SV: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

[Guest guest]

Are,

I am very sympathetic to the use of local herbal medicines, and I

know Europe has a developed tradition of phytotherapy. However, as a

practitioner of Chinese medicine, we rely on pattern differentiation

and the experience of generations of great physicians who designed

prescriptions that have been in use on millions of people for many

centuries. I have to put my trust in their prescriptions, and

although I'd like to use local medicinals, we simply do not have the

infrastructure of plant harvesting/farming, identification, pao zhi/

preparation of medicinals or formulation experience to match China in

polypharmacy at this point in time. .

 

 

On Jun 13, 2009, at 10:34 PM, Are Thoresen wrote:

 

>

> Phil and all,

>

> My comments are that the way Phil expresses it, that we are to find

> herbs

> that are PROTECTING the liver or kidney, is much better than talking

> about

> detoxifying herbs. In my opinion ALL plants that are stimulating and

> strengthening the organ, will make it stronger and more protected

> against

> toxins. So, the best plant to do this, and also stimulate the

> recovery of

> the liver, is SYMPHYTUM OFFICINALE. Again I must allow myself to

> advocate

> the use of western herbs, which seem to fit western people better than

> eastern herbs.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have also one more comment; cancer is created by a long standing or

serious EXCESS in the organ where the cancer is developed. All plants that

stimulate an organ will thus create cancer if used too long. But if such a

stimulating plant, as comfrey is to the liver, is used only when there is

aDEFICIENCY, and also only as long as the deficiency is present, the

stimulus will not lead to cancer.

 

Are

 

PS: IMO, Are was not recommending HERBAL (high) oral doses of

Symphytum to protect LV. Its pyrridolizine alkaloids are well known

to be highly hepatotoxic. Indeed Symphytum toxicity has caused severe

LV damage and many deaths in humans and animals.

 

In homeopathic theory, however, substances that CAUSE hepatotoxicity

can be used in HOMEOPATHIC DILUTIONS (minute doses) to TREAT symptom

patterns that RESEMBLE hepatotoxicity. Symphytum C6 or C30 might be

useful here.

 

Comments, Are?

 

Yes, Phil, I have some comments. I use the herbal medicine, but only one

drop of a tincture for each kg. each day for 10 days.

 

I have been doing this for many years, and the results have been very good,

also in dysfunctional livers that have been given up on by doctors.

 

Are

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Are & All,

This research article seems to suggest some undiserable concerns regarding the

use of Symphytum Officinale L. aka Comfrey.  This herb has been banned in

several coutries.  After reading this you probably will want to reconsider using

it!

Comfrey (Symphytum officinale L.)

" the presence of hepatotoxic pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PAs) in comfrey has raised

concerns over the chronic consumption of teas or other products made from it "

....

" PAs may be metabolised to either pyrroles, possibly responsible for the

hepatotoxicity, or N-oxides, possibly a detoxification process " ...

" some proponents of comfrey have maintained that consumption of tea made from

comfrey

leaves may not be a risk since the PAs are not particularly

soluble in water, and thus the subsequent tea should

contain only the more water-soluble N-oxides " ...

" Yet, case studies have reported severe liver disorder (venoocclusive disease,

VOD) and even fatalities from the chronic consumption of products that contain

PAs "

" Yet, case studies have reported severe liver disorder (venoocclusive

disease, VOD) and even fatalities from the chronic consumption of products that

contain PAs " ...

" Prakash et al.22 recently published an extensive analysis of the literature

associated with the hepatotoxicity of PAs,and they confirm that PAs cause VOD

via metabolic

transformation to highly reactive pyrroles.  Despite its ban in several other

countries, herbal

products that contain comfrey are still available in the US marketplace. Earlier

studies have reported the presence and concentration of PAs in several different

comfrey consumer products. " ...

" the literature associated with the hepatotoxicity of PAs, and they confirm that

PAs cause VOD via metabolic transformation to highly reactive pyrroles.  Despite

its ban in several other countries, herbal products that contain comfrey are

still available in the US

marketplace. Earlier studies have reported the presence and concentration of PAs

in several different comfrey consumer products " ...

