Guest guest Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Greg et all: > I think this is an extremely important point, especially now that it > seems everyone in the west is getting so excited about studying > Shang Han and Jin Gui (I love these books too, and my PhD is > centered around them). Jason mentioned that his friend Chip Chase in > Boulder, who is highly regarded by many and has been in practice for > many years, has been unable to make certain Shanghan formulas work > well in Boulder. Yet he gets good results with other methods (I'm > not saying he doesn't use any Shanghan/Jin Gui stuff). If one gets > over enthusiastic about a particular style, becomes dogmatic about > it, and tries to force it to work (I've recently heard of people who > after taking a Shanghan seminar decide they will only use Shanghan/ > Jingui formulas), at best it will be effective some of the time, at > worst it may harm patients. IMHO, what is required is a more > flexible, thoughtful, and careful approach, that is refined over > time to meet the needs of our respective patients, location, > weather, and season. As the translator of a book about to come out on " jing fang " I would have to say I deeply share your concerns. That there is a bit of a bandwagon effect, and turf building around the rallying cry of " jing fang for ever " , that it is the new cool thing. That being said, I do think this stuff is great, and it is very useful in the clinic especially as the formulas are small and because of that it is easier to grasp their directionally. Learning to use them helps us to understand the perspective of the SHL, and in learning it we hopefully will come to know when it is the appropriate tool to apply and when it is not. Eclectic is not careless, or " sui bian. " It is learning to use different lenses with skill. > > I'm tempted to go to Chengdu to study with a Fire God doctor, learn > how to use 200g of fuzi in one day (one case study the doc uses 500g > per day!!), and maybe even one day have the guts to try it out if > the situation presents itself. But I also like to study with my > teacher here, using 0.5g of Wu Zhu Yu per day, or 3g of Da Huang Tan > per day. Then it's a matter of flexibly drawing from your knowledge > and applying what you think is most appropriate for each patient > during each season, etc. Oh, that sounds like fun. Do you know anyone there? Want some company? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Greg, Michael and all a few points first, let's remember that the " fire gods " sect is not representative of Shang Han Za Bing Lun tradition nor the Jing Fang style of course, being dogmatic about anything is risky and completely different from being dedicated to it anyone wanting to incorporate medicinals like fuzi should learn from and shadow someone trained and experienced in it's proper use to just start playing with it is beyond irresponsible " the next cool thing " ? I hope so - but not as a fad This is Chinese Herbal Medicine - so let's face it...the people in this user group tend to be more interested, skilled and experienced in the proper application of herb formulas But the average practitioner has plenty to learn -- and deeper understanding of this system and these formulas would make the vast majority of practitioners much better. does it end with these formulas? I can't say out of the 314 formulas from the Shang Han Za Bing Lun, I wouldn't pretend to be proficient in the application of even 50 If you have a PhD centered around SHZBL, you probably know all 314 and have a better sense of limitations and areas where they don't apply How does one become better trained after licensure? Most herbal seminars are extended infomercials for someone's line of products of monster formulas What Greg said is best....continue to learn from your teacher and watch it done right - get trained Stephen Woodley LAc -- www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Hi Michael, No, I don't know any fire god docs personally, hehe, but I think it would be possible to find one/some to study with if serious about doing it. I'm tempted, but not sure when I would find the time. Besides, winter is probably better, although there are some cases in this book where they use massive doses of fuzi in the middle of summer, so who knows. Maybe next winter can try, and would love some company if you'd care to go with. Best, Greg , Michael Max <michael wrote: > > Greg et all: > > > I think this is an extremely important point, especially now that it > > seems everyone in the west is getting so excited about studying > > Shang Han and Jin Gui (I love these books too, and my PhD is > > centered around them). Jason mentioned that his friend Chip Chase in > > Boulder, who is highly regarded by many and has been in practice for > > many years, has been unable to make certain Shanghan formulas work > > well in Boulder. Yet he gets good results with other methods (I'm > > not saying he doesn't use any Shanghan/Jin Gui stuff). If one gets > > over enthusiastic about a particular style, becomes dogmatic about > > it, and tries to force it to work (I've recently heard of people who > > after taking a Shanghan seminar decide they will only use Shanghan/ > > Jingui formulas), at best it will be effective some of the time, at > > worst it may harm patients. IMHO, what is