Guest guest Posted May 21, 2009 Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 i was in santa fe a few years back - got really dizzy - vertigo - light headed - someone told me we were at 7000 ft - i had a bottle of Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin - took it - bada bing bada boom - everything cleared - - so wouldn't it make a difference how the altitude sickness affected you -so how can one formula tx everyones altitude sickness - just my humble opinion  chet -ps i think immortal qi is a bzyqt variation - so i dont think it would have been a good choice for me “Dissent without resistance- is consent†HDT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Any info on these herbs? Potentilla anserina Brown's lilly bulb Thanks, K On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:51 AM, cara <herbbabe wrote: > thanks for the input! > > Cara O. Frank, R. OM > Six Fishes > China Herb Company > Director Chinese Herb Department > Tai Sophia Institute > www.carafrank.com > 215-772-0770 > > On Jul 9, 2009, at 10:56 PM, John Freeman wrote: > > > > > > > - Feedback on effective formula for altitude sickness > > - My wife and I just returned from 2 weeks in Peru > > - We were hiking at altitudes up to 12,000 feet > > - We had purchased a product called Altigen (www.getaltigen.com) > > - The ingredients as listed are: > > Rhodiola crenulata > > American ginseng > > Angelica sinensis > > Panax noto-ginseng > > Potentilla anserina > > Brown's lilly bulb > > - We were taking 2 tablet (500mg) up to 3 times per day and found > > it amazingly effective > > - If the pills are crunched and washed down with water, they provide > > immediate relief > > within a couple of minutes > > Best Regards John F. > > > > ________ > > Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark > > your favourite sites. Download it now > > http://ca.toolbar.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Good to know although the local product worked well for me also. Doug , John Freeman <johnfreemanis wrote: > > - Feedback on effective formula for altitude sickness > - My wife and I just returned from 2 weeks in Peru > - We were hiking at altitudes up to 12,000 feet > - We had purchased a product called Altigen (www.getaltigen.com) > - The ingredients as listed are: > Rhodiola crenulata > American ginseng > Angelica sinensis > Panax noto-ginseng > Potentilla anserina > Brown's lilly bulb > - We were taking 2 tablet (500mg) up to 3 times per day and found it amazingly effective > - If the pills are crunched and washed down with water, they provide immediate relief > within a couple of minutes > Best Regards John F. > > > ________________ > Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > http://ca.toolbar.. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 What local product? ann On Jul 10, 2009, at 2:50 PM, wrote: > > > Good to know although the local product worked well for me also. > Doug > > , John Freeman > <johnfreemanis wrote: > > > > - Feedback on effective formula for altitude sickness > > - My wife and I just returned from 2 weeks in Peru > > - We were hiking at altitudes up to 12,000 feet > > - We had purchased a product called Altigen (www.getaltigen.com) > > - The ingredients as listed are: > > Rhodiola crenulata > > American ginseng > > Angelica sinensis > > Panax noto-ginseng > > Potentilla anserina > > Brown's lilly bulb > > - We were taking 2 tablet (500mg) up to 3 times per day and found > it amazingly effective > > - If the pills are crunched and washed down with water, they > provide immediate relief > > within a couple of minutes > > Best Regards John F. > > > > > > ________ > > Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and > bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > > http://ca.toolbar.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Brown's lily bulb appears to be Bai He, Bulbus Lilii. Potentilla anserina is called droma in Tibetan and is used as a famine food in place of barley with which it is nutritionally comparable. In English, this is called gooseweed. I have not been able to find a Chinese name or Chinese medical description. While this formula may manifestly work as advertised, I would caution against prescribing it. Because of the last ingredient, you would probably have trouble defending yourself in a court of law if that ever became necessary. This is not one of our CM materia medica we are trained to use. Further, looking at the medicinal descriptions of this plant, it is hard to rationally understand why it is in this formula other than it is commonly consumed in Tibet, a high altitude country. Like the Potentilla we are trained to use (Bai Tou Weng), its main medicinal use seems to be as an anti-diarrhetic. As healers, we are all interested in what works clinically. However, we also have to take into account the medico-ethical and medico-legal ramifications of anything we prescribe. , <johnkokko wrote: > > Any info on these herbs? > > Potentilla anserina > Brown's lilly bulb > > Thanks, > K > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:51 AM, cara <herbbabe wrote: > > > thanks for the input! > > > > Cara O. Frank, R. OM > > Six Fishes > > China Herb Company > > Director Chinese Herb Department > > Tai Sophia Institute > > www.carafrank.com > > 215-772-0770 > > > > On Jul 9, 2009, at 10:56 PM, John Freeman wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > - Feedback on effective formula for altitude sickness > > > - My wife and I just returned from 2 weeks in Peru > > > - We were hiking at altitudes up to 12,000 feet > > > - We had purchased a product called Altigen (www.getaltigen.com) > > > - The ingredients as listed are: > > > Rhodiola crenulata > > > American ginseng > > > Angelica sinensis > > > Panax noto-ginseng > > > Potentilla anserina > > > Brown's lilly bulb > > > - We were taking 2 tablet (500mg) up to 3 times per day and found > > > it amazingly effective > > > - If the pills are crunched and washed down with water, they provide > > > immediate relief > > > within a couple of minutes > > > Best Regards John F. > > > > > > ________ > > > Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark > > > your favourite sites. Download it now > > > http://ca.toolbar.. