Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of the role of detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools learning about various methods of general detoxification, fasting, etc. Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the model. Treatment is always based on patterns....so, we don't have/need de-tox Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on food is bad for you. So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it's just not part of the model Stephen Woodley Lac " I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of " not part of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly is the way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is probably older than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and there is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder whether detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. I've always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and historically there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat clearing and purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese medicine goes further in terms of identifying the specific toxin. If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other symptoms, isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 While it is true that modern TCM teaches little of detoxing, it was used by the Purge school. Since starvation was rampant during Mao's time, purging was not emphasized. Ayurveda developed out of seeing fat cats that ate too much or had too much sex. Its what TCM will develop this generation with the event of KFC, McDonald's, smoking, stress, modern lifestyle, etc. in China. On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierrawrote: > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of the > role of > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools > learning about various methods of general detoxification, > fasting, etc. > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > model. > > Treatment is always based on patterns....so, we don't have/need > de-tox > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on > food is bad for you. > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it's just not part of > the model > > Stephen Woodley Lac " > > > > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of " not part > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly is the > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is probably > older > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and there > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder > whether > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. I've > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and historically > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat clearing > and > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese medicine goes > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin. > > > > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other symptoms, > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 For those of you living in China, are there any current detox fads that you are seeing in clinics, spas, in popular literature etc.? Stephen, do you remember the name of the fellow that Arnaud spent time with in rural China who was doing all the harsh expellent therapy for a variety of conditions? While it doesn't fit into the standardized TCM model, wouldn't you call this a version of detoxing? I would also consider that the use of herbs such as Wuweizi and Danshen based on a pharmacological understanding that they activate detoxification pathways of the Liver as more akin to a Naturopathic model of detox than to a pattern based diagnostic model that is taught in schools here or in a more classical model. I know that there are some of you have spent time in dermatology clinics in China, are the pharmacodynamics of herbs in this field? Ben _______________ Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 I think the big difference is that CM has the concept of Zheng Qi in which our way of dealing with Xie is to boost Zheng. Doug , ben zappin <btz23 wrote: > For those of you living in China, are there any current detox fads that you are seeing in clinics, spas, in popular literature etc.? > > > > Stephen, do you remember the name of the fellow that Arnaud spent time with in rural China who was doing all the harsh expellent therapy for a variety of conditions? While it doesn't fit into the standardized TCM model, wouldn't you call this a version of detoxing? > > > > I would also consider that the use of herbs such as Wuweizi and Danshen based on a pharmacological understanding that they activate detoxification pathways of the Liver as more akin to a Naturopathic model of detox than to a pattern based diagnostic model that is taught in schools here or in a more classical model. > > > > I know that there are some of you have spent time in dermatology clinics in China, are the pharmacodynamics of herbs in this field? > > > > Ben > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Ben,Michael and all Wow...never thought this would come up... I'll try to put more thought into a response later... but initially Where to start? Micheal said: I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of " not part of the model?. Stephen: Quote?!? I will look for quotes from the classics to support this... though I never asserted that any specific quote exists Bian Zheng Lun Zhi = treatment based on pattern discrimination to treat otherwise is contradictory to the fundamental tenets that define Chinese medicine - I don't think more has to be said- " Detox " Flushing toxins out of the kidney tissue - Liver detoxification - coffee enemas - NAS - selenium All of these seem to be administered on an assumption that intervention is needed. 1) I don't know of any classical source that sees the organs in this biomedically defined manner 2) I don't know of any classical source that has a concept of " toxin " as proposed by detoxifiers... and misinterpreting " Du " toxin as the same thing would be off base. 3) I would strongly submit that treating based on assumptions and not patterns is in opposition to Chinese medicine - thus my assertion that these practices are anti-thetical to CM Detoxing is a concept this concept doesn't exist in CM just because we use herbs that purge doesn't mean that this concept ever existed however, I am open to learning if someone can quote something from the classics that supports this idea. Michael said: Considering that Ayurveda is probably older than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method Stephen: Whatever is done in Ayurveda is not relevant. Conflation leads us down a wrong path. Ben said: I would also consider that the use of herbs such as Wuweizi and Danshen based on a pharmacological understanding that they activate detoxification pathways of the Liver as more akin to a Naturopathic model of detox than to a pattern based diagnostic model that is taught in schools here or in a more classical model. Stephen: Exactly, Ben, just because some medicinal used in Chinese medicine can be interpreted in another paradigm doesn't mean that said paradigm is relevant to CM. Well said! Douglas said: I think the big difference is that CM has the concept of Zheng Qi in which our way of dealing with Xie is to boost Zheng Stephen: Bullseye, Douglas, CM is more functional medicine! Just because something is done is a Spa in China, doesn't make the procedure bona fide Chinese medicine...no matter who is doing it $$$ Before things get heated... I am not trashing anybody for believing in or practicing " detox " . I am only asserting that it's in opposition to Chinese medical thinking. Just because we have herbs that purge doesn't equate the attacking method with coffee enemas. What is done and why defines our intention and our practice. Su Wen 82 Qi Bo said: " Renal parenchyma benefit greatly from periodic flushing much as a sewer would. However, this thinking is antithetical to our medicine... " Admittedly, this is a rough translation and there are those who challenge the authenticity of Su Wen 82, but it's a start. keep it light Stephen Woodley LAc -- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Michael, This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine. Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when apparently it is not. On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of > the > role of > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools > learning about various methods of general detoxification, > fasting, etc. > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > model. > > Treatment is always based on patterns....so, we don't have/need > de-tox > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on > food is bad for you. > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it's just not part of > the model > > Stephen Woodley Lac " > > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of > " not part > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly > is the > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is > probably older > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and > there > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder > whether > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. > I've > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and > historically > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat > clearing and > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese > medicine goes > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin. > > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other > symptoms, > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Dear Z'ev, Michael and all, In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of the indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du, which they identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat collects and clumps in the intestines and also damages the Blood collaterals. The turbid dampness aspect has a tendency to obstruct the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and stasis of Qi and Blood. This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in with the stool or after defacation.... " Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept of detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels being overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that implies a positive state, and toxification is anything but), Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning Dampness or Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about. Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is reading this!) Respectfully, --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe wrote: <zrosenbe Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM Michael, This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine. Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when apparently it is not. On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of > the > role of > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools > learning about various methods of general detoxification, > fasting, etc. > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > model. > > Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need > de-tox > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on > food is bad for you. > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of > the model > > Stephen Woodley Lac " > > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of > " not part > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly > is the > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is > probably older > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and > there > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder > whether > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. > I've > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and > historically > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat > clearing and > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese > medicine goes > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin. > > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other > symptoms, > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 This is a very interesting topic to me, as I see so many patients coming in after seeing other medical modalities like Naturopathic medicine for skin disorders. Most of the time they have tried several different de-toxifying/ cleansing methods. Perhaps the cleanse involved Milk thistle seeds and elderberry and involved dietary changes and even fasting. They are told that their skin problem is because the liver is burdened. Unfortunately the reason these patients have come to see me is because the " cleanse " didn't do what they came in for, which was to heal their skin. Then a patient tries a focused chinese herbal remedy, based on their " pattern " and gets results, perhaps even a cure. Does this mean that the chinese herbal formula didn't have a cleansing or liver de-toxifying effect? It very well may have. Research on individual herbs on Pub Med tells us so. Perhaps the Chinese didn't use the terminology of cleansing as we associate it with other healing methods. But to say that a cleansing action isn't happening would be a mistake. I always like to say to patients that Chinese herbal medicine works as a very focused and individual type of cleansing. De-toxifying " pathogens " that need to be cleansed and strengthening body systems that need to be strengthened. As compared to systems of thought that try to use very general, one size fits all, approaches. Patients can relate to language that makes sense to them in the paradigm that there are used to, while still keeping true to the Chinese philosophies. Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Hi All, (1) Many Chinese medicinals have actions that protect LV against toxins. Hepatoprotective Hbs include: Baijiangcao; Baishao; Baizhu; Banyacai; Banzhilian; Biejia; Bulaocao; Chaihu; Chuanxinlian; Chuipencao; Cilaoya; Dahuang; Daji (Cirsium); Dangyao; DASUAN; Dazao; Ercha; Ezhu (Guangxi); Fuling; Gancao; Gouqigen; Gouqizi; Guizhi (Zhi); Heilaohugen; Heshouwu; Hongjingtian; Huajiao; Huzhang; Jianghuang; Jiaogulan; Jinsitao; Jinyinhua; Jisongrong; Jixuecao; Kushen; Laoguancao; Lianqiao; Lingzhi; Longdancao; Luhui; Mayi; Meirenjiaogen; Mohanlian; Mugua; Muxu; Nuzhenzi; Pugongying; Qinghao; Qingyedan; Qiuguozijinshu; Sanqi; Shaji; Shandougen; Shechuangzi; Shengjiang; Shengma; Shiliuhua; Shuifeiji; Shuifeiji; Shuiqin; Tianguadi; Weilingxian; Wenjing; Wuweizi; Wuzhuyu; Xianggu; Xiangjincai; Xiaoji (Cirsium / Cephalanoploris); Xiecaogen; Xiheliu; Xiyangshen; Yangjinhua; Yinchenhao; Yunzhi; Zexie; Zhizi; Zhuling; Zishiying; (2) Other Chinese medicinals have actions that protect KI against toxins. Renoprotective Hbs include: Ejiao; Leigongteng; Renshen; Tufuling. Indeed, many other Hbs that Tone KI and / or act as Diuretics, may have Renoprotective effects also. (3) Some medicinals have BOTH actions. Examples of Dual Hepatoprotective + Renoprotective Hbs include: Danggui; Dahuang; Danshen; Dongchongxiacao; Gegen; Huangqi; Lurong; As LV and KI are the two main rogans involved in detox, it could be argued that a selection of Hbs from List 3, possibly fortified with 1- 2 herbs from List 1 + 2, could be used as a general Detox Formula. Comments? Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Very simply, Phil, All of these terms and interpretations (hepatoprotective, renoprotective), are modern physiological concepts of biomedicine based on pharmacological understandings or interpretations of Chinese medicinals. They are entirely separate from Chinese medical theory and data of many centuries. In other words, the Chinese shen/kidney is not an exact equivalent of the modern physiological kidney, the Chinese gan/liver is not an exact physiological equivalent of the modern liver. The Chinese were speaking of visceral systems of function with some overlaps but not equivalents of modern physiology, and it is a mistake, in my opinion, to limit the Chinese medical tradition to these intrepretations. On Jun 13, 2009, at 12:26 PM, wrote: > > > Hi All, > > (1) Many Chinese medicinals have actions that protect LV against > toxins. Hepatoprotective Hbs include: > > Baijiangcao; Baishao; Baizhu; Banyacai; Banzhilian; Biejia; Bulaocao; > Chaihu; Chuanxinlian; Chuipencao; Cilaoya; Dahuang; Daji (Cirsium); > Dangyao; DASUAN; Dazao; Ercha; Ezhu (Guangxi); Fuling; Gancao; > Gouqigen; Gouqizi; Guizhi (Zhi); Heilaohugen; Heshouwu; Hongjingtian; > Huajiao; Huzhang; Jianghuang; Jiaogulan; Jinsitao; Jinyinhua; > Jisongrong; Jixuecao; Kushen; Laoguancao; Lianqiao; Lingzhi; > Longdancao; Luhui; Mayi; Meirenjiaogen; Mohanlian; Mugua; Muxu; > Nuzhenzi; Pugongying; Qinghao; Qingyedan; Qiuguozijinshu; Sanqi; > Shaji; Shandougen; Shechuangzi; Shengjiang; Shengma; Shiliuhua; > Shuifeiji; Shuifeiji; Shuiqin; Tianguadi; Weilingxian; Wenjing; > Wuweizi; Wuzhuyu; Xianggu; Xiangjincai; Xiaoji (Cirsium / > Cephalanoploris); Xiecaogen; Xiheliu; Xiyangshen; Yangjinhua; > Yinchenhao; Yunzhi; Zexie; Zhizi; Zhuling; Zishiying; > > (2) Other Chinese medicinals have actions that protect KI against > toxins. Renoprotective Hbs include: > > Ejiao; Leigongteng; Renshen; Tufuling. > > Indeed, many other Hbs that Tone KI and / or act as Diuretics, may > have Renoprotective effects also. > > (3) Some medicinals have BOTH actions. Examples of Dual > Hepatoprotective + Renoprotective Hbs include: > Danggui; Dahuang; Danshen; Dongchongxiacao; Gegen; Huangqi; Lurong; > > As LV and KI are the two main rogans involved in detox, it could be > argued that a selection of Hbs from List 3, possibly fortified with 1- > 2 herbs from List 1 + 2, could be used as a general Detox Formula. > > Comments? > > Best regards, > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yehuda, I think the main dividing line is that what you are describing with huai hua san is a very specific pattern/condition, with a specific treatment, with specific diagnostic parameters and a relatively short length of treatment time. This is very different than the general naturopathic modality of detoxification, which is a more generalized 'organ cleansing' not necessarily related to a pattern diagnosis and treatment plan. Looking again at Stephen Woodley's example of liver detoxification for skin disease, this implies a physiological connection between liver toxicity (and what specifically do we mean by this?) and a manifestation of skin disease. But this is only one possible cause of a skin condition, and there are many skin diseases with multiple manifestations, causes and patterns in Chinese medicine, and many liver disharmonies, of which a specific set MAY contribute to skin disorders. Again, we are discussing apples and oranges. Naturopathic medicine has its own specific criteria based on physiological analysis of the human organism, Chinese medicine has its own criteria of visceral systems, diagnosis, and pattern differentiation. Too often we superimpose these ideas on what Chinese medicine has to say. On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:19 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Dear Z'ev, Michael and all, > > In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of > the indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du, > which they identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat > collects and clumps in the intestines and also damages the Blood > collaterals. The turbid dampness aspect has a tendency to obstruct > the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and stasis of Qi and Blood. > This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in with the > stool or after defacation.... " > > Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept > of detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels > being overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that > implies a positive state, and toxification is anything but), > > Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning > Dampness or > Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about. > > Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is > reading this!) > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe wrote: > > <zrosenbe > Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? > > Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM > > Michael, > This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic > medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete > 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find > anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine. > Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based > prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific > pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem > is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and > fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our > profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to > medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms > of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when > apparently it is not. > > > On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > > > > > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of > > the > > role of > > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model > > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. > > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools > > learning about various methods of general detoxification, > > fasting, etc. > > > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > > model. > > > > Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need > > de-tox > > > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early > > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on > > food is bad for you. > > > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of > > the model > > > > Stephen Woodley Lac " > > > > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of > > " not part > > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly > > is the > > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is > > probably older > > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and > > there > > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder > > whether > > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. > > I've > > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and > > historically > > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat > > clearing and > > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese > > medicine goes > > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin. > > > > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other > > symptoms, > > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Right on target. Toxicity as a concept in naturopathic medicine is much broader, and more generalized. It is not interchangeable with du/ toxin of Chinese medicine. On Jun 12, 2009, at 2:04 PM, stephen woodley wrote: > 1) I don't know of any classical source that sees the organs in this > biomedically defined manner > 2) I don't know of any classical source that has a concept of > " toxin " as > proposed by detoxifiers... > and misinterpreting " Du " toxin as the same thing would be off base. > 3) I would strongly submit that treating based on assumptions and not > patterns is in opposition to Chinese medicine - thus my assertion that > these practices are anti-thetical to CM Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention is a major problem that I have with both naturopathic/eclectic medicine and western Biomedicine as well: their lack of diagnostic and pattern specificity. The observation I was making was that it seemed to me that damp heat complicated by stasis creates a dynamic of toxicity, but as you say the approach we would take, to clear heat, dry dampness and move the blood to disinhibit stasis, though yielding a net result of detoxification, should not be viewed as detoxing, an oversimplification. Frequently, I have patients who ask me my opinion of whether they should go through a liver or gall bladder detox, or whether they should consider colonic irrigation therapy. On the whole they are weak, vacuous patients, and I tell them that all the therapies will do, in their case, is further deplete them. I had a patient last week who felt that he had parasites and wanted to detox. Number one, I told him to order a Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis(CDSA), and then we could talk further. If one suspects liver toxicity, again, first I would suggest checking the enzymatic levels of liver function test. If they are high or in the high normal range, I would consider how they corroborate with tongue, pulses, eyes and nails. I believe that we essentially agree, but I would add that even though we are practicing Chinese medicine, it behooves us to utilize all useful and accurate tools that are available to us diagnostically. --- On Sat, 6/13/09, <zrosenbe wrote: <zrosenbe Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? Saturday, June 13, 2009, 10:37 PM Yehuda, I think the main dividing line is that what you are describing with huai hua san is a very specific pattern/condition, with a specific treatment, with specific diagnostic parameters and a relatively short length of treatment time. This is very different than the general naturopathic modality of detoxification, which is a more generalized 'organ cleansing' not necessarily related to a pattern diagnosis and treatment plan. Looking again at Stephen Woodley's example of liver detoxification for skin disease, this implies a physiological connection between liver toxicity (and what specifically do we mean by this?) and a manifestation of skin disease. But this is only one possible cause of a skin condition, and there are many skin diseases with multiple manifestations, causes and patterns in Chinese medicine, and many liver disharmonies, of which a specific set MAY contribute to skin disorders. Again, we are discussing apples and oranges. Naturopathic medicine has its own specific criteria based on physiological analysis of the human organism, Chinese medicine has its own criteria of visceral systems, diagnosis, and pattern differentiation. Too often we superimpose these ideas on what Chinese medicine has to say. On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:19 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Dear Z'ev, Michael and all, > > In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of > the indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du, > which they identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat > collects and clumps in the intestines and also damages the Blood > collaterals. The turbid dampness aspect has a tendency to obstruct > the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and stasis of Qi and Blood. > This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in with the > stool or after defacation.. .. " > > Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept > of detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels > being overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that > implies a positive state, and toxification is anything but), > > Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning > Dampness or > Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about. > > Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is > reading this!) > > Respectfully, > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote: > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? > > Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM > > Michael, > This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic > medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete > 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find > anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine. > Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based > prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific > pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem > is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and > fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our > profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to > medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms > of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when > apparently it is not. > > > On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > > > > > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of > > the > > role of > > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model > > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. > > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools > > learning about various methods of general detoxification, > > fasting, etc. > > > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > > model. > > > > Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need > > de-tox > > > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early > > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on > > food is bad for you. > > > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of > > the model > > > > Stephen Woodley Lac " > > > > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of > > " not part > > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly > > is the > > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is > > probably older > > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and > > there > > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder > > whether > > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. > > I've > > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and > > historically > > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat > > clearing and > > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese > > medicine goes > > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin. > > > > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other > > symptoms, > > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Of the 8 herbal treatment methods... pg. xxvi (Scheid, Bensky Formulas 2nd edition) sweating (han fa) (not a form of detox?) " ... so that the pores open and *pathogenic influences* in the exterior or other superficial levels of the body can be released with the sweat " vomiting (tu fa) (not a form of detox?) " ... so that phlegm, stagnant food or *toxic matter* stuck in the throat, chest, or stomach cavity can be expelled through the mouth " Draining downward (xia fa) (not a form of detox?) " ...to cleanse the bowels and expels *pathogens with form* through the rectum " Clearing (qing fa) (not a form of detox?) " ...to eliminate heat, fire and their associated *toxicity* from the body " According to this text, it seems pretty clear that Chinese herbalism/formulaism has these detoxifying functions (maybe not from the quoted classics... the ones listed in the 2nd edition Formulas and Strategies from the Nei jing do not make this clear), but through the applications of the herbs and formulas through the centuries. For instance, the vomiting method (tu fa) was used specifically for the instance of a patient ingestion poisons. Also, If we consider parasites (gu) a toxin, than the Reducing (xiao fa) method would also apply as this method is used for clumping, accumulations and parasitic infestation. If we consider epidemic infestation as toxins, than the sweating method (han fa) and the clearing method (qing fa) would also be applicable. Is there a history of colonics in Chinese medicine? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I am not sure all the old Eclectics called it detoxification. Maybe purging, but there are similar readings in Chinese medicine. A Dr. Zhang (long time ago, I think) talked about ways to detoxify. The old forms of " vomit, sweat and poop " , used today in western herbal medicine. They had no idea of homeopathy, so the detoxification, or draining, as many call it would have to be understood from its effects on a diagnosed patient rather than from direct experience of the material. David Molony On Jun 14, 2009, at 8:37:45 PM, " " <zrosenbe wrote: I also don't agree that modern Chinese medicine has the concept of 'detoxification', at least not in the sense of modern naturopathic medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Z'ev, Yehuda, et all, This is the beauty of Chinese medicine. That by focusing on the pattern as we see manifesting in a patient, de-toxification may inevitably happen. The main thing is that we need to stay focused on the main issues that are manifesting and treat them. If a patient comes in for a skin problem, then treat it and look for change. If we know that they have elevated ALT/AST then add some Hu Zhang or Chai Hu, particularly if the herb fits the pattern. I just don't understand how some therapists can give advice, in the form of offering cleansing techniques, still see no change after several months in the patients main complaint, but still tell them that it is because there is deeper levels of " toxicity " in them, encouraging a patient to keep going on there regime. How long does a patient need to follow a regime, cleansing or otherwise, until they see a change in there condition? For me, for most issues, if I see no change after say 8 weeks, then I am pretty suspicious of my own approach. Perhaps some aggressive forms of Cancer would be longer. My point is that we as practitioners should have some sort of grasp on a time frame for changes to occur, so as to judge the effectiveness of our treatment and accuracy of our diagnosis. As I mentioned in the past, my wife had widespread head to toe eczema for most of her life. She had seen many therapists in the past and was told that she was allergic to everything. Different, famous, naturopathic doctors told her that she needed to cleanse out the heavy metals, pesticides, chemicals, etc. from her body in order for her to see change. Well she tried their advice. Tried cleanse after cleanse after chelation therapy, after extreme food restrictive diets. She even tried a 40 day juice and soup broth cleanse. Well guess what? Her skin NEVER improved. Not even once. Her and her family were just so desperate for her to have relief that they were willing to try these cleansing approaches for many years. A very costly venture to say the least, particularly since no change was experienced. Then three months on Chinese herbal remedies, a few dietary adjustments with no bread and sugar and sweet fruits, and her eczema is gone. 7 years later it is still gone. 7 years later and she can actually eat food, like dairy that used to put her in the hospital with anaphalexis, and she is fine. Healthy! Again, by treating her Chinese medical pattern in a well crafted focused way, my wife is basically cured of a very stubborn ailment. Did a cleansing action happen along the way? Perhaps so, but it certainly was not the main approach. I see people like my wife come into the clinic all the time, who are told there issue is due to some heavy metal or some pesticide or liver fluke or yaddy yadda yadda.... Perhaps there is an element of truth to this. But show me a person on planet earth who does not have this affliction?? I truly believe that our bodies will figure out ways to deal with burdens that it has upon it, particularly if we focus a treatment on pattern discrimination. I had a couple come into the clinic last week for fertility issues. They had been trying to conceive for the past 4 years, 2 of those years were spent seeing a naturopathic doctor who had them on all kinds of vigorous cleansing regimes. They were honest in saying that it cost thousands. They came to me because they were feeling like how much cleansing can they do? Perhaps there was another way of looking at their journey. Whenever I see patients like this, the first thing I ask is, " Great, you saw such and such a practitioner for such and such amount of time. Tell me what changes did you notice? " . I educate them that in Chinese medicine, fertility optimization is based on 2 things- General health and the woman's menstrual cycle, and that these are the two areas that I look for change to tell me that their ability to carry a pregnancy is enhanced. Now this couple told me that they didn't notice any change in these areas. In fact, the woman still had menses pain, still had a delayed cycle, still had lots of PMS- which included a lot of ACNE on her face, chest, and back. I would have thought that the so called " cleansing " would have helped at least her acne. But no. Again, cleansing and de-toxifying techniques as they are practiced today by Natural Doctors, may very well serve a purpose. I would just hope