Guest guest Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 CHA, Recently I read Heiner¡Çs excellent article ¡ÈThe importance of Aconite (fuzi).¡É He makes his case, based on Sichuan Fire Spirit School, that fuzi is an indispensible herb for chronic diseases. However, he also states that what we obtain in the West is not only not grown in the correct regions, but processed incorrectly. This can lead to an inert fuzi as well as increased potential for toxicity. He states that the toxicity that people experience is not from the fuzi itself, but lack of ¡Æproper processing.¡Ç He also states that education is lacking on this issue and this is one reason people are afraid of prescribing fuzi. But he is fairly adamant that one should not be using this incorrect fuzi. I have no reason to disagree with any of these issues, for I am far from a fuzi expert. However this brings up a couple of questions. If the issue of obtaining proper fuzi is as imperative as Heiner suggests, what are others doing in their clinic? Recently, due to our CHA conversations and reading some ²Ð¿ÀÇÉ ¡Êhuo shen pai¡Ë, I have been experimenting more and more with fuzi (sometimes with higher dosages that in my past). I have though been getting good results, and we obtain our fuzi from Mayway / Springwind. Granted maybe the results could have better, or the times that it didn¡Çt work, maybe the formula would have worked, if I had a better quality. I have no doubt that there are varying grades of fuzi, as with most herbs. Heiner points out that he does sell the ¡Æproper¡Ç fuzi in granular form, however it does not sound like he sells it in bulk. I am interested in finding quality fuzi in bulk and comparing the two clinically. Where could one obtain this fuzi in bulk? I get the impression from his article that no one else has the genuine fuzi, hence am wondering what others know about this issue and how this has shown up in their day to day clinical outcomes. However, since I have seen results, I do have a hard time imagining that the fuzi we get is inert. I also have never had any side-effects from fuzi. Of course I have people pre-cook it. BTW, he also states that in China most fuzi is also incorrect (region and processing), therefore one would assume that their fuzi would have similar problems. What have others heard and experienced and how much of an issue do you think this really is? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2009 Report Share Posted May 24, 2009 1. To say the Fu Zi in China is incorrect is too rude to say this way!! Maybe somewhere in China,  they sell the incorrect Fu Zi, just there is always bad thing somewhere on the world. But the Tong Ren Tang sells the best quality on the world. they have more than 100 year experience to process this and other herbs. Actually in a responsible pharmacy - like Tong ren Tang, they will sell only you limited quality of the herbs which have toxcity - like Fuzi(also to my knowledge, recent years, they started to monitor the contents of heavy metals, petcide,... although I have no exact information about how the progress is).  IF YOU CAN ACCESSE Tong Ren Tang pharmacy, just go there and get the herbs, the quality is trustible from my and other experience.  2. about the toxcity of the herb, couple of months ago, we just finished a brief report on the toxicity of herbs for an European company. From our literature research and investigation, we found not a few westerners have misunderstanding on the herbs - including the broad-casted UK cases so called caused by Chinese herbs toxicity.  It is true that historically less attentions have been given to the toxicity research of herbs. But we must state that,  first, compared to western medicine, the side-effect from Chinese herbs is much mild. Second, although saying that, some Chinese herbs do have toxicity - however the philosophy is that for more than thousand years TCM doctors just properpaly use this toxicity to fight diseases and got good results.  THE IMPORTANT HERE IS HOw TO PROCESS THESE HERBS AND HOW TO CORRECTLY USE THEM, otherwise you will get trouble! Like the Fuzi, it itself has toxicity, but when you properly use it/process it, it has no problem. In , how to process the herb is quite important, at Beijing Univ. of tcm and other Univ., there is specification on how to process herbs. In addition, how to grouping/coupling the herbs is also quite important. Some herbs themselves have no poison, but if they appear on same prescription, the trouble will come. On other hand, some herbs do have poison, but the tcm doctors put them together on the same prescription, then it will be same to use.  Hope this will have some help.  --- On Sun, 5/24/09, wrote: fu zi Sunday, May 24, 2009, 6:19 PM CHA, Recently I read Heiner’s excellent article “The importance of Aconite (fuzi).†He makes his case, based on Sichuan Fire Spirit School, that fuzi is an indispensible herb for chronic diseases. However, he also states that what we obtain in the West is not only not grown in the correct regions, but processed incorrectly. This can lead to an inert fuzi as well as increased potential for toxicity. He states that the toxicity that people experience is not from the fuzi itself, but lack of ‘proper processing.’ He also states that education is lacking on this issue and this is one reason people are afraid of prescribing fuzi. But he is fairly adamant that one should not be using this incorrect fuzi. I have no reason to disagree with any of these issues, for I am far from a fuzi expert. However this brings up a couple of questions. If the issue of obtaining proper fuzi is as imperative as Heiner suggests, what are others doing in their clinic? Recently, due to our CHA conversations and reading some ç«ç¥žæ´¾ （huo shen pai）, I have been experimenting more and more with fuzi (sometimes with higher dosages that in my past). I have though been getting good results, and we obtain our fuzi from Mayway / Springwind. Granted maybe the results could have better, or the times that it didn’t work, maybe the formula would have worked, if I had a better quality. I have no doubt that there are varying grades of fuzi, as with most herbs. Heiner points out that he does sell the ‘proper’ fuzi in granular form, however it does not sound like he sells it in bulk. I am interested in finding quality fuzi in bulk and comparing the two clinically. Where could one obtain this fuzi in bulk? I get the impression from his article that no one else has the genuine fuzi, hence am wondering what others know about this issue and how this has shown up in their day to day clinical outcomes. However, since I have seen results, I do have a hard time imagining that the fuzi we get is inert. I also have never had any side-effects from fuzi. Of course I have people pre-cook it. BTW, he also states that in China most fuzi is also incorrect (region and processing), therefore one would assume that their fuzi would have similar problems. What have others heard and experienced and how much of an issue do you think this really is? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Steve,  Do you work for Tong Ren Tang?   --- On Sun, 5/24/09, Steve Qi <wxy123w wrote: Steve Qi <wxy123w Re: fu zi Sunday, May 24, 2009, 7:32 PM 1. To say the Fu Zi in China is incorrect is too rude to say this way!! Maybe somewhere in China,  they sell the incorrect Fu Zi, just there is always bad thing somewhere on the world. But the Tong Ren Tang sells the best quality on the world. they have more than 100 year experience to process this and other herbs. Actually in a responsible pharmacy - like Tong ren Tang, they will sell only you limited quality of the herbs which have toxcity - like Fuzi(also to my knowledge, recent years, they started to monitor the contents of heavy metals, petcide,... although I have no exact information about how the progress is).  IF YOU CAN ACCESSE Tong Ren Tang pharmacy, just go there and get the herbs, the quality is trustible from my and other experience.  2. about the toxcity of the herb, couple of months ago, we just finished a brief report on the toxicity of herbs for an European company. From our literature research and investigation, we found not a few westerners have misunderstanding on the herbs - including the broad-casted UK cases so called caused by Chinese herbs toxicity.  It is true that historically less attentions have been given to the toxicity research of herbs. But we must state that,  first, compared to western medicine, the side-effect from Chinese herbs is much mild. Second, although saying that, some Chinese herbs do have toxicity - however the philosophy is that for more than thousand years TCM doctors just properpaly use this toxicity to fight diseases and got good results.  THE IMPORTANT HERE IS HOw TO PROCESS THESE HERBS AND HOW TO CORRECTLY USE THEM, otherwise you will get trouble! Like the Fuzi, it itself has toxicity, but when you properly use it/process it, it has no problem. In , how to process the herb is quite important, at Beijing Univ. of tcm and other Univ., there is specification on how to process herbs. In addition, how to grouping/coupling the herbs is also quite important. Some herbs themselves have no poison, but if they appear on same prescription, the trouble will come. On other hand, some herbs do have poison, but the tcm doctors put them together on the same prescription, then it will be same to use.  Hope this will have some help.  --- On Sun, 5/24/09, <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> fu zi Sunday, May 24, 2009, 6:19 PM CHA, Recently I read Heiner’s excellent article “The importance of Aconite (fuzi).†He makes his case, based on Sichuan Fire Spirit School, that fuzi is an indispensible herb for chronic diseases. However, he also states that what we obtain in the West is not only not grown in the correct regions, but processed incorrectly. This can lead to an inert fuzi as well as increased potential for toxicity. He states that the toxicity that people experience is not from the fuzi itself, but lack of ‘proper processing.’ He also states that education is lacking on this issue and this is one reason people are afraid of prescribing fuzi. But he is fairly adamant that one should not be using this incorrect fuzi. I have no reason to disagree with any of these issues, for I am far from a fuzi expert. However this brings up a couple of questions. If the issue of obtaining proper fuzi is as imperative as Heiner suggests, what are others doing in their clinic? Recently, due to our CHA conversations and reading some ç«ç¥žæ´¾ （huo shen pai）, I have been experimenting more and more with fuzi (sometimes with higher dosages that in my past). I have though been getting good results, and we obtain our fuzi from Mayway / Springwind. Granted maybe the results could have better, or the times that it didn’t work, maybe the formula would have worked, if I had a better quality. I have no doubt that there are varying grades of fuzi, as with most herbs. Heiner points out that he does sell the ‘proper’ fuzi in granular form, however it does not sound like he sells it in bulk. I am interested in finding quality fuzi in bulk and comparing the two clinically. Where could one obtain this fuzi in bulk? I get the impression from his article that no one else has the genuine fuzi, hence am wondering what others know about this issue and how this has shown up in their day to day clinical outcomes. However, since I have seen results, I do have a hard time imagining that the fuzi we get is inert. I also have never had any side-effects from fuzi. Of course I have people pre-cook it. BTW, he also states that in China most fuzi is also incorrect (region and processing), therefore one would assume that their fuzi would have similar problems. What have others heard and experienced and how much of an issue do you think this really is? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 I wish I would. --- On Mon, 5/25/09, wrote: Steve,  Do you work for Tong Ren Tang? www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Steve, Just for the record, Heiner is of course not saying that all fuzi in China is incorrect, he states the a large percentage is. His article portrays how difficult it is to get real fu zi. Tong ren tang may have the real stuff, but he also states that much of the fuzi is shipped to jiangyou (area in Si Chuan that is known for fu zi cultivation) to get an ‘official’ stamp that says that it was grown there. Although I have no way to verify this, it does not surprise me. Although I have been to Tong Ren Tang many times, there are no local branches here in the West (that I know of). Hence my question is where can we get genuine fuzi in the West? I am curious, Steve, if you read the article I referenced? - On Behalf Of Steve Qi Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:32 PM Re: fu zi 1. To say the Fu Zi in China is incorrect is too rude to say this way!! Maybe somewhere in China, they sell the incorrect Fu Zi, just there is always bad thing somewhere on the world. But the Tong Ren Tang sells the best quality on the world. they have more than 100 year experience to process this and other herbs. Actually in a responsible pharmacy - like Tong ren Tang, they will sell only you limited quality of the herbs which have toxcity - like Fuzi(also to my knowledge, recent years, they started to monitor the contents of heavy metals, petcide,... although I have no exact information about how the progress is). IF YOU CAN ACCESSE Tong Ren Tang pharmacy, just go there and get the herbs, the quality is trustible from my and other experience. 2. about the toxcity of the herb, couple of months ago, we just finished a brief report on the toxicity of herbs for an European company. From our literature research and investigation, we found not a few westerners have misunderstanding on the herbs - including the broad-casted UK cases so called caused by Chinese herbs toxicity. It is true that historically less attentions have been given to the toxicity research of herbs. But we must state that, first, compared to western medicine, the side-effect from Chinese herbs is much mild. Second, although saying that, some Chinese herbs do have toxicity - however the philosophy is that for more than thousand years TCM doctors just properpaly use this toxicity to fight diseases and got good results. THE IMPORTANT HERE IS HOw TO PROCESS THESE HERBS AND HOW TO CORRECTLY USE THEM, otherwise you will get trouble! Like the Fuzi, it itself has toxicity, but when you properly use it/process it, it has no problem. In , how to process the herb is quite important, at Beijing Univ. of tcm and other Univ., there is specification on how to process herbs. In addition, how to grouping/coupling the herbs is also quite important. Some herbs themselves have no poison, but if they appear on same prescription, the trouble will come. On other hand, some herbs do have poison, but the tcm doctors put them together on the same prescription, then it will be same to use. Hope this will have some help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 hello Jason,  The correct answer may be that large percentage you and Heiner can access is. This may be due to the one or two " not good companies " which are doing the import/export business in certain country/area. I can understand this. Specially if only one company is dominating such a business in your area.  