Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Yehuda asked: I was unfamiliar with Scudder's " Specific Diagnosis " but have heard very good things about King's " American Dispensatory " and the writings of Dr. John Uri Lloyd. Can you elaborate more about the theories and methodologies and clinical practices of the eclectics, and how perhaps their legacy can be reawakened? First let me say that Kloss and Dr. Christopher where not Eclectic physicians. To answer your question above would take a text book and there are several, I would recommend you get a copy of the above named book and some of the others available. I think it is available on Michael Moore's<http://www.swsbm.com/>website or Henriette's Herbal Website <http://www.henriettesherbal.com/> I also am a big fan of William Cooke's book on Physiomedicalism, which I believe is available for free on Paul Bergner's <http://www.medherb.com> website. <http://www.medherb.com> I am sorry that I can't go into more detail at this time but really it is a quite a study but they used symptom patterns along with pulse and other signs to make diagnosis' and from there prescribe herbs and formulas. I am not trying to say it was as well developed as Chinese medicine, but certainly is well worth looking at, IMHO. Especially, in my work of integrating Western herbs into the Chinese medicinal paradigm. Enjoy, Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I had to chime in as this is a favorite subject of mine. I may be incorrect, but as I recall, Scudder, et.al.'s use of pulse, tongue, and s/s complex was focused on identifying associated medicinals (i.e., " specific medicines " ) rather than patterns, per se. In some ways, it is kind of like the TCM herbal tradition prior to neoconfucian? integration with nei jing theory. Prior to that point in time (about 900 years ago?), herbology, according to Unschuld, was practiced without making a pattern diagnosis. The primary texts in circulation were herbal monographs. In some respects, this is also similar in practice to kanpo or some Chinese SHL schools of practice, wherein formula are chosen based on complexes and little or minimal dx is done. Personally, I am not convinced that the neoconfucian integration was necessarily an advance. These is certainly little evidence to that effect. Success rates in controlled research seem fairly similar whether one uses pattern dx or not. If you ask Unschuld, and I have, the reasons this shift occurred was primarily cultural not medical in nature. If one has not practiced these other styles of Chinese medicine, one only has the experience of what one has done. That does not negate the other. , wrote: > > Yehuda asked: I was unfamiliar with Scudder's " Specific Diagnosis " but have > heard very good things about King's " American Dispensatory " and the > writings of Dr. John Uri Lloyd. Can you elaborate more about the theories > and methodologies and clinical practices of the eclectics, and how perhaps > their legacy can be reawakened? > > First let me say that Kloss and Dr. Christopher where not Eclectic > physicians. > > To answer your question above would take a text book and there are several, > I would recommend you get a copy of the above named book and some of the > others available. I think it is available on Michael > Moore's<http://www.swsbm.com/>website or Henriette's > Herbal Website <http://www.henriettesherbal.com/> I also am a big fan of > William Cooke's book on Physiomedicalism, which I believe is available for > free on Paul Bergner's <http://www.medherb.com> website. > <http://www.medherb.com> > I am sorry that I can't go into more detail at this time but really it is a > quite a study but they used symptom patterns along with pulse and other > signs to make diagnosis' and from there prescribe herbs and formulas. I am > not trying to say it was as well developed as Chinese medicine, but > certainly is well worth looking at, IMHO. Especially, in my work of > integrating Western herbs into the Chinese medicinal paradigm. > > Enjoy, > Thomas > > > Beijing, China > Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A > Practitioners Guide " > Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Does anyone here not read? I said it in my earlier post. Thi sis not TCM, but an earlier system of Chinese medicine... *Zhang Cong Zheng* (1156-1228ce) Believed all diseases were caused by 'evil factors', external pathogens being introduced into the human body. To cure; induce sweating, vomiting, and purging. 'School of attacking and purging'. > > -- Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME chusauli See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Unschuld writes about the methods of exorcism that carried over into medicine. Flaws and Heiner Freuhauf have written articles about releasing " gu " toxins. There are also accounts of environmental evils, such as " bad air " creating epidemics. Of course, if we talk about chelation therapy, what about getting zhu sha (mercury) out from the body? K On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Robert Chu <chusauli wrote: > > > Does anyone here not read? I said it in my earlier post. Thi sis not TCM, > but an earlier system of Chinese medicine... > > *Zhang Cong Zheng* (1156-1228ce) > > Believed all diseases were caused by 'evil factors', external pathogens > being introduced into the human body. To cure; induce sweating, vomiting, > and purging. 