that if a patient comes in to see them and gives them a large portion of their earnings, that if it doesn't work and the main issues are not better, they have the integrity to say that their regime didn't work and that they may want to try :-) Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Agreed, But when using eclectic methods, we must be cautious not to superimpose the 'clinical gaze' of one system on another. On Jun 14, 2009, at 1:32 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > > I believe that we essentially agree, but I would add that even > though we are practicing Chinese medicine, it behooves us to utilize > all useful and accurate tools that are available to us diagnostically. > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 6/13/09, <zrosenbe wrote: > > <zrosenbe > Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? > > Saturday, June 13, 2009, 10:37 PM > > Yehuda, > I think the main dividing line is that what you are describing > with huai hua san is a very specific pattern/condition, with a > specific treatment, with specific diagnostic parameters and a > relatively short length of treatment time. This is very different > than the general naturopathic modality of detoxification, which is a > more generalized 'organ cleansing' not necessarily related to a > pattern diagnosis and treatment plan. Looking again at Stephen > Woodley's example of liver detoxification for skin disease, this > implies a physiological connection between liver toxicity (and what > specifically do we mean by this?) and a manifestation of skin > disease. But this is only one possible cause of a skin condition, and > there are many skin diseases with multiple manifestations, causes and > patterns in Chinese medicine, and many liver disharmonies, of which a > specific set MAY contribute to skin disorders. > > Again, we are discussing apples and oranges. Naturopathic > medicine has its own specific criteria based on physiological analysis > of the human organism, Chinese medicine has its own criteria of > visceral systems, diagnosis, and pattern differentiation. Too often > we superimpose these ideas on what Chinese medicine has to say. > > > On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:19 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Z'ev, Michael and all, > > > > In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of > > the indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du, > > which they identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat > > collects and clumps in the intestines and also damages the Blood > > collaterals. The turbid dampness aspect has a tendency to obstruct > > the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and stasis of Qi and Blood. > > This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in with the > > stool or after defacation.. .. " > > > > Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept > > of detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels > > being overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that > > implies a positive state, and toxification is anything but), > > > > Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning > > Dampness or > > Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about. > > > > Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is > > reading this!) > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote: > > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> > > Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? > > > > Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM > > > > Michael, > > This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic > > medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete > > 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find > > anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine. > > Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based > > prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific > > pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the > problem > > is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and > > fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our > > profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to > > medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms > > of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there > when > > apparently it is not. > > > > > > On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little > concept of > > > the > > > role of > > > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model > > > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. > > > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools > > > learning about various methods of general detoxification, > > > fasting, etc. > > > > > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > > > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > > > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > > > model. > > > > > > Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need > > > de-tox > > > > > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early > > > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on > > > food is bad for you. > > > > > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of > > > the model > > > > > > Stephen Woodley Lac " > > > > > > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of > > > " not part > > > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it > certainly > > > is the > > > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is > > > probably older > > > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method > and > > > there > > > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I > wonder > > > whether > > > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary > TCM. > > > I've > > > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and > > > historically > > > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat > > > clearing and > > > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese > > > medicine goes > > > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin. > > > > > > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other > > > symptoms, > > > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Are, How are you defining hepatoprotective and how do you verify this in your patient population? - On Behalf Of Are Thoresen Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:00 PM SV: Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? Hi Ben, I have used it for many years internally, to lots of patients, and I am amazed by the hepatoprotective abilities of this plant. So, it is just based on my clinical experience. Are Are, You're going to raise some hackles w/ the Western herb folks here by saying Symphytum officianale is hepatoprotective. I think the best article to brush up on the controversy around the Comfrey and pyrrolizidine alkaloids, as well as the occurance of these compounds in Chinese herbs and their potentially hepatotoxic effect is here: http://www.itmonlin <http://www.itmonline.org/arts/pas.htm> e.org/arts/pas.htm Having a real love for the plant, I use it topically all the time, but I've never heard or read of it being hepatoprotective. Would you care to divulge what sources have informed you use of this plant and what you've seen clinically to confirm your belief. Respectfully, Ben