Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 When I pointed this out a few years ago to one my Chinese colleagues, who is very " modern " I was expecting an affirmation of these " new age " distortions. I was a bit surprised when he said that if these points didn't have a " spiritual component " they wouldn't have tian in their names. Hmmmmm.... curiouser and curiouser.... Doug Here is a very interesting article on Windows of the Sky points by John McDonald. The author essentially has scoured the literature to trace the transmission of the concept, and it appears to be essentially a Western fabrication with no evidence of historical use in Chinese medicine. On a related note, I have a bridge for sale if anyone is interested. http://www.tcmcentral.com/TCM/Acu%20Edu/Library%20Articles/Library_Articles_Acup\ \ uncture_05.html Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 , " " wrote: > > When I pointed this out a few years ago to one my Chinese colleagues, who is very " modern " I was expecting an affirmation of these " new age " distortions. I was a bit surprised when he said that if these points didn't have a " spiritual component " they wouldn't have tian in their names. Certainly I am no expert on this issue. I've never researched or even looked into the issue of window of the sky points myself, so I would be easily swayed if anyone presented evidence to the contrary... It may well be that these points do have great clinical value, or that needling all points that have the words heaven or spirit in them can treat any psychological disease. But is there actually any evidence of this? Have the Chinese spent thousands of years developing diagnosis when they could have just needled all the points with pretty names for superior results all along? If there has never been a category of points called " window of the sky " points in Chinese medical history, that fact is significant because people have made a big deal out of this concept in the West. Obviously this is just the tip of the iceberg, as thousands of practitioners and patients have based their entire lives and health on many Western inventions with acupuncture, with windows of the sky being only a tiny portion of the " innovations. " There are entire systems of practice that people swear by that are essentially the personal creation of this or that guru figure, but who am I to suggest that these things don't work? It's not like traditional acupuncture encompassed every achievement that acupuncture is capable of, there could be all types of new innovations that work for people that were previously undiscovered. But nonetheless, if a patient is coming to us for traditional medicine, don't we have a responsibility to be informed about which things are totally experimental and guru-based vs. things that have a verified history of clinical use? If someone comes to us because acupuncture has an 1800 year history of use, is it ethical to take their money and disregard that 1800 year history in favor of something that has only been used on human guinea pigs for 20 years? How many of these paying human guinea pigs are ever informed of the fact that they are receiving an experimental therapy that has never been a part of Chinese medicine? Would anyone like to go to an MD that ignored the pharmacological evidence base and just prescribed whatever drugs have beautiful trade names? Frankly, I don't think that the presence of the word " tian " (heaven or sky) in an acupoint necessarily has a lot of significance for spirituality, at least not spirituality as it relates to the Western concept of spiritual. Many points have names that include heaven, human, or earth, but in many instances these points could also be correlated to the upper, middle, and lower regions of the body (reflecting the heaven, human, earth divisions). Can we assume that all points with the word heaven are noble and spiritual and all that have the word earth are animal and base? What about points that are named based on anatomical landmarks? Do they lack spiritual value? Do head points and superficial needling actually make one more spiritual? For that matter, is it ethically ok to superimpose our own idea of spirituality onto Chinese medicine instead of attempting to understand CM on its own terms? Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here. My questions aren't directed at you, Doug, I'm just babbling about general ethics. If we are the experts, it seems like we should know what is old and what is new. It doesn't make sense to be dogmatic about the old vs. the new, but it seems like common sense that we shouldn't deceive the public by taking something new and calling it something old. If one's patients want to pay for something that has no historical basis, I have no problem with anyone that wants to sell it to them with full disclosure. But if that person is going to call it traditional Chinese medicine and sell it to the public under the same name as what the rest of us do, I have to draw the line. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Eric, Doug, We are going to have a panel discussion at PCOM in a few weeks on " Spirit and " , as it continues to be an issue that confuses many in our field, and confounds patient expectations. I'd have to say that Eric is right about t points in the upper body/neck/ head region having the name tian/heaven because of their location. However, we should also remember that in the Su Wen, that human beings are said to stand between heaven and earth, and that there is a microcosm/macrocosm relationship between humans and the universe at large. I don't know if that is 'spiritual', but it can be very inspiring to relate to Chinese medicine as a meditation on life and the universe, and humanity's connection to the natural world around us. I don't think acupuncture should be used as an excuse for 'past life regression' using window to the sky points, or that we should mislead people into thinking that specific acupuncture points are going to give them instant enlightenment because of their poetic names. We should look to the experience of 1800 years of physicians who practiced this medicine, and have a solid foundation beneath our feet before we reach for the sky. . . We really need to ask ourselves what 'spiritual' means, and how it applies to Chinese medicine as the Chinese saw it for all these centuries before superimposing our own values on the subject. On Jun 11, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Eric Brand wrote: > > > , " " > wrote: > > > > When I pointed this out a few years ago to one my Chinese > colleagues, who is very " modern " I was expecting an affirmation of > these " new age " distortions. I was a bit surprised when he said that > if these points didn't have a " spiritual component " they wouldn't > have tian in their names. > > Certainly I am no expert on this issue. I've never researched or > even looked into the issue of window of the sky points myself, so I > would be easily swayed if anyone presented evidence to the > contrary... It may well be that these points do have great clinical > value, or that needling all points that have the words heaven or > spirit in them can treat any psychological disease. But is there > actually any evidence of this? Have the Chinese spent thousands of > years developing diagnosis when they could have just needled all the > points with pretty names for superior results all along? > > If there has never been a category of points called " window of the > sky " points in Chinese medical history, that fact is significant > because people have made a big deal out of this concept in the West. > Obviously this is just the tip of the iceberg, as thousands of > practitioners and patients have based their entire lives and health > on many Western inventions with acupuncture, with windows of the sky > being only a tiny portion of the " innovations. " > > There are entire systems of practice that people swear by that are > essentially the personal creation of this or that guru figure, but > who am I to suggest that these things don't work? It's not like > traditional acupuncture encompassed every achievement that > acupuncture is capable of, there could be all types of new > innovations that work for people that were previously undiscovered. > But nonetheless, if a patient is coming to us for traditional > medicine, don't we have a responsibility to be informed about which > things are totally experimental and guru-based vs. things that have > a verified history of clinical use? If someone comes to us because > acupuncture has an 1800 year history of use, is it ethical to take > their money and disregard that 1800 year history in favor of > something that has only been used on human guinea pigs for 20 years? > How many of these paying human guinea pigs are ever informed of the > fact that they are receiving an experimental therapy that has never > been a part of Chinese medicine? Would anyone like to go to an MD > that ignored the pharmacological evidence base and just prescribed > whatever drugs have beautiful trade names? > > Frankly, I don't think that the presence of the word " tian " (heaven > or sky) in an acupoint necessarily has a lot of significance for > spirituality, at least not spirituality as it relates to the Western > concept of spiritual. Many points have names that include heaven, > human, or earth, but in many instances these points could also be > correlated to the upper, middle, and lower regions of the body > (reflecting the heaven, human, earth divisions). Can we assume that > all points with the word heaven are noble and spiritual and all that > have the word earth are animal and base? What about points that are > named based on anatomical landmarks? Do they lack spiritual value? > Do head points and superficial needling actually make one more > spiritual? For that matter, is it ethically ok to superimpose our > own idea of spirituality onto Chinese medicine instead of attempting > to understand CM on its own terms? > > Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here. My questions aren't > directed at you, Doug, I'm just babbling about general ethics. If we > are the experts, it seems like we should know what is old and what > is new. It doesn't make sense to be dogmatic about the old vs. the > new, but it seems like common sense that we shouldn't deceive the > public by taking something new and calling it something old. If > one's patients want to pay for something that has no historical > basis, I