To assume that one can just grow

> any Chinese herb in the West and have the same medicinal action is

> foolhardy.

>

> Many Western " growers " have no idea about the intricacies that go into

> properly growing Chinese herbs. Many think they can just throw some seeds

> into the ground and presto.

>

> Many of our Chinese herbs come from professional growers. They are not

> messing around. I have spent a bit of time with some of these people in

> China. They not only often have PHD's in their field (specific medicinal

> agriculture) , but they pay attention to so many details, making one's head

> spin, so as to mimic the natural environment that specific herbs are

> traditionally grown in. Many have million dollar facilities making sure

> that

> proper quality standards are met. For example, in one organic " tie pi shi

> hu " farm I visited they had to grow ling zhi on special logs, let the logs

> decompose for years so as to use this specific organic matter to form a

> base

> (soil) for the shi hu. They not only bought the land directly under the

> original cliffs that the shi hu grows on, but have sophisticated measures

> to

> control the light and humidity to mimic these conditions. I could go on and

> on with details, which personally I found very interesting. Can one ignore

> all these factors? Of course. But IMHO such products fall very short.

>

> My point is not to try such an endeavor, but one must study thoroughly,

> probably with some experts in China, to really figure out how to grow the

> herbs (and harvest) them correctly. Furthermore, most of herbs go through

> some processing to get them ready for " our " use. This also is an important

> (often overlooked step in the west) that will change the nature and

> properties of the medicinals. Many herbs that we get are already soaked,

> dry

> fried etc.

>

> Furthermore, I would have to see studies on Western herbs that say that

> environment does not change the clinical effectiveness or more precisely

> the

> ratio of (active) constituents. Soil, water, light etc are basic factors

> that we know effect the ratios of constituents. Even within a single field

> of plants, plants on the outside of the field, versus the inside, will have

> drastically different ratios of their active constituents due to

> differences

> in watering patterns (if this factor is not regulated).

>

> Do we really think that the mere seed itself is all that matters to create

> medicinal effective herbs?

>

> My 2 cents.

>

> -

 

>

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No, I don't think I can support a farm with my market. I'm pretty small

time at this point. I'm looking to take advantage of existing

businesses and products to formulate a pharmacy that consists of

primarily local medicinals.

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Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better

understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native

habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a

group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese herbs

in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically

tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will

take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High

quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the Himalayas.

I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub but

no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates.

 

Frances Gander, L.Ac.

Athens, Ohio

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I found goji berries/gou qi zi growing wild in Taos, N.M. at an

altitude of 7000 feet during an herb seminar/herb walk I taught there

four years ago. Tasted wonderful, but didn't check for constituents.

 

 

 

 

On Feb 4, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Frances L. Gander wrote:

 

> Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better

> understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native

> habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a

> group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese

> herbs

> in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically

> tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will

> take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High

> quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the

> Himalayas.

> I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub

> but

> no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates.

>

> Frances Gander, L.Ac.

> Athens, Ohio

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Interesting discussion, everyone -

 

While I was a member of student council at PCOM-San Diego, I had explored the

possibility of starting an herb garden as a school project.  I found sources for

many herbs at the Berkeley Botanical Garden, which has a section dedicated to

Chinese herbs, and at ACTCM in San Francisco.  What the botanist in Berkeley

told me was that they were able to grow the herbs, but the climate was not warm

enough for most of them to flower.  It was her opinion that the warmer climate

in southern California would suit most of the herbs much better.

 

Flowering and fruiting are the signs of optimal health for a plant.  When a

plant is distressed, it will drop buds before they open, or drop fruit before it

matures, or produce seeds that will not sprout.  It is fairly common for as

simple a stress as insufficient water to cause this.  Likewise, too much water

can also cause this, as can abrupt weather changes and other events.  It is not

much different from people having reproductive difficulties as a result of poor

health.

 

Ultimately, we did not start the PCOM garden because we did not have land for

one.  While I think growing herbs is a wonderful project for any herbalist,

because it helps us connect with our medicine better, anyone considering doing

so should know that there are many factors that go into growing herbs that are

potent.  These include good stock (seeds or cuttings from plants that are

healthy, medicinally potent and not contaminated), proper climate, planting and

harvesting in the proper seasons for each species, and soil constituency. 

 

Of these, I think soil constituency is probably the element most overlooked, and

the hardest one to replicate.  The minerals and microorganisms present in a

plant's native soil contribute greatly to the nature and properties which plants

develop as they grow.  Take a plant out of its native soil, and you ultimately

end up with a different plant.  Sometimes this is apparent visually, for

instance, the leaves might change to a different color, or the rate of growth

might speed up or slow down, or it might grow more compact or more spindly.  Or

it might be susceptible to diseases it would not encounter in its native soil. 

It is difficult to know exactly what elements in the soil contribute to the

potency and health of a plant, and in which ways.

 

This is not to say I think it is futile to grow herbs locally.  I think it is a

wonderful practice, but the end products might not behave medicinally the same

ways as those grown in their own native environment.  I would love to see

comparisons in medicinal potency made between herbs grown locally and those

grown in China (or other native habitats).  Is there anyone already doing this? 