required is a more > > flexible, thoughtful, and careful approach, that is refined over > > time to meet the needs of our respective patients, location, > > weather, and season. > > As the translator of a book about to come out on " jing fang " I would > have to say I deeply share your concerns. That there is a bit of a > bandwagon effect, and turf building around the rallying cry of " jing > fang for ever " , that it is the new cool thing. > That being said, I do think this stuff is great, and it is very useful > in the clinic especially as the formulas are small and because of that > it is easier to grasp their directionally. Learning to use them helps > us to understand the perspective of the SHL, and in learning it we > hopefully will come to know when it is the appropriate tool to apply > and when it is not. Eclectic is not careless, or " sui bian. " It is > learning to use different lenses with skill. > > > > > I'm tempted to go to Chengdu to study with a Fire God doctor, learn > > how to use 200g of fuzi in one day (one case study the doc uses 500g > > per day!!), and maybe even one day have the guts to try it out if > > the situation presents itself. But I also like to study with my > > teacher here, using 0.5g of Wu Zhu Yu per day, or 3g of Da Huang Tan > > per day. Then it's a matter of flexibly drawing from your knowledge > > and applying what you think is most appropriate for each patient > > during each season, etc. > > Oh, that sounds like fun. Do you know anyone there? Want some company? > > Michael > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Hi Stephen, Right, I didn't mean to imply that Fire God is representative, but it is certainly a branch of SHZBL/Jingfang study, albeit rather extreme. As for me, I wish you were right about the PhD meaning mastery of the subject, but I am hardly an expert in any area of CM, including SHZBL. I've got my foot in the door, that's about all. I certainly don't know all SHZBL formulas, and am only proficient in a small percentage of them, really. Give me another 20+ years and we'll see, hehe. Greg > > Greg, Michael and all > > a few points > first, let's remember that the " fire gods " sect is not > representative of Shang Han Za Bing Lun tradition nor the Jing > Fang style > > of course, being dogmatic about anything is risky and completely > different from being dedicated to it > anyone wanting to incorporate medicinals like fuzi should learn > from and shadow someone trained and experienced in it's proper > use > to just start playing with it is beyond irresponsible > > " the next cool thing " ? > I hope so - but not as a fad > > This is Chinese Herbal Medicine - so let's face it...the people > in this user group tend to be more interested, skilled and > experienced in the proper application of > herb formulas > But the average practitioner has plenty to learn -- and deeper > understanding of this system and these formulas would make the > vast majority of practitioners much better. > > does it end with these formulas? > I can't say > out of the 314 formulas from the Shang Han Za Bing Lun, I > wouldn't pretend to be proficient in the application of even 50 > If you have a PhD centered around SHZBL, you probably know all > 314 and have a better sense of limitations and areas where they > don't apply > > How does one become better trained after licensure? > Most herbal seminars are extended infomercials for someone's line > of products of monster formulas > > What Greg said is best....continue to learn from your teacher and > watch it done right - get trained > > Stephen Woodley LAc > -- > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders > wherever you are > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hi Greg Mastery is ellusive...but you are there in the thick of it getting advanced training, so you are ahead of the curb Good luck in your studies and some day we'll be coming to your classes so you can share what you're learning Stephen Woodley LAc --- www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hi Stephen, That's kind of you to say, but we will see. Maybe I'm ahead of the curve (or maybe not), but even after 15 years of study and practice I feel apprehensive about teaching CM. I know there are people with less experience than me out there teaching, and some may even puff themselves up in an attempt to look authoritative, but I try to maintain my humility, and am not ready to burst onto the scene and into the lecture circuit. That said, I do enjoy teaching, do some here part time, and maybe at some point I'll have a go. There have been some invitations. If I do, it won't be anything of " mine " that I'll be teaching- just passing on knowledge. But I guess that's what most teachers are doing, right? Best wishes, Greg , " stephen woodley " <learntcm wrote: > > Hi Greg > Mastery is ellusive...but you are there in the thick of it > getting advanced training, so you are ahead of the curb > Good luck in your studies and some day we'll be coming to your > classes so you can share what you're learning > > Stephen Woodley LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Regardless of our experience, I think we should teach what we know, because everyone knows something that we don't know. I think that mastery of simplicity is the essence, not accumulation of volumes of information. 