have no problem with anyone that wants to sell it to them > with full disclosure. But if that person is going to call it > traditional Chinese medicine and sell it to the public under the > same name as what the rest of us do, I have to draw the line. > > Eric > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Once again, well put, Eric. It is a conundrum. On the other hand can we ethically ignore the potential for these points when faced with a patient in need? I can see these points, primarily around the neck would be of use for those indeed of a clear head/heaven. I would draw the line, and perhaps is what you mean is well, at " selling " (uncertain to bogus) concepts to patients and then fulfilling them as self appointed enlightened practitioners. And in the name of .... Doug , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > , " " <taiqi@> wrote: > > > > When I pointed this out a few years ago to one my Chinese colleagues, who is very " modern " I was expecting an affirmation of these " new age " distortions. I was a bit surprised when he said that if these points didn't have a " spiritual component " they wouldn't have tian in their names. > > Certainly I am no expert on this issue. I've never researched or even looked into the issue of window of the sky points myself, so I would be easily swayed if anyone presented evidence to the contrary... It may well be that these points do have great clinical value, or that needling all points that have the words heaven or spirit in them can treat any psychological disease. But is there actually any evidence of this? Have the Chinese spent thousands of years developing diagnosis when they could have just needled all the points with pretty names for superior results all along? > > If there has never been a category of points called " window of the sky " points in Chinese medical history, that fact is significant because people have made a big deal out of this concept in the West. Obviously this is just the tip of the iceberg, as thousands of practitioners and patients have based their entire lives and health on many Western inventions with acupuncture, with windows of the sky being only a tiny portion of the " innovations. " > > There are entire systems of practice that people swear by that are essentially the personal creation of this or that guru figure, but who am I to suggest that these things don't work? It's not like traditional acupuncture encompassed every achievement that acupuncture is capable of, there could be all types of new innovations that work for people that were previously undiscovered. But nonetheless, if a patient is coming to us for traditional medicine, don't we have a responsibility to be informed about which things are totally experimental and guru-based vs. things that have a verified history of clinical use? If someone comes to us because acupuncture has an 1800 year history of use, is it ethical to take their money and disregard that 1800 year history in favor of something that has only been used on human guinea pigs for 20 years? How many of these paying human guinea pigs are ever informed of the fact that they are receiving an experimental therapy that has never been a part of Chinese medicine? Would anyone like to go to an MD that ignored the pharmacological evidence base and just prescribed whatever drugs have beautiful trade names? > > Frankly, I don't think that the presence of the word " tian " (heaven or sky) in an acupoint necessarily has a lot of significance for spirituality, at least not spirituality as it relates to the Western concept of spiritual. Many points have names that include heaven, human, or earth, but in many instances these points could also be correlated to the upper, middle, and lower regions of the body (reflecting the heaven, human, earth divisions). Can we assume that all points with the word heaven are noble and spiritual and all that have the word earth are animal and base? What about points that are named based on anatomical landmarks? Do they lack spiritual value? Do head points and superficial needling actually make one more spiritual? For that matter, is it ethically ok to superimpose our own idea of spirituality onto Chinese medicine instead of attempting to understand CM on its own terms? > > Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here. My questions aren't directed at you, Doug, I'm just babbling about general ethics. If we are the experts, it seems like we should know what is old and what is new. It doesn't make sense to be dogmatic about the old vs. the new, but it seems like common sense that we shouldn't deceive the public by taking something new and calling it something old. If one's patients want to pay for something that has no historical basis, I have no problem with anyone that wants to sell it to them with full disclosure. But if that person is going to call it traditional Chinese medicine and sell it to the public under the same name as what the rest of us do, I have to draw the line. > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 , <zrosenbe wrote: > However, we should also remember that in the Su Wen, that human beings > are said to stand between heaven and earth, and that there is a > microcosm/macrocosm relationship between