'School of attacking and purging'. > > > > > > > > -- > Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME > chusauli <chusauli%40gmail.com> > > See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 of course the school of attacking and purging is tcm. the four great masters of the jin yuan period were strong influences on all later medicine in china. just because the earth tonifying and yin nourishing schools are better known schools of the time doesn't discredit zhang cong zheng's contributions. -- In , Robert Chu <chusauli wrote: > > Does anyone here not read? I said it in my earlier post. Thi sis not TCM, > but an earlier system of Chinese medicine... > > *Zhang Cong Zheng* (1156-1228ce) > > Believed all diseases were caused by 'evil factors', external pathogens > being introduced into the human body. To cure; induce sweating, vomiting, > and purging. 'School of attacking and purging'. > > > > > > > > > -- > Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME > chusauli > > See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 When frequently it has been mentioned that the TCM Classics don't mention detoxification, one question to ask is what is included within the acceptable corpus of literature. By this I mean that if you examine the Daoist and to some extant Buddhist canons, so much is written and has been passed down orally. Like the bigu idea- fasting from grains to lighten the body. Or the idea of the three worms (or three corpses and nine worms). What about the myriad of yangshen- 'hygene' practices that often include fasting, seasonal regimens, physical and breathing practices, specific diets, as well as herbal formulas. Then finally, just study the Shen Nong Bencao Jing, and so many references to herbal functions of detoxifying the body are there. Yet whether TCM ever had something akin to the Ayurvedic Panchakarma or Kayakalpa Chikitsa programs is another question. The extent to which purging, sweating, and vomiting is referred to- even in Shang Han Lun- shows that it was done, but was there a systematic procedure involving concentration of accumulated toxins/wastes and expelling them through multiple treatment steps (akin to the purvakarma and various kramas in panchakarma)? It is true that if your medical theory is based on a humoural system, where primary pathological process is based upon excess accumulations damaging tissues, such as in Ayurveda, the need to detoxify is fundamental. Not that Ayurveda doesn't acknowledge deficiencies or other imbalances (as seen by dosha kshaya and visramsha) but the accumulation of humours is primary. So my question to you all is this: How did these ideas and practices of cleansing the body found in the esoteric (meaning Daoist and Buddhist) traditions influence the use of purging within clinical Chinese medicine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Thomas - Thanks for this. I used the entire body of works cited here for the eclectic tradition beginning in the early 1990s. While fascinating, I was never able to systematically apply Scudder's thoughts on specific diagnosis. I did find his thinking on specific medication to be similar to Jinling Wang's approach which I encountered in 1984. Wang selected specific agents on an evidence basis and placed them into a formula based upon diagnosis and pattern discrimination. Neiqiang Gu, who is in the LA basin and still at Emperor's I believe, focuses heavily on relieving toxins. His specialty is external diseases. Jiangfu Jiang, who is semiretired now, if not completely, say that herbs are actually very simple. We are either benefiting the righteous or eliminating evil. It seems to me that every school of herbalism has a puke and purge cult. Ah, I long for the good ol' days. Warmly, Will , wrote: > > Yehuda asked: I was unfamiliar with Scudder's " Specific Diagnosis " but have > heard very good things about King's " American Dispensatory " and the > writings of Dr. John Uri Lloyd. Can you elaborate more about the theories > and methodologies and clinical practices of the eclectics, and how perhaps > their legacy can be reawakened? > > First let me say that Kloss and Dr. Christopher where not Eclectic > physicians. > > To answer your question above would take a text book and there are several, > I would recommend you get a copy of the above named book and some of the > others available. I think it is available on Michael > Moore's<http://www.swsbm.com/>website or Henriette's > Herbal Website <http://www.henriettesherbal.com/> I also am a big fan of > William Cooke's book on Physiomedicalism, which I believe is available for > free on Paul Bergner's <http://www.medherb.com> website. > <http://www.medherb.com> > I am sorry that I can't go into more detail at this time but really it is a > quite a study but they used symptom patterns along with pulse and other > signs to make diagnosis' and from there prescribe herbs and formulas. I am > not trying to say it was as well developed as Chinese medicine, but > certainly is well worth looking at, IMHO. Especially, in my work of > integrating Western herbs into the Chinese medicinal paradigm. > > Enjoy, > Thomas > > > Beijing, China > Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A > Practitioners Guide " > Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Gong xie pai/attacking and precipitation current does not use the same methodology or have the same goals as naturopathic cleansing methods. Zhang Zhi-he's (Cong-zheng) methods were designed to eliminate specific evil qi from specific visceral systems. There wasn't a 'one size fits