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Coca leaves. Doug , " A. Brameier " <snakeoil.works wrote: > > What local product? > ann > > On Jul 10, 2009, at 2:50 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > Good to know although the local product worked well for me also. > > Doug > > > > , John Freeman > > <johnfreemanis@> wrote: > > > > > > - Feedback on effective formula for altitude sickness > > > - My wife and I just returned from 2 weeks in Peru > > > - We were hiking at altitudes up to 12,000 feet > > > - We had purchased a product called Altigen (www.getaltigen.com) > > > - The ingredients as listed are: > > > Rhodiola crenulata > > > American ginseng > > > Angelica sinensis > > > Panax noto-ginseng > > > Potentilla anserina > > > Brown's lilly bulb > > > - We were taking 2 tablet (500mg) up to 3 times per day and found > > it amazingly effective > > > - If the pills are crunched and washed down with water, they > > provide immediate relief > > > within a couple of minutes > > > Best Regards John F. > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and > > bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > > > http://ca.toolbar.. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 hahaha bring it. ;-) On Jul 10, 2009, at 4:24 PM, wrote: > > > Coca leaves. > Doug > > , " A. Brameier " > <snakeoil.works wrote: > > > > What local product? > > ann > > > > On Jul 10, 2009, at 2:50 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Good to know although the local product worked well for me also. > > > Doug > > > > > > , John Freeman > > > <johnfreemanis@> wrote: > > > > > > > > - Feedback on effective formula for altitude sickness > > > > - My wife and I just returned from 2 weeks in Peru > > > > - We were hiking at altitudes up to 12,000 feet > > > > - We had purchased a product called Altigen (www.getaltigen.com) > > > > - The ingredients as listed are: > > > > Rhodiola crenulata > > > > American ginseng > > > > Angelica sinensis > > > > Panax noto-ginseng > > > > Potentilla anserina > > > > Brown's lilly bulb > > > > - We were taking 2 tablet (500mg) up to 3 times per day and > found > > > it amazingly effective > > > > - If the pills are crunched and washed down with water, they > > > provide immediate relief > > > > within a couple of minutes > > > > Best Regards John F. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > > Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and > > > bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now > > > > http://ca.toolbar.. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 , " Bob Flaws " <bob wrote: > While this formula may manifestly work as advertised, I would caution against prescribing it. Because of the last ingredient, you would probably have trouble defending yourself in a court of law if that ever became necessary. > As healers, we are all interested in what works clinically. However, we also have to take into account the medico-ethical and medico-legal ramifications of anything we prescribe. This seems HIGHLY paranoid to me. I'm wondering if any licensed Chinese medicine practitioner has ever had to go to court and defend their use of an herb, unless of course they were using high doses of ma huang for weight loss or something equally ridiculous. In fact, I have a hard time imagining a lawyer questioning such a practitioner on that level: " Dr. X, isn't it true that Lily Bulb is used for Lung Yin vacuity patterns and yet you used it for altitude sickeness!? " No lawyer I know would take a case based on one herb in one formula unless there was very strong data showing that herb is dangerous and a reasonable belief that the practitioner should know about such data. No need to scare people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 In my opinion, we shouldn't prescribe or recommend an herb to a patient, unless we have solid information about it (MDs are extremely cautious about this and that's probably a good thing). Thanks for the information Bob. At the same time, if we are afraid of being sued, we would have to be extremely cautious about prescribing any formula (mix of herbs) that has no literature behind it. In other words, we should only use classical formulas that has been time-tested. If you made up your own formula, even if it consists of materia medica herbs, you could be liable, because of the herb-herb combinations/ contraindications. K On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 4:32 AM, d_munez <d_munez wrote: > > > --- In <%40>, > " Bob Flaws " <bob wrote: > > While this formula may manifestly work as advertised, I would caution > against prescribing it. Because of the last ingredient, you