RE: Terminology and Etymology-specifically verbs

May 8, 2009

Very well put, Jason. I would argue though, that my greatest concern is with

verbs. Verbs of action, to be specific. I find many different verbs express

concepts which obviously are meant to convey specificity by their use instead

of different verbs. Yet in virtually every translated text from Wiseman to

Bensky to Flaws on down, there is this poetic sense that one reads, without

getting any clarity or specificity. On the contrary. I feel it leads to

vagueness, and the mediocre acceptance of " whatever " being OK. " Drain,reduce,

subdue, sedate, calm, etc. It's like in English, stylistically an author

will use different verbs to add a flair to one's writing, but the underlying

understanding is that they all are really synonyms. I don't think that that is

the case in Chinese. As you articulately convey, and I assumed, there is a

specificity in the distinct usage of certain action verbs. The problems are

that it is difficult to

understand exactly what, and that process of clarification needs to be resolved

by universal consistancy and acceptance, otherwise we will continue along this

very unacceptable path that we have been on for the last 40 years of poor and

inadequate translations.

--- On Fri, 5/8/09, wrote:

RE: Re: Terminology and Etymology

Friday, May 8, 2009, 6:04 AM

I see a couple of interesting points here:

I completely agree with Doug's idea below, it many times is more about the

concept than the " word. " For example, there are two reasons why I enjoy

reading in Chinese 1) because of the very logical structure, but more

importantly to this conversation is 2) many of the words that we pin down in

English I see as more concepts in Chinese. Within a single 'concept' or even

four character phrase, there is a whole spectrum of meanings, and nuances

that can become easily lost when one pin that down to a word in English.

To elaborate, many times the Chinese is more precise because it is not

precise. Many Chinese phrases are meant to be kind of vague or encompass

more than one might think at first reading. Part of understanding it is

contemplation in a larger scale. I find that when I read such a Chinese

phrase 'I get it.' because I don't.

For example, when I try to translate it, it becomes a monstrous task,

because as soon as I assign a word, then this word becomes a substitution

for sometimes a whole host of nuanced meanings. To contemplate things, this

word might be dependent of the context of the passage or even the Authors

nuanced usage. This can be the key to getting many Chinese words and

phrases, and even a English speaker overtime can start to get this point.

Therefore, Yehuda is somewhat correct if you are not thinking in Chinese you

will miss the boat. If you are just reading and substituting 1 English word

for 1 Chinese character when you read (which I used to do) you have a good

chance of missing something. (This is not to say we should not still strive

for the best translation possible, but sometimes this may be a string of

words, a single word, or a long footnote, or a fuzzy idea based on the

passage). It is really case by case dependent.

In the West, I think Doug also mentioned this, our minds want the exact

meaning, we want precision. If one cannot access Chinese, this makes sense,

we want the best possible translation as possible, who can argue with that!

Before some takes my commentary as some black and white statement, let me be

clear. I am not saying that Chinese is not precise. There are plenty of

situations (probably the majority) that require a very precise single word

translation. I am not suggesting one system or way of translating is better

than any other. I am not suggesting one must be fluent in Chinese to be a

great practitioner. There are people that are fluent, teach, and can

translate and have little clinical experience. There are those that don't

know a lick of Chinese that I would trust with my life.

Hope that helps,

-

[] On Behalf Of

I am no way saying in my provocative comments that English could or should

ever be the " lingua franca " of only that learning the

authentic " word " is not the culprit. It is in the concept and that is not

totally dependent on any one language or language skill set.

May 8, 2009

It is quite interesting to see the dicussion of the term translation for two

reasons:

1. the translation itself - language

2. the medicine terms

maybe we did not realize, however, I believe such a discussion will benefit the

tcm spreading in oversea.

here I have a few points to show for reference:

1. let us think this original question - what is language? we may not seriously

think it over

in our daily life. Languge itself is the result of our thinking and also is a

string of characters which our ancesstors developed and handed down from

generation to generation. Because of this, different languages do not have THE

EXTRACT corresponding terms or phrases BUT

the THINKing or thought. In translation practices, we can find hundreds of such

examples.

I learnt 7 years Japanese in my undergraduate and graduate studies before I went

to USA where I stayed for 10years. In English, we say - like a cat on hot brick

- WE can not translate this litrerally into Chinese. However, there is

definitely a same thought/thinking/same experience to express

in Chinese enviroment - then the Chinese expression for the same situation is (

like ant on hot pot), likewise Japanese! In this case, anyway, both are quite

similar expressions. In other cases, they may be quite different, BUT the

thought to be expressed will be SAME! This is the RIGHT POINT!

2. let's back to the Medicine term - " Xie " ( " Drain,reduce, subdue, sedate,

calm, etc.). What is important here is that we should find out what

thought/situation " Xie " in Chinese really carry out to peoples. In Chinese

enviorment, when mentioned " Xie " , we immediately relate it to something which

most people in this enviorment mostly understand. AS LONG AS we find out WHAT

THE REAL THOUGH/THINKING expressed IN " Xie " , the translation itself should not

be a problem! if no exact corresponding term/word available, we may use a

phrase or even a sentence or even several to express it, why we just limited

ourselves to a word but tout the thought. Even we can create one or just borrow

it into English like Japanese does(Japanese borrows many words from other

languages). When we teach students, we can explain in several sentences or

phrases to explain the " Xie " so that we keep the same thought/thinking.

Back to the " Xie " again, in this case, I personally do not think any single word

of (Drain,reduce, subdue, sedate, calm, etc) is well conrresponding to " Xie " .

In Chinese medicine - if we have over high " Yang " , we can " Xie " it - " reduce or

lessen or Down or decrease " may work. But if we have much Yin, never heard of

" Xie " Yin. If patient has much water in body(higher Yin), in Chinese, we " Xie "

shui(water), at this case, seems " drain " better.

In all, we may avoid the arguement which word in English is better to " Xie " ,

instead just to use it there quite like " Yin " and " Yang " . How can we translate

the " Yin " and " Yang " (we use several English sentences to explain the thought in

it, right? ). The thought is unique. This is the right point. Likewise the

" Xie " (as long as we understand in each cases what " Xie " really means, it is

enough).