all' approach, and no one would ever take Dr. Zhang's prescriptions as a general 'cleanse'. They were designed to treat specific disease patterns. On Jun 16, 2009, at 10:21 PM, adividya wrote: > > > of course the school of attacking and purging is tcm. > > the four great masters of the jin yuan period were strong influences > on all later medicine in china. > > just because the earth tonifying and yin nourishing schools are > better known schools of the time doesn't discredit zhang cong > zheng's contributions. > > -- In , Robert Chu <chusauli > wrote: > > > > Does anyone here not read? I said it in my earlier post. Thi sis > not TCM, > > but an earlier system of Chinese medicine... > > > > *Zhang Cong Zheng* (1156-1228ce) > > > > Believed all diseases were caused by 'evil factors', external > pathogens > > being introduced into the human body. To cure; induce sweating, > vomiting, > > and purging. 'School of attacking and purging'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME > > chusauli > > > > See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Will, I don't know why I am not getting my point across, but eliminating evil, purgation/precipitation and gong xie/attacking evil are not the same as 'liver detox' or 'bowel cleansing' by a long shot. 1) Formulas for precipitation in the da huang family (cheng qi tang) in the Shang Han Lun are used under very restrictive conditions, only in one or two doses (see the yang ming chapter), and only in replete conditions with heat, strong pulses, tense abdomens, etc. 2) The gong xia pai/attack and precipitate school historically has remained a minority school, as the mainstream of Chinese medicine tends to embrace a more moderate approach to treatment. My point is that a 'one-size-fits-all' approach to liver detoxification and bowel cleansing is not a part of Chinese medicine, and couldn't be. Certainly there may be systematic approaches to cleansing in yang sheng/nourishing life practices, and certainly Ayurvedic medicine has sophisticated panchakarma regimes, but they are based on constitutional protocols that are carefully developed. On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:38 AM, Will Morris wrote: > > > Thomas - > > Thanks for this. I used the entire body of works cited here for the > eclectic tradition beginning in the early 1990s. While fascinating, > I was never able to systematically apply Scudder's thoughts on > specific diagnosis. I did find his thinking on specific medication > to be similar to Jinling Wang's approach which I encountered in > 1984. Wang selected specific agents on an evidence basis and placed > them into a formula based upon diagnosis and pattern discrimination. > > Neiqiang Gu, who is in the LA basin and still at Emperor's I > believe, focuses heavily on relieving toxins. His specialty is > external diseases. Jiangfu Jiang, who is semiretired now, if not > completely, say that herbs are actually very simple. We are either > benefiting the righteous or eliminating evil. > > It seems to me that every school of herbalism has a puke and purge > cult. Ah, I long for the good ol' days. > > Warmly, > > Will > > , > wrote: > > > > Yehuda asked: I was unfamiliar with Scudder's " Specific Diagnosis " > but have > > heard very good things about King's " American Dispensatory " and the > > writings of Dr. John Uri Lloyd. Can you elaborate more about the > theories > > and methodologies and clinical practices of the eclectics, and how > perhaps > > their legacy can be reawakened? > > > > First let me say that Kloss and Dr. Christopher where not Eclectic > > physicians. > > > > To answer your question above would take a text book and there are > several, > > I would recommend you get a copy of the above named book and some > of the > > others available. I think it is available on Michael > > Moore's<http://www.swsbm.com/>website or Henriette's > > Herbal Website <http://www.henriettesherbal.com/> I also am a big > fan of > > William Cooke's book on Physiomedicalism, which I believe is > available for > > free on Paul Bergner's <http://www.medherb.com> website. > > <http://www.medherb.com> > > I am sorry that I can't go into more detail at this time but > really it is a > > quite a study but they used symptom patterns along with pulse and > other > > signs to make diagnosis' and from there prescribe herbs and > formulas. I am > > not trying to say it was as well developed as Chinese medicine, but > > certainly is well worth looking at, IMHO. Especially, in my work of > > integrating Western herbs into the Chinese medicinal paradigm. > > > > Enjoy, > > Thomas > > > > > > Beijing, China > > Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional Chinese > Medicine: A > > Practitioners Guide " > > Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Z'ev, Respectfully....I think you have made your point, but I also think that ND's are not taught a " one-size-fits-all " approach. I believe that there are a number of ND's out there who have become attached to this approach in a similar way that physicians have around the world. This is likely because humans are basically excessive in nature, we collectively eat too much, drink too much, sleep too much, etc and thus a good puck and purge can do many people a heck of a lot of good. To suggest that Chinese medicine has never had such an approach is, IMHO, incorrect. Sorry I don't have the references, but I think Will's and I believe there have been others pretty clearly point this out. It does not make it