would probably > have trouble defending yourself in a court of law if that ever became > necessary. > > As healers, we are all interested in what works clinically. However, we > also have to take into account the medico-ethical and medico-legal > ramifications of anything we prescribe. > > This seems HIGHLY paranoid to me. I'm wondering if any licensed Chinese > medicine practitioner has ever had to go to court and defend their use of an > herb, unless of course they were using high doses of ma huang for weight > loss or something equally ridiculous. In fact, I have a hard time imagining > a lawyer questioning such a practitioner on that level: " Dr. X, isn't it > true that Lily Bulb is used for Lung Yin vacuity patterns and yet you used > it for altitude sickeness!? " > > No lawyer I know would take a case based on one herb in one formula unless > there was very strong data showing that herb is dangerous and a reasonable > belief that the practitioner should know about such data. No need to scare > people... > > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Kokko, While CHA is not the place to belabor the issue and all of its complexities, I believe it is generous to suggest that MD's are extremely cautious about what they are prescribing. In many instances MD's are equipped with the current state of pharmcological evolution with specific protocols, their benefits and iatrogenic offerings, being the standard of practice. In too many more instances, physicians are subscribing to treatments and notions of their value being defined by pharmaceutical companies. The largest scale example of this was Pfizer's Neurontin, or gabapentin, which was approved for regulating seizures and promoted for numerous other clinical situations and used widely by general practitioners and specialists alike. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/14/BUGKK6L0LB1.DTL Just a thought. Ben johnkokko Sat, 11 Jul 2009 08:45:30 -0700 Re: Altitude Sickness In my opinion, we shouldn't prescribe or recommend an herb to a patient, unless we have solid information about it (MDs are extremely cautious about this and that's probably a good thing). Thanks for the information Bob. At the same time, if we are afraid of being sued, we would have to be extremely cautious about prescribing any formula (mix of herbs) that has no literature behind it. In other words, we should only use classical formulas that has been time-tested. If you made up your own formula, even if it consists of materia medica herbs, you could be liable, because of the herb-herb combinations/ contraindications. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 I was interested in this formula as I am going to Qing Hai later this month. Potentilla anserina (which grows all over the world, except Africa, I believe) Chinese name is jue ma (蕨麻) sweet, slightly bitter, cold. supplements qi and harmonized the spleen, engenders jin and stops thirst. Used for diseases leading to blood vacuity, malnutrition, water swelling, spleen vacuity diarrhea, wind-dampness bi pain. 15-30g From Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian (ä¸è¯å¤§è¾žå…¸) 2006. Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Ben, That is true. MDs are more cautious and are often driven by economic trends and pharm companies. Can we say that we aren't?...(Herb companies)... MDs don't sell their meds directly to their patients, but we do. The MDs that I know want to see a lot of research before they prescribe something, but of course, research that is published has some financial backing and there is an agenda for that as well. K On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 4:04 PM, ben zappin <btz23 wrote: > > > Kokko, > > While CHA is not the place to belabor the issue and all of its > complexities, I believe it is generous to suggest that MD's are extremely > cautious about what they are prescribing. In many instances MD's are > equipped with the current state of pharmcological evolution with specific > protocols, their benefits and iatrogenic offerings, being the standard of > practice. In too many more instances, physicians are subscribing to > treatments and notions of their value being defined by pharmaceutical > companies. The largest scale example of this was Pfizer's Neurontin, or > gabapentin, which was approved for regulating seizures and promoted for > numerous other clinical situations and used widely by general practitioners > and specialists alike. > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/14/BUGKK6L0LB1.DTL > > Just a thought. > > Ben > > > <%40> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > Sat, 11 Jul 2009 08:45:30 -0700 > Re: Altitude Sickness > > > In my opinion, we shouldn't prescribe or recommend an herb to a patient, > unless we have solid information about it (MDs are extremely cautious about > this > and that's probably a good thing). > Thanks for the information Bob. > > At the same time, if we are afraid of being sued, we would have to be > extremely > cautious about prescribing any formula (mix of herbs) that has no > literature > behind it. > In other words, we should only use classical formulas that has been > time-tested. > If you made up your own formula, even if it consists of materia medica > herbs, > you could be liable, because of the herb-herb combinations/ > contraindications. > > K > > -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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