Zappin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Yehuda said: I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention is a major problem that I have with both naturopathic/eclectic medicine and western Biomedicine as well: their lack of diagnostic and pattern specificity. Thomas: Yehuda, lumping Naturopathic and Eclectic medicine together is a mistake, AND suggesting that Eclectic medicine lacked diagnostic and pattern specificity is an ignorant statement. I suggest you get yourself a copy of Specific Diagnosis by Prof. Scudder. Eclectic medicine did an enormous amount of refining of diagnostics and treatment during its very short life-span, and I would suggest that if it not for Flexnor Report (financed by Carnegie because of his interest in supporting the AMA, which was prescribing drugs from companies that he had financial interest in) we would likely have a system of medicine that although different from Chinese medicine would likely be its rival when considering outcomes alone. Furthermore, some of the language used by the Eclectics and the Physiomedicalists (a different system which also sprang to life in 19th Century America) was remarkably similar to the ways we think of plants and the human system in CM. Naturopathic medicine is the great borrower, although it started in Germany, in America it has become a conglomerate of many different systems, often offering little focus when practitioners find difficulty resolving illness presented to them by their patients. I don't think it is a deficiency of the system as much as a deficiency of education and the individual practitioners. My Two Cents (or Fen), Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi All, & Z'ev, Z'ev wrote: > Very simply, Phil, All these terms & interpretations (hepatoprotective, > renoprotective), are modern physiological concepts of biomedicine based > on pharmacological understandings or interpretations of Chinese > medicinals. They are entirely separate from Chinese medical theory and > data of many centuries. In other words, the Chinese shen/kidney is not > an exact equivalent of the modern physiological kidney, the Chinese > gan/liver is not an exact physiological equivalent of the modern liver ... Z'ev, with respect, I know that ...TCM developed in its own place and time. IMO, we must NOT tie ourselves to theories and practices that are centuries old. Medicine moves on daily. IMO, we should use the best principles and theories from all useful sources, including TCM and WM. Z'ev, IMO such thinking (combination of TCM herbal data + theory with Biomedical data and theory) is an ADVANCE (not a hindrance or negation) on BOTH systems. IMO, though TCM may not have had this concept of detox, modern Chinese and Kampo medicine clearly have it. My concept of detox is NOT to use Clear Heat + Resolve Toxin herbs to attack Heat and Toxin directly, but rather to activate the body's main detox and excretion processes. Thus, depending on the main organs affected and the main SSs, I would aim to Tone / Nourish LV-KI (boost LV-KI metabolism), Rectify (Tone / Move) Qi-Xue, Nourish Bone / Marrow, enhance sweating, boost the immune system, etc. If indicated, some herbs to Clear Heat + Resolve Toxin might be added. In the case of Yinxu Heat (for example in men after surgical or chemical castration), one might add herbs to Tone YIn, etc. The detox protocol in individual cases also would address key signs, like insomnia, hot flashes, anorexia, emesis, hair loss, leucopenia / anaemia etc. Are understood this. As examples, let us consider the use of TCM in two areas that clearly require detox, or help the body to cope with exogenous toxins: (1) to help cancer patients to cope with cytotoxic chemotherapy, and (2) to help someone to sober up after excessive alcohol intake (1) For a good overview of herbal support during / after cytotoxic chemotherapy, see: http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/exam/specialties_cancerchemotherapy.html (2) Hepatoprotective herbs help LV to withstand stressed metabolism of hepatotoxins, such as alcohol, CCl4, etc. Several research papers confirm the effects of such herbs on alcohol-induced impairment of LV metabolism. See: http://tinyurl.com/m7awjo For example, Renshen-Rx Ginseng " concentrated resin " has marked effects on alcohol metabolism, to which I can attest from personal experience. It clears a hangover very fast. For experimental data, see http://tinyurl.com/lch8xo PS: IMO, Are was not recommending HERBAL (high) oral doses of Symphytum to protect LV. Its pyrridolizine alkaloids are well known to be highly hepatotoxic. Indeed Symphytum toxicity has caused severe LV damage and many deaths in humans and animals. In homeopathic theory, however, substances that CAUSE hepatotoxicity can be used in HOMEOPATHIC DILUTIONS (minute doses) to TREAT symptom patterns that RESEMBLE hepatotoxicity. Symphytum C6 or C30 might be useful here. Comments, Are? Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thomas, I agree with you about Eclectic medicine. It is the great lost tradition in the West, and I was able to get Scudder's works through Michael Moore years ago. It was very interesting to see the patterns and diagnostics Flexner developed for the herbal tinctures he used. . . On Jun 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, wrote: > > > Yehuda said: I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention > is a > major problem that I have with both naturopathic/eclectic medicine and > western Biomedicine as well: their lack of diagnostic and pattern > specificity. > > Thomas: > Yehuda, lumping Naturopathic and Eclectic medicine together is a > mistake, > AND suggesting that Eclectic medicine lacked diagnostic and pattern > specificity is an ignorant statement. I suggest you get yourself a > copy of > Specific Diagnosis by Prof. Scudder. Eclectic medicine did an enormous > amount of refining of diagnostics and treatment during its very short > life-span, and I would suggest that if it not for Flexnor Report > (financed > by Carnegie because of his interest in supporting the AMA, which was > prescribing drugs from companies that he had financial interest in) > we would > likely have a system of medicine that although different from Chinese > medicine would likely be its rival when considering outcomes alone. > Furthermore, some of the language used by the Eclectics and the > Physiomedicalists (a different system which also sprang to life in > 19th > Century America) was remarkably similar to the ways we think of > plants and > the human system in CM. > > Naturopathic medicine is the great borrower, although it started in > Germany, > in America it has become a conglomerate of many different systems, > often > offering little focus when practitioners find difficulty resolving > illness > presented to them by their patients. I don't think it is a > deficiency of the > system as much as a deficiency of education and the individual > practitioners. > > My Two Cents (or Fen), > Thomas > > > Beijing, China > Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A > Practitioners Guide " > Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Phil, I strongly disagree. Chinese medicine is not a past tense concern, and continues to develop from within its own tradition. There is no problem accessing biomedical data, but it must be done in a way that does not compromise Chinese