right or wrong, it is simply one approach....of which there are basically an infinite amount within Chinese medicine. Dogma is poison, no matter where it comes from. Thomas Beijing, China Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A Practitioners Guide " Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Z'ev, You are right, I did not get your point. I just saw it in a previous post and must have missed your earlier thoughts on the matter. I do not propose however, that once I understand the point, that I will agree in whole or in part. In this case, I do in part. It appears that you have an assumption that the European and Native American traditions - from which these early eclectics find roots - have no specificity. Further, I have seen Chinese be specific and general in their practice of eliminating evil. It depends on how well they localize the pathogen, if the pathogen is not systemic. The gong xia pai/attack and precipitate school does remain marginalized. We teach it as the core methods in formulary - but then we don't use the methods clinically. Puking and purging has a place - no matter how small. I do howver, agree with you, however, about the indiscriminate use of bowel and liver cleanses. I have treated people who have been harmed by such approaches. Warmly, Will , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Will, > I don't know why I am not getting my point across, but eliminating > evil, purgation/precipitation and gong xie/attacking evil are not the > same as 'liver detox' or 'bowel cleansing' by a long shot. > > 1) Formulas for precipitation in the da huang family (cheng qi tang) > in the Shang Han Lun are used under very restrictive conditions, only > in one or two doses (see the yang ming chapter), and only in replete > conditions with heat, strong pulses, tense abdomens, etc. > > 2) The gong xia pai/attack and precipitate school historically has > remained a minority school, as the mainstream of Chinese medicine > tends to embrace a more moderate approach to treatment. > > My point is that a 'one-size-fits-all' approach to liver > detoxification and bowel cleansing is not a part of Chinese medicine, > and couldn't be. Certainly there may be systematic approaches to > cleansing in yang sheng/nourishing life practices, and certainly > Ayurvedic medicine has sophisticated panchakarma regimes, but they are > based on constitutional protocols that are carefully developed. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Thomas, Find me one source in Chinese medicine that suggests bowel cleansing, sweating, or disinhibiting urination as a health maintenance measure. . . Certainly there is value to cleansing regimens, especially panchakarma techniques. But I've seen too many health professionals who routinely try to sell 'spring cleanses' to everyone who walks in their office (we recently had a discussion about this on the PCOM alumni list), multi-marketing concerns selling 'cleansing programs', and CM practitioners who ask all the time about doing 'liver detoxes', etc. On Jun 18, 2009, at 1:38 AM, wrote: > > > Z'ev, > > Respectfully....I think you have made your point, but I also think > that ND's > are not taught a " one-size-fits-all " approach. I believe that there > are a > number of ND's out there who have become attached to this approach > in a > similar way that physicians have around the world. This is likely > because > humans are basically excessive in nature, we collectively eat too > much, > drink too much, sleep too much, etc and thus a good puck and purge > can do > many people a heck of a lot of good. To suggest that Chinese > medicine has > never had such an approach is, IMHO, incorrect. Sorry I don't have the > references, but I think Will's and I believe there have been others > pretty > clearly point this out. It does not make it right or wrong, it is > simply one > approach....of which there are basically an infinite amount within > Chinese > medicine. > > Dogma is poison, no matter where it comes from. > > Thomas > > > Beijing, China > Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A > Practitioners Guide " > Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Zhang Zi-he's attacking and precipitating school quickly fell out of favor in China. Although Zhang is listed as one of the Four Great Masters (si da jia) of the Jin-Yuan, by the late Ming and Qing dynasties, many Chinese doctors were not sure which Zhang was referred to by this grouping. As is well-known in what has become standard professionl Chinese medicine, all disease is not due to the presence of some evil qi, and, therefore, attacking and draining is not right in all situations. (As an aside, it is interesting that Zhang came up with his approach at a time when [indian] Buddhism and, therefore, possibly Ayurvedic medicine were having a marked effect in China. Certainly Ayurveda affected Sun Si-miao's thought in the preceding dynasty. Interestingly, those aspects of Sun's thought based on Ayurveda also did not successfully take root in China.) Further and more importantly, if one treats based on pattern identification and successfully eliminates the patient's presenting symptoms, one will have de facto achieved the same effects as naturopathic detoxification if that detoxification is/was/would have been able to eliminate those same symptoms. There is only one body. These methodologies are simply conceptual notions about what we are doing. If these different approaches achieve the same outcome, then one school