Guest guest Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 This conversation has been quite thought provoking. For anyone who waded through my previous long post, it should be clear that I am unclear on specifics and favor a wide meaning of jin. However, I wanted to get others opinions about the issue and how they think about this clinically, or if anyone has any good references from books that discuss the issue. Understanding jin does seem to have a relevant clinical importance, hence here are just a few quick findings¡ 1) There are definitely times in the NeiJing where jin is used to describe specific anatomical locations, especially in relation to channels and acu points (i.e. major sinew) 2) Here is a quote for sinew bi. It says ¡®the pain is in the joints and there is an inability to walk and the disease lies in the sinews.¡¯ This is most likely arthritis. However the treatment is to needle the sinews. It further goes on to say if the disease in the muscles and flesh this is muscle bi, and it is instructed to needle at the parting of the small and large flesh. In this clinical example, could the jin include the muscles? It does not seem that likely that the larger understanding of sinew (including muscles) works here, especially in regard to where ¡®they¡¯ are telling you to needle. Do others see it different? 3) It is also said, ¡°Prolonged movement injures the sinews.¡± It sounds like tendonitis to me. However hard to say. 4) NeiJing (suwen, Îå²ØÉú³ÉÂÛ), ¡°All jin are part of the joints¡± ¨C this sounds like they are saying jin is essentially the ligaments and tendons. 5) Just a fun one: ¡®abnormal disease of the eyes is a sinew disease.¡¯ IMO, all it takes is 1 example to show that different passages use the term differently. Hence demonstrates even back then, different people will use jin in different ways. I find understanding how such ancients used the term is essential to understanding the clinically ramifications. Has anyone found any additional sources we can reference to understand this issue more? Eric? Thoughts? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Here is another NeiJing quote: ¡°These gathering sinews bind the bones and provide mobility to the joints.¡± -Jason On Behalf Of Sunday, May 10, 2009 8:55 PM Sinews (jin) This conversation has been quite thought provoking. For anyone who waded through my previous long post, it should be clear that I am unclear on specifics and favor a wide meaning of jin. However, I wanted to get others opinions about the issue and how they think about this clinically, or if anyone has any good references from books that discuss the issue. Understanding jin does seem to have a relevant clinical importance, hence here are just a few quick findings¡ 1) There are definitely times in the NeiJing where jin is used to describe specific anatomical locations, especially in relation to channels and acu points (i.e. major sinew) 2) Here is a quote for sinew bi. It says ¡®the pain is in the joints and there is an inability to walk and the disease lies in the sinews.¡¯ This is most likely arthritis. However the treatment is to needle the sinews. It further goes on to say if the disease in the muscles and flesh this is muscle bi, and it is instructed to needle at the parting of the small and large flesh. In this clinical example, could the jin include the muscles? It does not seem that likely that the larger understanding of sinew (including muscles) works here, especially in regard to where ¡®they¡¯ are telling you to needle. Do others see it different? 3) It is also said, ¡°Prolonged movement injures the sinews.¡± It sounds like tendonitis to me. However hard to say. 4) NeiJing (suwen, Îå²ØÉú³ÉÂÛ), ¡°All jin are part of the joints¡± ¨C this sounds like they are saying jin is essentially the ligaments and tendons. 5) Just a fun one: ¡®abnormal disease of the eyes is a sinew disease.¡¯ IMO, all it takes is 1 example to show that different passages use the term differently. Hence demonstrates even back then, different people will use jin in different ways. I find understanding how such ancients used the term is essential to understanding the clinically ramifications. Has anyone found any additional sources we can reference to understand this issue more? Eric? Thoughts? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Eric said: > I'm not suggesting that the sinew tissue is the prime source of > strength. But sinew tissue in TCM is associated with agility, > strength, flexibility, and hypertonicity, and it does overlap with > some tissue that is classified as muscle tissue in biomedicine. This correlates with the translations of what Chinese taiji masters say and is translated as " sinew. " I understand this to relate to " agility, strength, flexibility, and hypertonicity " in the martial arts. Some may misunderstand it as the mere meat of the muscle, any muscle. Frances Gander, L.Ac. Athens, OH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Wiseman/Feng's Dictionary of writes that " Jin " can also mean blood vessels that are visible on the skin and the penis. Belonging to wood, this connotes something sinewy. Is the penis considered a tendon or sinew in the medicine? What about visible blood vessels (ropy-hard vasculature) ? K On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Frances L. Gander < threetreasures wrote: > > > Eric said: > > I'm not suggesting that the sinew tissue is the prime source of > > strength. But sinew tissue in TCM is associated with agility, > > strength, flexibility, and hypertonicity, and it does overlap with > > some tissue that is classified as muscle tissue in biomedicine. > This correlates with the translations of what Chinese taiji masters say > and is translated as " sinew. " I understand this to relate to " agility, > strength, flexibility, and hypertonicity " in the martial arts. Some may > misunderstand it as the mere meat of the muscle, any muscle. > > Frances Gander, L.Ac. > Athens, OH > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 John, I guess that the penis is 'sinew' since the frequent translation is " ancestral sinew. " Any evidence that it could be 'tendon'? Frances Gander, L.Ac. Athens, Ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Frances, I am unsure of your question. Are you asking if the penis is a tendon in biomedical terms?? As I think we have seen that, jin (¶Ú) has a wide range of meanings. It can be narrow as in tendon & ligaments, it also has a wider meaning as in tendon, ligament, and some aspects of the muscles or connective tissue, it also can be used in phrases that have not much to do with either but are related the Liver (because of the 5 phases). Therefore when Chinese use the term jin, to understand the meaning one must take it in context. One can not just say jin is just ¡Ètendon¡É, or just XYZ. It¡Çs meaning will change depending on the usage. As far as Zong jin (½¡¶Ú), yes, it is translated as ancestral sinew and CAN mean penis, but Zong jin (½¡¶Ú) also has other meanings based on different contexts. Sorry if this answer is not exactly what you are looking for. If not, maybe there is another way to ask it, or someone else may have a better idea. - On Behalf Of Frances L. Gander Thursday, May 14, 2009 10:12 AM Re: Sinews (jin) John, I guess that the penis is 'sinew' since the frequent translation is " ancestral sinew. " Any evidence that it could be 'tendon'? Frances Gander, L.Ac. Athens, Ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 it is an extraordinary organ, like brain, uterus. --- On Thu, 5/14/09, Frances L. Gander <threetreasures wrote: Frances L. Gander <threetreasures Re: Sinews (jin) Thursday, May 14, 2009, 12:11 PM John, I guess that the penis is 'sinew' since the frequent translation is " ancestral sinew. " Any evidence that it could be 'tendon'? Frances Gander, L.Ac. Athens, Ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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