Dose of herbs prescribed to Westerner in Beijing

[Guest guest]

Hello All

 

Many insightful comments – most are fairly commonly held

 

At the risk of being too contrarian –

 

 

What are the arguments FOR following a lineage?

 

Of course, any lineage has areas of strengths and weaknesses…the

areas of strength are often where the most impressive results

come from.

 

We should remember that every system within Chinese medicine (or

subsystem if you prefer) has it’s own vision of physiology,

pathophysiology, pulse analysis and use of herbs. I would posit

that if we try to look at one system through the lenses of

another, we will come up short. Does looking at pulses through

the Li Shi Zhen system lead one to correct Nan Jing decisions?

No.

 

So, to dedicate to a style allows one to fully embrace and

therefore think in the manner of that lineage, with all of it’s

power and shortcomings.

 

 

The thinking of any tradition is embodied in the formulas that

were written by those that adhered to it. As we all know, this

thinking changed through time. When we try to know 300 formulas

from 300 authors, we are trying to think 300 different ways. The

glaring weaknesses of this approach are: can one think in 300

different ways? Only with limited success, I believe. What skills

are required to discern which system to apply at any given

moment? Now I think like Han dynasty, next like Jin-Yuan oh now I

need to think like late 20^th century.

 

So, instead, the practitioner is limited by ability to understand

many different views of health and disease, the different

thinking of many dynasties and one’s ability to pick the right

dynastic vision to employ versus 10 minutes ago. One could argue

that this approach is more likely to lead to limitations and

occasional poor treatments.

 

 

One of my teachers used to be amused by her Western students. She

once told me, “Americans are mostly interested in cut and paste…â€

She then recommended a book by Chogyam Trungpa - [1]Cutting

Through Spiritual Materialism – it is best to dedicate to a path,

instead of thinking we are good enough to cut and paste.

 

 

As was pointed out, the Wen Bing masters first became proficient

in Shang Han Lun and only then added something. So, to give the

other side… as Chinese medicine is in it’s infancy in the west,

the best path for Westerners is to dedicate to a single style and

find true proficiency.

 

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

 

References

 

1.

http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Through-Spiritual-Materialism-Shambhala/dp/1590306\

392/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1240447460 & sr=8-1

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

 

 

, " " wrote:

 

>.......As important as the original texts are, they are still fairly cryptic to

most

> people. Greg L. was telling me the other day that his SHL teacher said the

> best way to learn it is to start with the modern commentaries then work your

> backwards to the original text. If Greg is listening, maybe he could

> elaborate on this idea. Unfortunately commentaries and case studies are

> what seem to be lacking the most in the West.

 

This teacher was saying that at some point it's valuable and interesting to read

the original text without any commentaries to see what you make of it yourself.

But her point was that to get to the level that you can do that meaningfully

requires a serious amount of scholarship and clinical experience, and that

begins with reading what others have said. Since the modern commentaries, such

as those found in textbooks, are pretty easy to read and understand, you can of

course start with that. Once that is understood you can start to read older

commentaries. I'm not so sure she really meant that one should do this in

reverse chronological order, but that's sort of how it sounded. I personally

jump around, reading things from various time periods. I usually just pick a

section and then read everything about it in the various books I have, paying no

attention to chronology. However, when I look at the source text I still don't

have incredible revelations or anything. I tend to just remember what others

said about it. I'm not there yet.... hehe

 

Greg

 

 

 

>

>

>

> Yes 40+ years! I have seen people come up with an idea and then start

> teaching it within about 4 months. J - I guess the West and East have major

> differences.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:41 PM

>

> Re: Dose of herbs prescribed to Westerner in Beijing

>

>

Jason,

> As we know, Chinese medicine is not a religion, it is a constant

> exploration into the nature of life, medicine and health/disease. It

> is no longer the era of ancient vs. modern formula schools, five phase

> vs. eight principle.