does not have to add the concepts or map of the other school. Nor is there any reason to worry about something lacking in one system or the other. The issue is if one system is able, based on its conceptual methodology, to eliminate symptoms or conditions that the other system cannot. In that case, expanding or improving one's system would logically be called for. For example, take a patient who is told by an ND that, because of the symptoms they are presenting, they need a liver flush. (Here I'm assuming that the ND does have a standard set of signs and symptoms to indicate this diagnosis and therefore this treatment. If, in fact, there is no standard set of signs and symptoms indicating the need for a liver flush, then the whole thing is questionable. In that case, we are not talking about a rational medicine tied to empirical evidence.) In any case, the patient does the liver flush and the symptoms all go away. So the ND says, " See, they really did need detoxification and the detoxification worked as I thought it would. " Great. The outcome is the important thing. So we can all be happy the patient recovered. However, if that same patient was treated by CM pattern discrimination, and say their presenting pattern was kidney-liver yin vacuity, if nourishing and enriching the liver and kidneys also resulted in the elimination of the patient's signs and symptoms, then viola, the ultimate goal of treatment was achieved and all the rest is semantics. In that case, CM is lacking nothing and there is no need to add the concept of detoxification to our system. As a profession, I believe we need to get clear that the map is not the terrain. All our (and NDs', MDs', and DCs') theories are only conceptual artifacts to get a particular job done. We're not talking deontology here; we're talking pragmatics (meaning the American philosopher John Dewey's pragmatics). We need to understand our system as a system OF THOUGHT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Well said Bob. , " Bob Flaws " <bob wrote: > > Zhang Zi-he's attacking and precipitating school quickly fell out of favor in China. Although Zhang is listed as one of the Four Great Masters (si da jia) of the Jin-Yuan, by the late Ming and Qing dynasties, many Chinese doctors were not sure which Zhang was referred to by this grouping. As is well-known in what has become standard professionl Chinese medicine, all disease is not due to the presence of some evil qi, and, therefore, attacking and draining is not right in all situations. > > (As an aside, it is interesting that Zhang came up with his approach at a time when [indian] Buddhism and, therefore, possibly Ayurvedic medicine were having a marked effect in China. Certainly Ayurveda affected Sun Si-miao's thought in the preceding dynasty. Interestingly, those aspects of Sun's thought based on Ayurveda also did not successfully take root in China.) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Will, Your assumption is incorrect. There was another thread where Eclectic medicine was discussed in terms of pattern differentiation, and my appraisal was mainly positive. My original training was at a small naturopathic school (Dr. Jay Scherer) in Santa Fe in the early 70's, with teachers such as Michael Moore, the great herbalist, and both in school and out of school I researched the Eclectic and Native American/Southwestern traditions of herbal medicine, including Curanderismo, Zuni, Navajo (Yeibechei) and Hopi traditions of healing. There were various diagnostic and treatment approaches used (hot and cold herbs, hot and cold, weak and strong constitutions, etc.). Sadly, in the case of the apprentice- based systems of Native America and Mexico, much of this wisdom was lost. This is one of the advantages of Chinese, Tibetan and Ayurvedic medicine(s). They are literate rational systems, recorded in centuries of texts, with a continuation of teaching the essential materials. The West largely abandoned the literate/rational system of Galenic/Hippocratic medicine, and what we call 'European medicine' today is largely folk medicine-based, without the rational structure. Even in China, we need to distinguish between the rational Chinese medical system and folk medicine approaches. There have always been professional and lay levels of practice in medicine and healing, and the same applies to the topic at hand. Multi-level marketing of bowel and liver cleansing regimes is largely folk medicine at best, and has more consequences if promoted without discrimination. I had a patient last year who I was treating largely for anxiety based issues ( I don't have her chart handy, so I can't give all the diagnostic data I collected). I asked her for all medications and treatments she had taken recently. I gave her a Chinese herb formula. After a month or so, she developed sharp stomach pains, went to the hospital and was diagnosed with mild pancreatitis. I had a strong feeling that it wasn't the herb formula I prescribed, so I asked her again if she was taking anything else. As it turns out, she was using a strong bowel cleanser daily for months that she bought on-line from a web site daily, with rhubarb as a main ingredient. Combining with other herbs was as bad an idea as taking the bowel formula in the first place. . . On Jun 18, 2009, at 4:02 AM, Will Morris wrote: > It appears that you have an assumption that the European and Native > American traditions - from which these early eclectics find roots - > have no specificity. Further, I have seen Chinese be specific and > general in their practice of eliminating evil. It depends on how > well they localize the pathogen, if the pathogen is not systemic. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Isn't half of the Shang han lun about reversing the malpractice of someone purging a pathogen deeper into the body... was there a detox-type school or public practice that inspired Zhang Zhong-Jing to deduce the six conformations? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Again, we can't get over what is meant by " detox " . For the Western patient, and perhaps the naturapath etc.., it means one thing and for us " toxins " are a specific term. I'll take a stab defining it as usually meaning having a red and heat component, almost always manifesting in extreme ways on the surface. Wiseman uses the word virulent... " Our " liver isn't especially toxic unless there is this heat component and yes this could be the result of improper purging (usually). However as I understand the naturapath it means a broader range of " toxic " materials. I'll quote from a random web site to see if we can reach an understanding here.... http://www.ombelievablewellness.com/toxic-liver-and-weight-gain/ When the liver is overloaded (toxic), every organ in a person's body is affected and weight loss efforts are blocked. Among the signs of a toxic liver are weight gain, cellulite, abdominal bloating, indigestion, high blood pressure, elevated cholesterol, fatigue, mood swings, depression and skin rashes. Some of the stressors of the liver are caffeine, alcohol, sugar, trans fats, medications (prescription and over the counter) and inadequate fiber. ______________________ These then are signs of Spleen deficiency with arguably a Liver constraint component.... Doug , <johnkokko wrote: > > Isn't half of the Shang han lun about reversing the malpractice of someone > purging a pathogen deeper into the body... > was there a detox-type school or public practice that inspired Zhang > Zhong-Jing to deduce the six conformations? > > K > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Let us not forget that there are many kinds of toxins in CM. For example in the suwen it says there is cold toxins, damp toxins, heat toxins, clear toxins, fire toxins, and dry toxins. In the jin gui there is yin toxin and yang toxins. There also things like summer heat toxin, phlegm toxin, water toxin, parasite toxin etc.. All these ideas are still in use in the modern day clinic by doctors who favor such theory. Such doctors that I have studied with will often use the term toxin and talk about detoxifying. Therefore detoxification is alive and well in the modern Chinese clinics, however as others have pointed out Chinese medicine has a very specific approach for which toxin it is treating, as well as the specific location. Consequently, a toxin should not be just a thought of as just having a red and heat component, manifesting in the surface of the body. But in defense of Western alternative medicine, especially functional medicine, they also have a very specific criteria for detoxification. They will target the liver, lymph, skin, kidneys etc. based on various symptomatology. To further differentiate , for example, one can target very specific detoxification pathways of the liver depending upon symptomatology or diagnostic testing. The willy-nilly gall bladder flushes, or one size fits all liver cleanses, are not what I consider 'real' Western alternative medicine and are IMHO simply just folk remedies, and usually used by mediocre practitioners or layman. Thus these protocols should not be confused with the higher level (educated) practitioners that really know what they're doing when it comes to detoxification. So of course there are differences in the two systems. However, both systems have something to offer the other. We all can learn from each other. - On Behalf Of Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:57 PM Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? Again, we can't get over what is meant by " detox " . For the Western patient, and perhaps the naturapath etc.., it means one thing and for us " toxins " are a specific term. I'll take a stab defining it as usually meaning having a red and heat component, almost always manifesting in extreme ways on the surface. Wiseman uses the word virulent... " Our " liver isn't especially toxic unless there is this heat component and yes this could be the result of improper purging (usually). However as I understand the naturapath it means a broader range of " toxic " materials. I'll quote from a random web site to see if we can reach an understanding here.... http://www.ombelievablewellness.com/toxic-liver-and-weight-gain/ When the liver is overloaded (toxic), every organ in a person's body is affected and weight loss efforts are blocked. Among the signs of a toxic liver are weight gain, cellulite, abdominal bloating, indigestion, high blood pressure, elevated cholesterol, fatigue, mood swings, depression and skin rashes. Some of the stressors of the liver are caffeine, alcohol, sugar, trans fats, medications (prescription and over the counter) and inadequate fiber. ______________________ These then are signs of Spleen deficiency with arguably a Liver constraint component.... Doug <%40> , <johnkokko wrote: > > Isn't half of the Shang han lun about reversing the malpractice of someone > purging a pathogen deeper into the body... > was there a detox-type school or public practice that inspired