To my knowledge(I am not sure),  Tong Ren Tang has branches in UK and several other European countries, you may check UK first. I do not know if they have in North America and other area.  The last choice is that if some herbs are really critical to you and you can not get there, I may help as I did to one patient in Europe who is receiving TCM treatment in this country for her brain Chordoma (the problem here is to make sure the Customer regulation, because the regulation for different country is much different. Some country Customer prohibitend herb importing from oversea).   Steve --- On Mon, 5/25/09, wrote: RE: fu zi Monday, May 25, 2009, 5:57 AM Steve, Just for the record, Heiner is of course not saying that all fuzi in China is incorrect, he states the a large percentage is. His article portrays how difficult it is to get real fu zi. Tong ren tang may have the real stuff, but he also states that much of the fuzi is shipped to jiangyou (area in Si Chuan that is known for fu zi cultivation) to get an ‘official’ stamp that says that it was grown there. Although I have no way to verify this, it does not surprise me. Although I have been to Tong Ren Tang many times, there are no local branches here in the West (that I know of). Hence my question is where can we get genuine fuzi in the West? I am curious, Steve, if you read the article I referenced? - [@ . com] On Behalf Of Steve Qi Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:32 PM Re: fu zi 1. To say the Fu Zi in China is incorrect is too rude to say this way!! Maybe somewhere in China, they sell the incorrect Fu Zi, just there is always bad thing somewhere on the world. But the Tong Ren Tang sells the best quality on the world. they have more than 100 year experience to process this and other herbs. Actually in a responsible pharmacy - like Tong ren Tang, they will sell only you limited quality of the herbs which have toxcity - like Fuzi(also to my knowledge, recent years, they started to monitor the contents of heavy metals, petcide,... although I have no exact information about how the progress is). IF YOU CAN ACCESSE Tong Ren Tang pharmacy, just go there and get the herbs, the quality is trustible from my and other experience. 2. about the toxcity of the herb, couple of months ago, we just finished a brief report on the toxicity of herbs for an European company. From our literature research and investigation, we found not a few westerners have misunderstanding on the herbs - including the broad-casted UK cases so called caused by Chinese herbs toxicity. It is true that historically less attentions have been given to the toxicity research of herbs. But we must state that, first, compared to western medicine, the side-effect from Chinese herbs is much mild. Second, although saying that, some Chinese herbs do have toxicity - however the philosophy is that for more than thousand years TCM doctors just properpaly use this toxicity to fight diseases and got good results. THE IMPORTANT HERE IS HOw TO PROCESS THESE HERBS AND HOW TO CORRECTLY USE THEM, otherwise you will get trouble! Like the Fuzi, it itself has toxicity, but when you properly use it/process it, it has no problem. In , how to process the herb is quite important, at Beijing Univ. of tcm and other Univ., there is specification on how to process herbs. In addition, how to grouping/coupling the herbs is also quite important. Some herbs themselves have no poison, but if they appear on same prescription, the trouble will come. On other hand, some herbs do have poison, but the tcm doctors put them together on the same prescription, then it will be same to use. Hope this will have some help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 on a related note, Heiner is going to teach a weekend for my program at Tai Sophia next february. the topic will be the treatment of autoimmune disorders using yang tonics. this class is open to all as a continuing ed weekend. if you are interested, please contact me and i will put you in touch with the school Cara O. Frank, R. OM Six Fishes China Herb Company Chinese Herb Department Tai Sophia Institute www.carafrank.com 215-772-0770 On May 25, 2009, at 8:57 AM, wrote: > > > Steve, > > Just for the record, Heiner is of course not saying that all fuzi in > China is incorrect, he states the a large percentage is. His article > portrays how difficult it is to get real fu zi. Tong ren tang may > have the real stuff, but he also states that much of the fuzi is > shipped to jiangyou (area in Si Chuan that is known for fu zi > cultivation) to get an ‘official’ stamp that says that it was grown > there. Although I have no way to verify this, it does not surprise me. > > Although I have been to Tong Ren Tang many times, there are no local > branches here in the West (that I know of). Hence my question is > where can we get genuine fuzi in the West? > > I am curious, Steve, if you read the article I referenced? > > - > > [ > ] On Behalf Of Steve Qi > Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:32 PM > > Re: fu zi > > 1. To say the Fu Zi in China is incorrect is too rude to say this > way!! Maybe somewhere in China, they sell the incorrect Fu Zi, just > there is always bad thing somewhere on the world. But the Tong Ren > Tang sells the best quality on the world. they have more than 100 > year experience to process this and other herbs. Actually in a > responsible pharmacy - like Tong ren Tang, they will sell only you > limited quality of the herbs which have toxcity - like Fuzi(also to > my knowledge, recent years, they started to monitor the contents of > heavy metals, petcide,... although I have no exact information about > how the progress is). > > IF YOU CAN ACCESSE Tong Ren Tang pharmacy, just go there and get the > herbs, the quality is trustible from my and other experience. > > 2. about the toxcity of the herb, couple of months ago, we just > finished a brief report on the toxicity of herbs for an European > company. From our literature research and investigation, we found > not a few westerners have misunderstanding on the herbs - including > the broad-casted UK cases so called caused by Chinese herbs toxicity. > > It is true that historically less attentions have been given to the > toxicity research of herbs. But we must state that, first, compared > to western medicine, the side-effect from Chinese herbs is much > mild. Second, although saying that, some Chinese herbs do have > toxicity - however the philosophy is that for more than thousand > years TCM doctors just properpaly use this toxicity to fight > diseases and got good results. THE IMPORTANT HERE IS HOw TO PROCESS > THESE HERBS AND HOW TO CORRECTLY USE THEM, otherwise you will get > trouble! Like the Fuzi, it itself has toxicity, but when you > properly use it/process it, it has no problem. In , > how to process the herb is quite important, at Beijing Univ. of tcm > and other Univ., there is specification on how to process herbs. In > addition, how to grouping/coupling the herbs is also quite > important. Some herbs themselves have no poison, but if they appear > on same prescription, the trouble > will come. On other hand, some herbs do have poison, but the tcm > doctors put them together on the same prescription, then it will be > same to use. > > Hope this will have some help. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Jason et al, I was at the Institute of Medicinal Plant Development (here in Beijing) on Friday discussing my research and the subject of Fu Zi came up. What they (I was talking to 5 professors) said there is that although it is the same species both in the north and the south that the chemistry is quite different (keep in mind that the environment where is grows is VERY different). In fact, they told me that many people in Sichuan eat fuzi as a food. This kind of difference is not unique to fuzi, in fact this is very common! So, this issue is probably more about where the plant grows rather than how it is processed, although there may also be an element of that as well. This is where I think the study of botany is extremely important and basically completely over-looked in the West. It is important to remember that we are dealing with plants and the study of them as plants is the most basic knowledge necessary to understand how to use them, grade them, etc. BTW: nearly every Western herbalist has at least a basic understanding of botany, something that is essentially abscent in Chinese herbal training. Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: www.sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 3:28 PM, wrote: > > This is where I think the study of botany is extremely important and > basically completely over-looked in the West. It is important to remember > that we are dealing with plants and the study of them as plants is the most > basic knowledge necessary to understand how to use them, grade them, etc. > More knowledge is always good, but I expect my herb (extract powders) source to have already done that homework. Whether or not they are sending me decent Fu Zi is anybody's guess. I don't use it much, and it's hard to find anyway. I note that my Taiwanese source has it available, but my PRC source doesn't. I would like to work more with Fu Zi, but as spotty as it is to get in the US, I'm not even sure that it's worth my brain's CPU time. -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Why is it so difficult to get for you? I always find it in stock at KPC and Springwind. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On May 25, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Al Stone wrote: > > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 3:28 PM, > wrote: > > > > > This is where I think the study of botany is extremely important and > > basically completely over-looked in the West. It is important to > remember > > that we are dealing with plants and the study of them as plants > is the most > > basic knowledge necessary to understand how to use them, grade > them, etc. > > > > More knowledge is always good, but I expect my herb (extract > powders) source > to have already done that homework. Whether or not they are sending me > decent Fu Zi is anybody's guess. I don't use it much, and it's hard > to find > anyway. > > I note that my Taiwanese source has it available, but my PRC source > doesn't. > > I would like to work more with Fu Zi, but as spotty as it is to get > in the > US, I'm not even sure that it's worth my brain's CPU time. > > -al. > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2009 Report Share Posted May 25, 2009 Fu zi is a very important herb in Chinese medicine, so resolving this issue may be worth our time indeed. . On May 25, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Al Stone wrote: > > > > More knowledge is always good, but I expect my herb (extract > powders) source > to have already done that homework. Whether or not they are sending me > decent Fu Zi is anybody's guess. I don't use it much, and it's hard > to find > anyway. > > I note that my Taiwanese source has it available, but my PRC source > doesn't. > > I would like to work more with Fu Zi, but as spotty as it is to get > in the > US, I'm not even sure that it's worth my brain's CPU time. > > -al. > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Jason et al, I was at the Institute of Medicinal Plant Development (here in Beijing) on Friday discussing my research and the subject of Fu Zi came up. What they (I was talking to 5 professors) said there is that although it is the same species both in the north and the south that the chemistry is quite different (keep in mind that the environment where is grows is VERY different). In fact, they told me that many people in Sichuan eat fuzi as a food. This kind of difference is not unique to fuzi, in fact this is very common! So, this issue is probably more about where the plant grows rather than how it is processed, although there may also be an element of that as well. This is where I think the study of botany is extremely important and basically completely over-looked in the West. It is important to remember that we are dealing with plants and the study of them as plants is the most basic knowledge necessary to understand how to use them, grade them, etc. BTW: nearly every Western herbalist has at least a basic understanding of botany, something that is essentially abscent in Chinese herbal training. Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: www.sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Thomas, I couldn't agree more. There are many aconites used not only in Chinese medicine and diet, but also in Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine. In fact, there are aconites with cold and hot properties used in Tibet, one factor of determination being which side of a mountain they grow on (full sun or shade!). I look forward to Eric Brand weighing in on this issue as well. . On May 26, 2009, at 7:21 AM, wrote: > > > Jason et al, > > I was at the Institute of Medicinal Plant Development (here in > Beijing) on > Friday discussing my research and the subject of Fu Zi came up. What > they (I > was talking to 5 professors) said there is that although it is the > same > species both in the north and the south that the chemistry is quite > different (keep in mind that the environment where is grows is VERY > different). In fact, they told me that many people in Sichuan eat > fuzi as a > food. This kind of difference is not unique to fuzi, in fact this is > very > common! So, this issue is probably more about where the plant grows > rather > than how it is processed, although there may also be an element of > that as > well. > > This is where I think the study of botany is extremely important and > basically completely over-looked in the West. It is important to > remember > that we are dealing with plants and the study of them as plants is > the most > basic knowledge necessary to understand how to use them, grade them, > etc. > > BTW: nearly every Western herbalist has at least a basic > understanding of > botany, something that is essentially abscent in Chinese herbal > training. > > Thomas > > > Beijing, China > Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A > Practitioners Guide " > Check out my blog: www.sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Thomas, > I couldn't agree more. There are many aconites used not only in > Chinese medicine and diet, but also in Ayurvedic and Tibetan > medicine. In fact, there are aconites with cold and hot properties > used in Tibet, one factor of determination being which side of a > mountain they grow on (full sun or shade!). > > I look forward to Eric Brand weighing in on this issue as well. As I understand it, many types of aconite are used in Chinese medicine. The Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian (Great Encyclopedia