>

> I just feel, like Doug, that study of classical medical

> literature is very weak in the West, and these have been the

> traditional foundations of study in Chinese medicine. We are no less

> obligated than Chinese physicians to study these texts, and with

> teachers who are experts in them. As you pointed out in an earlier

> post, Liu He-jian studied the classical literature for forty years

> before developing his own theories.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Stephen. I read your post a few times, and altho I may not grasp the broad

totality of what you wrote, it made me think a few things. Of course everyone in

this field would like to be 100% effective, utilizing past and present models,

cm wm expertise. But I also came into this for a teacher for myself, my life, to

learn ways of coping and understanding.

 So, I had hoped, and found to some extent, now must incorporate, in my life,

the lessons that privately make a needle or a bag of plant matter, the turning

point for someone's suffering. In any trade, there are skilled and then blessed

operators. This is a whole, spritual medicine, it heals me as much as anyone who

benefits from what I've learned. That's the fun part.

 

--- On Wed, 4/22/09, stephen woodley <learntcm wrote:

 

stephen woodley <learntcm

Dose of herbs prescribed to Westerner in Beijing

,

Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 9:05 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello All

 

 

 

Many insightful comments – most are fairly commonly held

 

 

 

At the risk of being too contrarian –

 

 

 

What are the arguments FOR following a lineage?

 

 

 

Of course, any lineage has areas of strengths and weaknesses…the

 

areas of strength are often where the most impressive results

 

come from.

 

 

 

We should remember that every system within Chinese medicine (or

 

subsystem if you prefer) has it’s own vision of physiology,

 

pathophysiology, pulse analysis and use of herbs. I would posit

 

that if we try to look at one system through the lenses of

 

another, we will come up short. Does looking at pulses through

 

the Li Shi Zhen system lead one to correct Nan Jing decisions?

 

No.

 

 

 

So, to dedicate to a style allows one to fully embrace and

 

therefore think in the manner of that lineage, with all of it’s

 

power and shortcomings.

 

 

 

The thinking of any tradition is embodied in the formulas that

 

were written by those that adhered to it. As we all know, this

 

thinking changed through time. When we try to know 300 formulas

 

from 300 authors, we are trying to think 300 different ways. The

 

glaring weaknesses of this approach are: can one think in 300

 

different ways? Only with limited success, I believe. What skills

 

are required to discern which system to apply at any given

 

moment? Now I think like Han dynasty, next like Jin-Yuan oh now I

 

need to think like late 20^th century.

 

 

 

So, instead, the practitioner is limited by ability to understand

 

many different views of health and disease, the different

 

thinking of many dynasties and one’s ability to pick the right

 

dynastic vision to employ versus 10 minutes ago. One could argue

 

that this approach is more likely to lead to limitations and

 

occasional poor treatments.

 

 

 

One of my teachers used to be amused by her Western students. She

 

once told me, “Americans are mostly interested in cut and paste…â€

 

She then recommended a book by Chogyam Trungpa - [1]Cutting

 

Through Spiritual Materialism – it is best to dedicate to a path,

 

instead of thinking we are good enough to cut and paste.

 

 

 

As was pointed out, the Wen Bing masters first became proficient

 

in Shang Han Lun and only then added something. So, to give the

 

other side… as Chinese medicine is in it’s infancy in the west,

 

the best path for Westerners is to dedicate to a single style and

 

find true proficiency.

 

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

www.shanghanlunsemi nars.com

 

 

 

References

 

 

 

1. http://www.amazon. com/Cutting- Through-Spiritua l-Materialism- Shambhala/

dp/1590306392/ ref=sr_1_ 1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid= 1240447460 & sr=8-1

 

 

 

--

 

http://www.fastmail .fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Henry,

 

I've been reading " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " and find it intriguing. From a theoretical

standpoint, what he says makes a lot of sense. I'm still very curious to see it

done in person, but I've read that Lu doesn't take students in his clinic. Have

you heard this? I've also seem some fairly harsh critiques of him on the

internet, where people bashed him for exaggeration. Any comments?

 

I also have a Li Ke book, and while he does some similar things, he seems more

balanced/eclectic, using a wider range of methods, and also claiming good

results. I'd be very curious to hear what your friend has to say about him.

 

Finally, working on building my library at the moment. Any recommendations?

Mainly just looking for stuff in Chinese....