Zhang > Zhong-Jing to deduce the six conformations? > > K > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I've often wondered the same. . perhaps we can ask Arnaud Versluys about this. . On Jun 18, 2009, at 11:05 AM, wrote: > > > Isn't half of the Shang han lun about reversing the malpractice of > someone > purging a pathogen deeper into the body... > was there a detox-type school or public practice that inspired Zhang > Zhong-Jing to deduce the six conformations? > > K > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Doug, I think it is a good idea to take the discussion in this direction. I agree we should look at some of these western sources and then try to compare with Chinese medicine. On Jun 18, 2009, at 2:56 PM, wrote: > > > Again, we can't get over what is meant by " detox " . For the Western > patient, and perhaps the naturapath etc.., it means one thing and > for us " toxins " are a specific term. I'll take a stab defining it as > usually meaning having a red and heat component, almost always > manifesting in extreme ways on the surface. Wiseman uses the word > virulent... > > " Our " liver isn't especially toxic unless there is this heat > component and yes this could be the result of improper purging > (usually). However as I understand the naturapath it means a broader > range of " toxic " materials. > > I'll quote from a random web site to see if we can reach an > understanding here.... > > http://www.ombelievablewellness.com/toxic-liver-and-weight-gain/ > When the liver is overloaded (toxic), every organ in a person's body > is affected and weight loss efforts are blocked. Among the signs of > a toxic liver are weight gain, cellulite, abdominal bloating, > indigestion, high blood pressure, elevated cholesterol, fatigue, > mood swings, depression and skin rashes. Some of the stressors of > the liver are caffeine, alcohol, sugar, trans fats, medications > (prescription and over the counter) and inadequate fiber. > > ______________________ > > These then are signs of Spleen deficiency with arguably a Liver > constraint component.... > > Doug > > , > <johnkokko wrote: > > > > Isn't half of the Shang han lun about reversing the malpractice of > someone > > purging a pathogen deeper into the body... > > was there a detox-type school or public practice that inspired Zhang > > Zhong-Jing to deduce the six conformations? > > > > K > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Yes we should look at the Western sources before making generalizations. However the website that Doug presents below is far from what I consider a legitimate source of information. We should not confuse some nutritionist / colon hydrotherapist website's sales pitch on " toxic liver and weight gain " with what actually exists in the Western alternative medical realm. We also should not just correlate the liver's lack of ability to detoxify with symptoms of heat. These are gross simplifications, which do not always pan out in the clinic. - On Behalf Of Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:00 PM Re: Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? Doug, I think it is a good idea to take the discussion in this direction. I agree we should look at some of these western sources and then try to compare with Chinese medicine. On Jun 18, 2009, at 2:56 PM, wrote: > > > Again, we can't get over what is meant by " detox " . For the Western > patient, and perhaps the naturapath etc.., it means one thing and > for us " toxins " are a specific term. I'll take a stab defining it as > usually meaning having a red and heat component, almost always > manifesting in extreme ways on the surface. Wiseman uses the word > virulent... > > " Our " liver isn't especially toxic unless there is this heat > component and yes this could be the result of improper purging > (usually). However as I understand the naturapath it means a broader > range of " toxic " materials. > > I'll quote from a random web site to see if we can reach an > understanding here.... > > http://www.ombelievablewellness.com/toxic-liver-and-weight-gain/ > When the liver is overloaded (toxic), every organ in a person's body > is affected and weight loss efforts are blocked. Among the signs of > a toxic liver are weight gain, cellulite, abdominal bloating, > indigestion, high blood pressure, elevated cholesterol, fatigue, > mood swings, depression and skin rashes. Some of the stressors of > the liver are caffeine, alcohol, sugar, trans fats, medications > (prescription and over the counter) and inadequate fiber. > > __ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I would agree that was a very poor informational site if one takes the idea of detox seriously however I am unclear if we are talking about consumer " detox " or naturapathic " detox " and is either the same as anything we do in CM? So I went back to the earliest parts of this thread I could find. Pay attention to Stephen's statement... And then towards the end I copied Ben's pointed opinion. (both now perhaps grossly out of context, sorry) Enjoy: ________________ Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > model. _________________ Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist? While it is true that modern TCM teaches little of detoxing, it was used by the Purge school. Since starvation was rampant during Mao's time, purging was not emphasized. Ayurveda developed out of seeing fat cats that ate too much or had too much sex. Its what TCM will develop this generation with the event of