Any of our US herb manufacturers?

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

1770 E. Villa Drive, Suite 5

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Tue, 2/3/09, Gerry Kuo <gerrrykuo wrote:

Gerry Kuo <gerrrykuo

Re: Local herbalism

 

Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 11:31 PM

 

Jason:

Always a pleasure to see your scientific point of view, and it makes me

thinking, too. I'm glad to hear there are still people care about growing

Chinese herbs in China. It should be a no-brainer, but after hearing so many

horrible stories about Chinese products, and how poor the farmers are there,

many times I wonder how good is the quality of the herbs I bought here.

Totally agree that preparing the herbs is essential, many herbs are

poisonous and require proper preparation. All TCM students in China are

required to take the class of " Pao Zhi " , preparing herbs. Since fresh

herbs

are rare here in the US, it's not a required class. But a home gardener

maybe can start with herbs that only require drying?

Overall, I think it's important to know your herbs, growing it is also

a way to know more about the herb you use. True, the territory is important,

but Californians did not stop growing the grapes and are making wonderful

wine today. For this reason, I encourage anyone who wants to grow Chinese

herbs in the back yard do it just like myself, and study study study.

Obviously I will be the first one trying the herb I grow myself, and it's

the only way I will learn how to use my herb.

 

Gerry

 

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:33 AM, <

> wrote:

 

> Gerry,

>

> I agree that growing an herb in a different environment does not eliminate

> all of its medicinal attributes. BTW, who says this? However I do think it

> is well documented in both Chinese and Western agricultural that growing

> environments (hence location) can seriously impact the ratio of

> constituents, hence produce radical changes in the properties of the

> medicinals. This is one reason that the same herb grown in different

> regions

> in China will have different properties. To assume that one can just grow

> any Chinese herb in the West and have the same medicinal action is

> foolhardy.

>

> Many Western " growers " have no idea about the intricacies that

go into

> properly growing Chinese herbs. Many think they can just throw some seeds

> into the ground and presto.

>

> Many of our Chinese herbs come from professional growers. They are not

> messing around. I have spent a bit of time with some of these people in

> China. They not only often have PHD's in their field (specific

medicinal

> agriculture) , but they pay attention to so many details, making one's

head

> spin, so as to mimic the natural environment that specific herbs are

> traditionally grown in. Many have million dollar facilities making sure

> that

> proper quality standards are met. For example, in one organic " tie pi

shi

> hu " farm I visited they had to grow ling zhi on special logs, let the

logs

> decompose for years so as to use this specific organic matter to form a

> base

> (soil) for the shi hu. They not only bought the land directly under the

> original cliffs that the shi hu grows on, but have sophisticated measures

> to

> control the light and humidity to mimic these conditions. I could go on

and

> on with details, which personally I found very interesting. Can one ignore

> all these factors? Of course. But IMHO such products fall very short.

>

> My point is not to try such an endeavor, but one must study thoroughly,

> probably with some experts in China, to really figure out how to grow the

> herbs (and harvest) them correctly. Furthermore, most of herbs go through

> some processing to get them ready for " our " use. This also is an

important

> (often overlooked step in the west) that will change the nature and

> properties of the medicinals. Many herbs that we get are already soaked,

> dry

> fried etc.

>

> Furthermore, I would have to see studies on Western herbs that say that

> environment does not change the clinical effectiveness or more precisely

> the

> ratio of (active) constituents. Soil, water, light etc are basic factors

> that we know effect the ratios of constituents. Even within a single field

> of plants, plants on the outside of the field, versus the inside, will

have

> drastically different ratios of their active constituents due to

> differences

> in watering patterns (if this factor is not regulated).

>

> Do we really think that the mere seed itself is all that matters to create

> medicinal effective herbs?

>

> My 2 cents.

>

> -

 

>

 

---

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a

practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum.

 

 

 

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I'd be surprised if this hasn't come up on this group before, but Peggy

Schaeffer and Jean Gibblette are doing some pretty phenomenal work orchestrating

the growth of Chinese medicinals domestically.

http://www.chinesemedicinalherbfarm.com/

I use several of their herbs clinically including Chai Hu, Bai Zhi, Cang Er Zi,

Bo He, Huo Xiang, Zi Su Ye, and He Huan Hua and consistently get the results I'm

looking for. Being as aromatic as most of these are one needn't apply

technologies other than basic LO (Luddite Organoleptics) analysis to assess

their potency.

One of the challenges of their plant offerings is that some of what they are

growing won't be ready for another 2 years or more.

 

I believe Bill Schoenbart is doing a comparative chromatography study with

domestically produced Dan Shen. Can you verify that Bill?

 

There is a new text book that Roy Upton's American Herbal Pharmacopoeia that

covers criteria and methods for labratory analysis of herbal medicines. I don't

know how much it digs into the TCM materia medica though.

Just a few loosely connected threads.

 

Ben

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I've grown saplings from Peggy Schaeffer's farm in Petaluma.

The herbs are much much more potent and alive, when they are harvested

fresh.

The problem is of course space and time (growth and harvest) limitations.