of Chinese Medicinals) alone contains 36 different aconite products, some of which come from totally different regions. For example, there is aconite from Taiwan in the South, from Sichuan in the West, and from Manchuria in the Northeast. The three most common aconites that we use are chuan wu, cao wu, and fu zi. Chuan wu and fu zi come from the same plant (central and accessory root), and this plant is thought to be the best from Sichuan (thus the name chuan wu). Cao wu (wild aconite) comes from all over, especially the Northeast. There are very few factories in China that are licensed to process aconite. It is very poisonous and highly regulated, and I think that only 5-10 places have the license to deal with it. Since most cultivated aconite comes from Sichuan and virtually all the fu zi is processed at the same few facilities, it seems a bit odd that anyone would claim that they have the only line on authentic, Sichuan-grown, professionally-processed aconite. I'm certainly not doubting the quality of Heiner's fu zi nor his diligence in finding the best source possible. I'm sure he knows much more about fu zi than I do. But let's face it, most fu zi is grown in the same region and is processed in the same facilities, and the guy who is the most vocal about the fu zi sourcing issue also happens to be selling it. Power to him, I am all for scouting premium stuff and sharing it with the world. But obviously there is bias. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 The main aconites used as Chinese medicine are Chuan Wu and Cao Wu. Refer to the following link for the differences between Chuan Wu, Cao Wu, and Fu Zi. all of the information is there. http://www.56.com/u15/v_NDM3Mjk0OTI.html Usually an ordinary practitioner is very carefull in using Chuan Wu and Cao Wu, although some tcm doctors do use Fu Zi , but the premise is that the quanity of Fu Zi is less than 15g, at most not larger than 60g. In early discussion, some one does mention " Fire Spirit Branch " - " Huo Shen Pai " in China, The representitive one is Dr. Li Ke in Si Chuan Province. It is true that he uses large dosage like 100 -200g in his prescription to treat some diseases in particular the heart-degeration problems and had a good result. However, except him and few, nobody uses so large dosage. As to the source of Fu Zi, in China, we do not have such worries on the authentic source of Fu Zi. People can access Tong Ren Tang or Le Ren Tang... with confidence. These pharmacies will take care of this issue. Some big clinics do get their own source by themselves, but they usally have somebody who has the right skills to do that. It is true that the open market is less trustable. Specially for some expensive medicinals, one should be very carefull. --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: Eric Brand <smilinglotus Re: fu zi Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 11:54 PM , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > Thomas, > I couldn't agree more. There are many aconites used not only in > Chinese medicine and diet, but also in Ayurvedic and Tibetan > medicine. In fact, there are aconites with cold and hot properties > used in Tibet, one factor of determination being which side of a > mountain they grow on (full sun or shade!). > > I look forward to Eric Brand weighing in on this issue as well. As I understand it, many types of aconite are used in Chinese medicine. The Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian (Great Encyclopedia of Chinese Medicinals) alone contains 36 different aconite products, some of which come from totally different regions. For example, there is aconite from Taiwan in the South, from Sichuan in the West, and from Manchuria in the Northeast. The three most common aconites that we use are chuan wu, cao wu, and fu zi. Chuan wu and fu zi come from the same plant (central and accessory root), and this plant is thought to be the best from Sichuan (thus the name chuan wu). Cao wu (wild aconite) comes from all over, especially the Northeast. There are very few factories in China that are licensed to process aconite. It is very poisonous and highly regulated, and I think that only 5-10 places have the license to deal with it. Since most cultivated aconite comes from Sichuan and virtually all the fu zi is processed at the same few facilities, it seems a bit odd that anyone would claim that they have the only line on authentic, Sichuan-grown, professionally- processed aconite. I'm certainly not doubting the quality of Heiner's fu zi nor his diligence in finding the best source possible. I'm sure he knows much more about fu zi than I do. But let's face it, most fu zi is grown in the same region and is processed in the same facilities, and the guy who is the most vocal about the fu zi sourcing issue also happens to be selling it. Power to him, I am all for scouting premium stuff and sharing it with the world. But obviously there is bias. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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