KFC, McDonald's, smoking, stress, modern lifestyle, etc. in China. On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierrawrote: > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of the > role of > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses. > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools > learning about various methods of general detoxification, > fasting, etc. > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the > model. > > Treatment is always based on patterns....so, we don't have/need > de-tox > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on > food is bad for you. > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it's just not part of > the model > > Stephen Woodley Lac " __ For those of you living in China, are there any current detox fads that you are seeing in clinics, spas, in popular literature etc.? Stephen, do you remember the name of the fellow that Arnaud spent time with in rural China who was doing all the harsh expellent therapy for a variety of conditions? While it doesn't fit into the standardized TCM model, wouldn't you call this a version of detoxing? I would also consider that the use of herbs such as Wuweizi and Danshen based on a pharmacological understanding that they activate detoxification pathways of the Liver as more akin to a Naturopathic model of detox than to a pattern based diagnostic model that is taught in schools here or in a more classical model. I know that there are some of you have spent time in dermatology clinics in China, are the pharmacodynamics of herbs in this field? Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Hi all Stephen: So, Douglas brought up my original statement that I believe what is referred to as " detoxing " and fasting are antithetical to CM - treat based on patterns Many people have tried to equate attacking purgation with detoxing in a modern sense...which I believe is a huge stretch Kokko brilliantly pointed to the fact that much of the " trasmutation " patterns in SHL are due to erroneous purgation...ie not treating based on the pattern or presentation (some pointed out that what we call pattern discrimination is perhaps relatively new) Admittedly, most of my understanding is based on health food store tabloid fad marketing and practitioners that are " mediocre " ... but it still seems that this idea for the need of detox is based on: 1) a biochemical model that isn't part of CM - our knowledge of the pharmacodynamics of herbal formulas is microscopic at this point 2) detoxing seems to be based on an assumption of a build up of metabolic by-products and chemicals from the " environment " - again, to equate this with CM Du - toxins IMO is so off target, I don't know what to say....see Jason's quote below Jason said: Let us not forget that there are many kinds of toxins in CM. For example in the suwen it says there is cold toxins, damp toxins, heat toxins, clear toxins, fire toxins, and dry toxins. In the jin gui there is yin toxin and yang toxins. There also things like summer heat toxin, phlegm toxin, water toxin, parasite toxin etc.. 3) One of the consistent symptoms that is highly touted for the " need " to be detoxed is - Fatigue/malaise to me, this represents Qi Xu!! To use attacking purgation to treat deficiency/vacuity would place one with the practitioners that Zhang Zhong Jing so strongly attacked in his preface to SHL and then spent 1/2 the book trying to fix from wrong purgation (and those were repletion patterns treated incorrectly!!!) a Kokko reminds us... 4) I think that this is partly an artifact of our modern material culture - " I feel toxic " " I have to clean up my act.. " etc as one person posted they speak to their patients in terms of " detoxing " because that is what they can relate to.... I will never forget 10 years ago foolishly telling a patient that she had what we called " liver qi stagnation " .... she went to her MD and had a liver panel done....clean...then she was mad at me and wondered if I knew what I was doing. So, I have used 5 phase representations to explain ever since I'd like to understand from someone - are you " detoxing " metabolic by-products and environmental chemicals? If so, how can you equate that with what Jason reminded us of? if not, what are you " detoxing " ? interesting debate Stephen Woodley LAc -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I would add Stephen, that you find a variation of this when you look around in health food strores--people who complicate their imbalances and really mess themselves up by self-prescribing themselves (and spending a fortune) at health food stores. Sometimes I get up the chutzpah to ask people in lines to show me their tongues, those who are spending megabucks, and invariably they are red, dry, and without coat. I'm telling you, someone who is young, smart and needs patients could make a fortune setting up a clinic next door to a health food store! --- On Fri, 6/19/09, stephen woodley <learntcm wrote: Kokko brilliantly pointed to the fact that much of the " trasmutation " patterns in SHL are due to erroneous purgation... ie not treating based on the pattern or presentation Recent Activity 9 New MembersVisit Your Group Give Back for Good Get inspired by a good cause. Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Zev its not diff then LAcs giving yin qiao to anyone with a cold or flu. Bad practice is just that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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