15 years is like a lifetime of learning relative to those who are just a few years out, but not very long compared to a full lifetime of learning the medicine Even if that life time is a short one When I think of those who started at 8 and are practicing into their 80s, it makes me hope that reincarnation is possible. Hopefully, at 80, we'll still be like an 8 year old at heart, just much more refined in the way our Qi moves. If we quote our teachers and beg forgiveness to the ancestors for our mistakes, maybe we'll live to a ripe old age with our fingers and senses still intact. If we remember that the power that comes through us is not our own, but the power of the medicine, then we'll stay humble If we stay humble, then we'll learn from those who look like they don't have anything to teach or those who have so much to share, but are too humble to do so or our masters will pass a lineage down through us and then we'll be a stepping stone across a 1000 Li garden K On 4/15/09, Greg A. Livingston <drlivingston wrote: > Hi Stephen, > > That's kind of you to say, but we will see. Maybe I'm ahead of the curve (or > maybe not), but even after 15 years of study and practice I feel > apprehensive about teaching CM. I know there are people with less experience > than me out there teaching, and some may even puff themselves up in an > attempt to look authoritative, but I try to maintain my humility, and am not > ready to burst onto the scene and into the lecture circuit. That said, I do > enjoy teaching, do some here part time, and maybe at some point I'll have a > go. There have been some invitations. If I do, it won't be anything of > " mine " that I'll be teaching- just passing on knowledge. But I guess that's > what most teachers are doing, right? > > Best wishes, > > Greg > > , " stephen woodley " <learntcm > wrote: >> >> Hi Greg >> Mastery is ellusive...but you are there in the thick of it >> getting advanced training, so you are ahead of the curb >> Good luck in your studies and some day we'll be coming to your >> classes so you can share what you're learning >> >> Stephen Woodley LAc > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health 3280 Adeline St. Berkeley CA 94703 510/ 387-8678 TCM Review director www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 We have a saying in Judaism, Greg, that " if one knows aleph, one is required to teach aleph " , and that by teaching, we learn even more. My knowledge base grew tremendously by teaching, even though my skills were less than I would have liked when I started. On Apr 16, 2009, at 9:10 AM, wrote: > > > Regardless of our experience, I think we should teach what we know, > because everyone knows something that we don't know. > I think that mastery of simplicity is the essence, > not accumulation of volumes of information. > > 15 years is like a lifetime of learning > relative to those who are just a few years out, > but not very long compared to a full lifetime of learning the medicine > Even if that life time is a short one > > When I think of those who started at 8 and are practicing into their > 80s, > it makes me hope that reincarnation is possible. > Hopefully, at 80, we'll still be like an 8 year old at heart, > just much more refined in the way our Qi moves. > > If we quote our teachers and beg forgiveness to the ancestors for > our mistakes, > maybe we'll live to a ripe old age with our fingers and senses still > intact. > If we remember that the power that comes through us is not our own, > but the power of the medicine, then we'll stay humble > > If we stay humble, then we'll learn from those who look like they > don't have anything to teach > or those who have so much to share, but are too humble to do so > or our masters will pass a lineage down through us > and then we'll be a stepping stone across a 1000 Li garden > > K > > On 4/15/09, Greg A. Livingston <drlivingston wrote: > > Hi Stephen, > > > > That's kind of you to say, but we will see. Maybe I'm ahead of the > curve (or > > maybe not), but even after 15 years of study and practice I feel > > apprehensive about teaching CM. I know there are people with less > experience > > than me out there teaching, and some may even puff themselves up > in an > > attempt to look authoritative, but I try to maintain my humility, > and am not > > ready to burst onto the scene and into the lecture circuit. That > said, I do > > enjoy teaching, do some here part time, and maybe at some point > I'll have a > > go. There have been some invitations. If I do, it won't be > anything of > > " mine " that I'll be teaching- just passing on knowledge. But I > guess that's > > what most teachers are doing, right? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Greg > > > > , " stephen woodley " > <learntcm > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Greg > >> Mastery is ellusive...but you are there in the thick of it > >> getting advanced training, so you are ahead of the curb > >> Good luck in your studies and some day we'll be coming to your > >> classes so you can share what you're learning > >> > >> Stephen Woodley LAc > > > > > > -- > > Turtle Island Integrative Health > 3280 Adeline St. Berkeley CA 94703 > 510/ 387-8678 > > TCM Review director > www.tcmreview.com > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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