humans and the universe at > large. I don't know if that is 'spiritual', but it can be very > inspiring to relate to Chinese medicine as a meditation on life and > the universe, and humanity's connection to the natural world around > us. Without a doubt. Well said. Indeed, the beauty of Chinese medicine is quite intact as it is. Chinese medicine doesn't need foreign concepts superimposed on it, it is already very profound. It has a simple eloquence that is easy to grasp but is incredibly deep. Many people bring " spirituality " with them wherever they go. It can add dimension to a human being, just like a strong knowledge of biomedicine can enhance a practitioner's potential. Yet Western spirituality and biomedicine have differences with Chinese medicine, and they should each be clearly understood and applied within their own framework. In clinic, we often need to process things with different parts of our brain simultaneously. For example, the biomedical track of our thoughts thinks, hmm, maybe endometriosis. The TCM part thinks, hmm, painful menstruation, caused by kidney yang vacuity with blood stasis. The spiritual part makes one want to be in touch, happy, and truly oneself so that one can best help the suffering person to feel truly in touch, happy, and herself, better able to do whatever it is that she is doing. Being a truly in-touch, positive human being (is that spiritual?) is certainly an important thing in life and society, just as qi and blood are essential in TCM and the heart's pumping mechanism is essential in WM. No matter what lens you are looking through, it is easiest to get where you need to be if you are in a state of balance and health. If one is using the TCM lens, then pattern diagnosis reliably makes a person healthier, more themselves, more in touch with whatever it is that they need to be in touch with. There is no way that all of the beauty of pattern differentiation and highly customized therapy can be matched with a random selection of points that happen to all have artistic names. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Well, yes, but... one would hope to be the practitioner who can see (when appropriate) a progression of diagnosis... endometriosis, blood stasis, spirit issues - or disease, syndrome, and (internal) cause. I don't see spirituality as a " value added " bonus of the practitioner but an integral part of the CM process. We may not want to separate it into the " new age- wu wu " of Western practice but it is still there to be utilized. There is no reason the " beauty of pattern differentiation and highly customized therapy " can't incorporate spiritual thought or shen concepts " as we know it " . :-) Doug , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > , <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > However, we should also remember that in the Su Wen, that human beings > > are said to stand between heaven and earth, and that there is a > > microcosm/macrocosm relationship between humans and the universe at > > large. I don't know if that is 'spiritual', but it can be very > > inspiring to relate to Chinese medicine as a meditation on life and > > the universe, and humanity's connection to the natural world around > > us. > > Without a doubt. Well said. > > Indeed, the beauty of Chinese medicine is quite intact as it is. Chinese medicine doesn't need foreign concepts superimposed on it, it is already very profound. It has a simple eloquence that is easy to grasp but is incredibly deep. > > Many people bring " spirituality " with them wherever they go. It can add dimension to a human being, just like a strong knowledge of biomedicine can enhance a practitioner's potential. Yet Western spirituality and biomedicine have differences with Chinese medicine, and they should each be clearly understood and applied within their own framework. In clinic, we often need to process things with different parts of our brain simultaneously. For example, the biomedical track of our thoughts thinks, hmm, maybe endometriosis. The TCM part thinks, hmm, painful menstruation, caused by kidney yang vacuity with blood stasis. The spiritual part makes one want to be in touch, happy, and truly oneself so that one can best help the suffering person to feel truly in touch, happy, and herself, better able to do whatever it is that she is doing. > > Being a truly in-touch, positive human being (is that spiritual?) is certainly an important thing in life and society, just as qi and blood are essential in TCM and the heart's pumping mechanism is essential in WM. No matter what lens you are looking through, it is easiest to get where you need to be if you are in a state of balance and health. If one is using the TCM lens, then pattern diagnosis reliably makes a person healthier, more themselves, more in touch with whatever it is that they need to be in touch with. There is no way that all of the beauty of pattern differentiation and highly customized therapy can be matched with a random selection of points that happen to all have artistic names. > > Eric Brand > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 In light of these recent posts, I want to share a little section of an article that I wrote in the 2008 Thieme Almanac on the meaning of