medical theories, which are not primarily physiological/biological but based on patterns and transformations in time. Biomedicine itself has changed little from its origins, it is still based on germ theory, anatomy and physiology, chemistry and biology, and still relies on drugs and surgery as main modalities. Let's not make the mistake and think that Chinese medicine is 'old' and biomedicine is 'new'. I also don't agree that modern Chinese medicine has the concept of 'detoxification', at least not in the sense of modern naturopathic medicine. On Jun 14, 2009, at 4:43 PM, wrote: > > > Hi All, & Z'ev, > > > Z'ev, with respect, I know that ...TCM developed in its own place and > time. IMO, we must NOT tie ourselves to theories and practices that > are centuries old. Medicine moves on daily. IMO, we should use the > best principles and theories from all useful sources, including TCM > and WM. > > Z'ev, IMO such thinking (combination of TCM herbal data + theory with > Biomedical data and theory) is an ADVANCE (not a hindrance or > negation) on BOTH systems. IMO, though TCM may not have had this > concept of detox, modern Chinese and Kampo medicine clearly have it. > > My concept of detox is NOT to use Clear Heat + Resolve Toxin herbs to > attack Heat and Toxin directly, but rather to activate the body's > main detox and excretion processes. > > Thus, depending on the main organs affected and the main SSs, I would > aim to Tone / Nourish LV-KI (boost LV-KI metabolism), Rectify (Tone / > Move) Qi-Xue, Nourish Bone / Marrow, enhance sweating, boost the > immune system, etc. If indicated, some herbs to Clear Heat + Resolve > Toxin might be added. In the case of Yinxu Heat (for example in men > after surgical or chemical castration), one might add herbs to Tone > YIn, etc. > > The detox protocol in individual cases also would address key signs, > like insomnia, hot flashes, anorexia, emesis, hair loss, leucopenia / > anaemia etc. Are understood this. > > As examples, let us consider the use of TCM in two areas that clearly > require detox, or help the body to cope with exogenous toxins: > > (1) to help cancer patients to cope with cytotoxic chemotherapy, > and > (2) to help someone to sober up after excessive alcohol intake > > (1) For a good overview of herbal support during / after cytotoxic > chemotherapy, see: > http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/exam/specialties_cancerchemotherapy.html > > (2) Hepatoprotective herbs help LV to withstand stressed metabolism > of hepatotoxins, such as alcohol, CCl4, etc. Several research papers > confirm the effects of such herbs on alcohol-induced impairment of LV > metabolism. See: http://tinyurl.com/m7awjo > > > > Best regards, > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thank you for the clarification, Thomas. It was my impression that the school of eclectic medicine was perpetuated by the likes of Jethroe Kloss and Dr. John Christopher, both of which seemed to me to be very similar to what I know of Naturopathy. I had heard the story from 100 some odd years ago about Dale Carnegie underwriting a study (as you say it was the Flexnor report) to examine the efficacy of different prevailing schools of medicine, what we now call Western biomedicine, the eclectics, the osteopaths and the homeopaths, and that he came to the conclusion that only western " scientific " biomedicine had any value. Their medical schools got the big bucks most of the rest went under, and the rest was history--until in the last 25 years or so, people in larger numbers started realizing that other medicine do heal and that Western medicine is often unable to treat successfully. I was unfamiliar with Scudder's " Specific Diagnosis " but have heard very good things about King's " American Dispensatory " and the writings of Dr. John Uri Lloyd. Can you elaborate more about the theories and methodologies and clinical practices of the eclectics, and how perhaps their legacy can be reawakened? --- On Sun, 6/14/09, wrote: Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:09 PM Yehuda said: I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention is a major problem that I have with both naturopathic/ eclectic medicine and western Biomedicine as well: their lack of diagnostic and pattern specificity. Thomas: Yehuda, lumping Naturopathic and Eclectic medicine together is a mistake, AND suggesting that Eclectic medicine lacked diagnostic and pattern specificity is an ignorant statement. I suggest you get yourself a copy of Specific Diagnosis by Prof. Scudder. Eclectic medicine did an enormous amount of refining of diagnostics and treatment during its very short life-span, and I would suggest that if it not for Flexnor Report (financed by Carnegie because of his interest in supporting the AMA, which was prescribing drugs from companies that he had financial interest in) we would likely have a system of medicine that although different from Chinese medicine would likely be its rival when considering outcomes alone. Furthermore, some of the language used by the Eclectics and the Physiomedicalists (a different system which also sprang to life in 19th Century America) was remarkably similar to the ways we think of plants and the human system in CM. Naturopathic medicine is the great borrower, although it started in Germany, in America it has become a conglomerate of many different systems, often offering little focus when practitioners find difficulty resolving illness presented to them by their patients. I don't think it is a deficiency of the system as much as a deficiency of education and the individual practitioners. My Two Cents (or Fen), Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs. blogspot. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Dear Z'ev, Of course you realize that you mispoke/typed below, but for those who do not know, Flexnor authored a report that brought down herbal medicine in the US in the early 20th Century. Scudder's work, along with the work of others, of that period stands as some of the best work ever done in the field of herbal medicine, anywhere. Thomas, I agree with you about Eclectic medicine. It is the great lost tradition in the West, and I was able to get Scudder's works through Michael Moore years ago. It was very interesting to see the patterns and diagnostics Flexner developed for the herbal tinctures he used. . . Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Odd typo indeed! I meant Scudder, of course. . Z'ev On Jun 16, 2009, at 8:20 AM, wrote: > > > Dear Z'ev, > > Of course you realize that you mispoke/typed below, but for those > who do not > know, Flexnor authored a report that brought down herbal medicine in > the US > in the early 20th Century. Scudder's work, along with the work of > others, of > that period stands as some of the best work ever done in the field > of herbal > medicine, anywhere. > > Thomas, I agree with you about Eclectic medicine. It is the great lost > tradition in the West, and I was able to get Scudder's works through > Michael Moore years ago. It was very interesting to see the patterns > and diagnostics Flexner developed for the herbal tinctures he > used. . . > > Thomas > > > Beijing, China > Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A > Practitioners Guide " > Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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