I grew dan shen for 2 years and it looked like true cinnabar when I pulled

the roots.

 

You can also buy dried herbs and tinctures from them as well.

They are more expensive, but it may be worth it in your practice.

Highfallsgardens.net is a collective of these organic growers from around

the country.

We should definitely support them.

 

K

 

 

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:22 PM, <mns07 wrote:

 

> Here is a link to a farm in upstate NY that is growing Chinese

> herbs. Of particular interest may be the " Newsletter & Publications "

> link as well as the "

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For my DAOM research, I am comparing samples of Dan Shen from Hong

Kong, China, and Taiwan with Dan Shen grown at the organic herb farm

in Petaluma. The local organic samples routinely have higher levels of

tanshinones and salvianolic acid, compounds that have shown

therapeutic effects in dozens of studies. This is just one study, but

it is intriguing.

 

Herbs don't know if they are growing in China or not. They DO know if

they are have ideal or poor climate, soil conditions, cultivation

techniques and latitude. Properly grown herbs will thrive in this

country if given the right conditions.

 

- Bill

 

 

, " Frances L. Gander "

<threetreasures wrote:

>

> Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better

> understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native

> habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a

> group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese herbs

> in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically

> tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will

> take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High

> quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the

Himalayas.

> I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub but

> no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates.

>

> Frances Gander, L.Ac.

> Athens, Ohio

>

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Frances,

 

A couple of points about growing Gou Qi Zi:

 

1. There is a variety that is grown for the leaves, so they can be

used as a vegetable. That variety is not inclined to fruit.

 

2. I have seen good fruitings of Gou Qi Zi at altitudes near sea

level, both in California and Oregon. They seem to like a nice hot dry

summer.

 

3. Do you know Cindy at Plant It Herbs? She is in your area, and has

lots of experience growing Chinese herbs. Maybe she has grown Gou Qi

Zi? Here is a link in case you don't know her:

 

http://www.plantitherbs.com/

 

- Bill

 

 

, " Frances L. Gander "

<threetreasures wrote:

>

> Andy Ellis has contributed a lot of study and hard work to better

> understand this matter of growing herbs outside their usual native

> habitat and their relative clinical effectiveness. He works with a

> group of U.S. growers who are experimentally growing some Chinese herbs

> in different climates & soils. Only a few have been pharmacologically

> tested with their counterparts in China. It is an endeavor that will

> take many decades to provide answers for western practitioners. High

> quality goji requires very high altitude conditions, e.g. the

Himalayas.

> I tried growing it in the midwest and got an attractive woody shrub but

> no berries. So it's a complex issue, as Jason indicates.

>

> Frances Gander, L.Ac.

> Athens, Ohio

>

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, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> For my DAOM research, I am comparing samples of Dan Shen from Hong

> Kong, China, and Taiwan with Dan Shen grown at the organic herb farm

> in Petaluma. The local organic samples routinely have higher levels of

> tanshinones and salvianolic acid, compounds that have shown

> therapeutic effects in dozens of studies. This is just one study, but

> it is intriguing.

 

Bill,

 

You should contact Dr. Zhao Zhongzhen of Hong Kong Baptist University.

Dr. Zhao is one of the world's top experts on herbal pharmacy, and

his grad students have an entire lab area devoted to research similar

to what you are describing. They have hundreds of boxes, each

containing 100 samples of the same medicinal (including Dan Shen) from

markets throughout China, and I'm sure that they would be interested

to compare data with you. They essentially analyze 100 different

samples of the same herb (ideally with information on growing area,

harvest season, etc) and compare the compounds within. Very

ground-breaking, top-level academic research, and they'd love to hear

data about the same species grown in the US. Contact me off list for

Dr. Zhao's email.

 

Good posts, btw.

 

Eric Brand

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Eric,

 

Very cool research. I'll contact you off-list.

 

- Bill

 

 

 

, " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus wrote:

>

> , " bill_schoenbart "

> <plantmed2@> wrote:

> >

> > For my DAOM research, I am comparing samples of Dan Shen from Hong

> > Kong, China, and Taiwan with Dan Shen grown at the organic herb farm

> > in Petaluma. The local organic samples routinely have higher levels of

> > tanshinones and salvianolic acid, compounds that have shown

> > therapeutic effects in dozens of studies. This is just one study, but

> > it is intriguing.

>

> Bill,

>

> You should contact Dr. Zhao Zhongzhen of Hong Kong Baptist University.

> Dr. Zhao is one of the world's top experts on herbal pharmacy, and

> his grad students have an entire lab area devoted to research similar

> to what you are describing. They have hundreds of boxes, each

> containing 100 samples of the same medicinal (including Dan Shen) from

> markets throughout China, and I'm sure that they would be interested

> to compare data with you. They essentially analyze 100 different

> samples of the same herb (ideally with information on growing area,

> harvest season, etc) and compare the compounds within. Very

> ground-breaking, top-level academic research, and they'd love to hear

> data about the same species grown in the US. Contact me off list for

> Dr. Zhao's email.

>

> Good posts, btw.

>

> Eric Brand

>

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