shen (spirit) in Chinese medicine. My section can also be found online at my Blue Poppy blog at http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/06/05/on-the-concept-of-shen-\ spirit-in-chinese I'd highly recommend the original article in the Thieme Almanac, because it has different perspectives from a variety of practitioners. My own answer just comes straight from translation of the Chinese books, for whatever that's worth. The original article had an interesting premise. Various practitioners and scholars were asked to respond to questions such as: " What do you think `shen' is? Or how would you define the concept of `shen'? " I used a variety of Chinese medicine dictionaries, reference works, and other primary Chinese sources to come up with the following response to this first question: Shen is a concept that is elusive to a single definition. Like many Chinese words, its meaning varies depending on context and the characters that it is combined with. Generally translated as " spirit, " shen has many different contexts of use in Chinese medicine. The two most prevalent concepts relating to shen in day-to-day Chinese medical practice revolve around shen in the sense of general vitality, and shen in the sense of the spirit that is stored and governed by the heart. However, the use of the word shen in Chinese medicine extends beyond these two primary meanings, and a brief survey of definitions from Chinese medical dictionaries helps to elucidate these wider meanings. Arguably the widest meaning of the word shen is seen in one of Chinese medicine's most foundational texts, the Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen ( " Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon, Simple Questions " ). Here, the text states: " …that which cannot be fathomed [in terms of] yin and yang is spirit " ( & #38512; & #38525; & #19981; & #28204; & #35586; & #20043; & #31070;). Chinese medical dictionaries interpret this statement by suggesting that one meaning of the word shen is related to the manifestations and natural laws regarding substance, movement, and change in the natural world.[1] This is a very broad range of use and there is an inherent ambiguity of meaning present in the original statement; thus, such statements are challenging to translate and provide little ground for drawing firm conclusions. A far more common and straightforward meaning is reflected in the use of the word shen to refer to the outward manifestations of life and activity in the human body. In this context, shen is used to describe the complexion, the " spirit " in the eyes, language use and responsiveness, and activity and posture. Here, shen is similar to a sense of vitality or general animation, and its presence or absence is important in prognosis. It is worth noting that some Chinese texts define shen simply as jing shen, literally " essence-spirit. " Jing shen is used as a general word in the Chinese language that means energy, vigor, vitality; to have good jing shen is to be full of life. Note that because essence (jing) is the material foundation of shen, the shen is affected by changes in bowel and visceral function or other conditions of exuberance and debility that disrupt normal physiology. Yet another meaning of the word shen relates to its broader use as a governing force over all other physiologic and mental activity. The heart stores the shen, and the shen ultimately presides over all other activity in the human body. Still another use of the word shen can be seen in the context of vessel qi. When discussing pulse diagnosis, we speak of stomach, spirit (shen), and root. Here, these three factors are used as general prognostic indicators, since the three together form the basic features of a healthy pulse. Stomach qi is evident when the pulse is smooth, harmonious, and regular, while spirit is seen in the pulse by its suppleness and strength. Root is said to be present when the pulse can be felt at all three positions, particularly at the deep level.[2] The final major use of the word shen relates to thought and consciousness. The heart in Chinese medicine is the principle organ related to mental activity and it presides over the emotions. The heart governs the spirit-mind, and under normal physiologic conditions the mind is clear, vital, and responsive to the outside world. When there is pathology, the result is insomnia, forgetfulness, heart palpitations, or other signs of disturbance of the heart spirit. Despite my above summary of five meanings of shen as found in Chinese medical dictionaries, the word goes on and on in contexts beyond Chinese medicine. For example, the deities and immortalized figures seen in temples are all shen, though in English we usually refer to them as gods. The traditional supernatural protectors responsible for patrolling the neighborhood are also shen. The most famous of the lower-level supernatural police are the type of shen known as tu ti gong, and their shrines are found even within major metropolitan areas like Taipei. Nonetheless, to my knowledge the tu ti gong and their pantheon of associates remain largely uninvolved in the affairs of medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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