 

Best wishes,

 

Greg

 

, " henry_buchtel " <henry.buchtel

wrote:

 

> I've never studied with or met any of the people in question, I've just read

their books and heard/read other people's opinions about them. I do have one

friend (a doc in GZ) who is a disciple of Li Ke in Shaanxi (not officially a

member of the fire spirit school, but his formulas resemble theirs). I'll ask

him to give us some 1st person perspective.

>

> For more mind-bogglingosity ->

>

> " In the last year I treated 2,745 patients (...) and prescribed a total of

20,076 formulas. (...) 99.7% of the formulas included [some form of] ginger.

(...) 98.8% of the formulas included [some form of] gui zhi. (...) 96.8% of them

included [some form of] fuzi. " (Lu Chong-Han, " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " )

>

> Regards, Henry

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg, glad to hear you're enjoying the book. I really hope some more of this

stuff can be introduced to the West.

 

I haven't heard anything about studying with Dr. Lu, but I can ask around. That

would be great if you had a chance to study with him!

 

I think that exaggeration is a real problem among CM practitioners in China. I

haven't noticed any emphasis on recording failed treatments in either Dr. Lu's

or Dr. Li Ke's book. I can understand why they might want to avoid doing so, as

they are always under attack from WM doctors and institutions, but when people

start thinking of them as saints trouble is bound to follow...

 

There are complaints about this kind of thing on the forum run by the publisher

of the Lu book- www.zhongyimingjia.com

 

Here is another good forum (with more docs, less patients): www.shanghan.com

 

Greg, what do you think of Dr. Lu's principle of " Yang guides, Yin follows " ?

(first introduced on p. 17 of " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " ).

 

Regards, Henry

 

, " Greg A. Livingston "

<drlivingston wrote:

>

> Hi Henry,

>

> I've been reading " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " and find it intriguing. From a

theoretical standpoint, what he says makes a lot of sense. I'm still very

curious to see it done in person, but I've read that Lu doesn't take students in

his clinic. Have you heard this? I've also seem some fairly harsh critiques of

him on the internet, where people bashed him for exaggeration. Any comments?

>

> I also have a Li Ke book, and while he does some similar things, he seems more

balanced/eclectic, using a wider range of methods, and also claiming good

results. I'd be very curious to hear what your friend has to say about him.

>

> Finally, working on building my library at the moment. Any recommendations?

Mainly just looking for stuff in Chinese....

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Greg

>

> , " henry_buchtel " <henry.buchtel@>

wrote:

>

> > I've never studied with or met any of the people in question, I've just read

their books and heard/read other people's opinions about them. I do have one

friend (a doc in GZ) who is a disciple of Li Ke in Shaanxi (not officially a

member of the fire spirit school, but his formulas resemble theirs). I'll ask

him to give us some 1st person perspective.

> >

> > For more mind-bogglingosity ->

> >

> > " In the last year I treated 2,745 patients (...) and prescribed a total of

20,076 formulas. (...) 99.7% of the formulas included [some form of] ginger.

(...) 98.8% of the formulas included [some form of] gui zhi. (...) 96.8% of them

included [some form of] fuzi. " (Lu Chong-Han, " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " )

> >

> > Regards, Henry

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Henry,

 

, " henry_buchtel " <henry.buchtel

wrote:

>

> Hi Greg, glad to hear you're enjoying the book. I really hope some more of

this stuff can be introduced to the West.

 

I think it's being introduced already. Heiner Freuhauf seems to have studied

with Lu (at least that's what it sounds like after reading some things on his

website), and of course Liu Lihong teaches at Heiner's school. And of course,

SHL studies are becoming more popular in the west.

 

>

> I haven't heard anything about studying with Dr. Lu, but I can ask around.

That would be great if you had a chance to study with him!

 

If it's convenient and/or you have some connections, then I would be grateful if

you can ask around. But if not, then don't worry about it- I can manage it on my

own, too. But I do appreciate the offer.

 

>

> I think that exaggeration is a real problem among CM practitioners in China. I

haven't noticed any emphasis on recording failed treatments in either Dr. Lu's

or Dr. Li Ke's book. I can understand why they might want to avoid doing so, as

they are always under attack from WM doctors and institutions, but when people

start thinking of them as saints trouble is bound to follow...

 

I would have to agree about exaggeration being a problem. I see your point about

why they might avoid reporting failures, but at the same time, if they make

outrageous claims they will also be subject to attack. I think it's always

better to honestly represent one's work, but China is not a simple place, and I

don't claim to understand their motivations.

 

 

>

> There are complaints about this kind of thing on the forum run by the

publisher of the Lu book- www.zhongyimingjia.com

>

> Here is another good forum (with more docs, less patients): www.shanghan.com

 

Thanks for these links. They look interesting, and I will have to find some time

to check them out in more detail.

 

>

> Greg, what do you think of Dr. Lu's principle of " Yang guides, Yin follows " ?

(first introduced on p. 17 of " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " ).

 

Well, like I said, theoretically his ideas make a lot of sense to me. He

supports this particular idea (among others) with quotes from Yijing, Neijing,

SHL, etc., so he's not just making stuff up. It makes a lot of sense to me, and

while the fire god school has taken it to an extreme, it's not really a new idea

to me, or anyone on this list, I'm sure. Take for example Dang Gui Bu Xue Tang-

tonifying the blood (yin) by supplementing the qi (yang). So, the idea is not

really novel or new, but the " extreme " treatments that these guys devise from

this theory are rather novel and unusual, and also intriguing. But I still have

to see it first-hand before I'll believe it can be applied so broadly with good

effect. I have no trouble believing that there are select cases that will

respond well to their methods, but it's the broad application that I want to

witness.

 

How about you? Any thoughts?

 

Best wishes,

 

Greg

 

>

> Regards, Henry

>

> , " Greg A. Livingston "

<drlivingston@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Henry,

> >

> > I've been reading " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " and find it intriguing. From a

theoretical standpoint, what he says makes a lot of sense. I'm still very

curious to see it done in person, but I've read that Lu doesn't take students in

his clinic. Have you heard this? I've also seem some fairly harsh critiques of

him on the internet, where people bashed him for exaggeration. Any comments?

> >

> > I also have a Li Ke book, and while he does some similar things, he seems

more balanced/eclectic, using a wider range of methods, and also claiming good

results. I'd be very curious to hear what your friend has to say about him.

> >

> > Finally, working on building my library at the moment. Any recommendations?

Mainly just looking for stuff in Chinese....

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> > Greg

> >

> > , " henry_buchtel " <henry.buchtel@>

wrote:

> >

> > > I've never studied with or met any of the people in question, I've just

read their books and heard/read other people's opinions about them. I do have

one friend (a doc in GZ) who is a disciple of Li Ke in Shaanxi (not officially a

member of the fire spirit school, but his formulas resemble theirs). I'll ask

him to give us some 1st person perspective.

> > >

> > > For more mind-bogglingosity ->

> > >

> > > " In the last year I treated 2,745 patients (...) and prescribed a total of

20,076 formulas. (...) 99.7% of the formulas included [some form of] ginger.

(...) 98.8% of the formulas included [some form of] gui zhi. (...) 96.8% of them

included [some form of] fuzi. " (Lu Chong-Han, " Fu Yang Jiang Ji " )

> > >

> > > Regards, Henry

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

 

I appreciate your take on the " yang guides yin follows " principle- I'm quite

interested in the theory, but have little to no clinical herb experience, so it

is hard for me to associate anything *real* with the theory.

 

re: exaggeration- I don't think the issue is the authors exaggerating the

results, but rather stems from the selection of the most successful cases for

publication. It would be obvious to a doctor reading the book that this

selection had taken place, but perhaps readers who are not in the medical field

would get the impression that *every* case is like that.

 

I finally received an article written by the friend (Dr. Ouyang) I mentioned

earlier entitled " Clinical experience with Dr. Li Ke's 'Experience Formula' Wu

She Rong Pi Decoction " (title not finalized ), which contains 9 cases of

using the decoction in the treatment of various dermalogical diseases. I'm

hoping to get the translation published soon.

 

Regards, Henry