" At the onset of our studies, there was some question as to whether the PAs

would be extracted into comfrey tea at all, since they are not particularly

water-soluble. Using a

procedure that approximates the methods of consumers2, herbal teas were prepared

by steeping comfrey leaves in hot water. " ...

" the concentrations of symphytine and echimidine varied considerably within

these extracts. " ...

" the observation of echimidine in these teas could be indicative of varying

levels of contamination of the common comfrey leaves with other species of

Symphytum,

such as the hybrid S. £ uplandicum (Russian comfrey), which is known to contain

echimidine. Also, it is possible that samples that have a higher relative

concentration of the PAs may be contaminated with some root material, as the

root is known to have a much higher concentration of PAs than the leaf " ...

" samples from one specific collection site had a particularly high level of

total PAs as measured against specimens collected elsewhere. Thus, our

observation of variability in

the concentration of PAs in these three tea samples reinforces that the profile

of secondary metabolites in herbal samples is, by nature, variable. The

consumption of teas made from comfrey leaves purchased from any of the three

vendors [tested] exposes consumers to hepatotoxic PAs.  Depending on the source

of the plant material, this exposure could be quite substantial, especially for

those who drink such teas chronically. "

CONCLUSION:

" As has been suggested by other authors, consumption of tea made from comfrey

leaves is ill-advised because of the presence of hepatotoxic PAs, both in the

native form and, possibly to a much larger extent, in the form of the more

water-soluble N-oxides. "

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPHN%2FPHN7_07%2FS136898000400\

1156a.pdf & code=e578c4ada08153cca8274c4fdfabca59

 

I'm apologize for using direct quotes and not taking the time to paraphrase the

information.

Sincerely,Steve Sterling, LAc

 

--- On Sat, 6/13/09, Are Thoresen <arethore wrote:

 

 

Are Thoresen <arethore

SV: Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

 

Saturday, June 13, 2009, 10:34 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Phil and all,

 

My comments are that the way Phil expresses it, that we are to find herbs

that are PROTECTING the liver or kidney, is much better than talking about

detoxifying herbs. In my opinion ALL plants that are stimulating and

strengthening the organ, will make it stronger and more protected against

toxins. So, the best plant to do this, and also stimulate the recovery of

the liver, is SYMPHYTUM OFFICINALE. Again I must allow myself to advocate

the use of western herbs, which seem to fit western people better than

eastern herbs.

 

Are

 

_____

 

Fra:

[] På vegne av

Sendt: 13. juni 2009 21:26

Til: Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine

Emne: Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

 

Hi All,

 

(1) Many Chinese medicinals have actions that protect LV against

toxins. Hepatoprotective Hbs include:

 

Baijiangcao; Baishao; Baizhu; Banyacai; Banzhilian; Biejia; Bulaocao;

Chaihu; Chuanxinlian; Chuipencao; Cilaoya; Dahuang; Daji (Cirsium);

Dangyao; DASUAN; Dazao; Ercha; Ezhu (Guangxi); Fuling; Gancao;

Gouqigen; Gouqizi; Guizhi (Zhi); Heilaohugen; Heshouwu; Hongjingtian;

Huajiao; Huzhang; Jianghuang; Jiaogulan; Jinsitao; Jinyinhua;

Jisongrong; Jixuecao; Kushen; Laoguancao; Lianqiao; Lingzhi;

Longdancao; Luhui; Mayi; Meirenjiaogen; Mohanlian; Mugua; Muxu;

Nuzhenzi; Pugongying; Qinghao; Qingyedan; Qiuguozijinshu; Sanqi;

Shaji; Shandougen; Shechuangzi; Shengjiang; Shengma; Shiliuhua;

Shuifeiji; Shuifeiji; Shuiqin; Tianguadi; Weilingxian; Wenjing;

Wuweizi; Wuzhuyu; Xianggu; Xiangjincai; Xiaoji (Cirsium /

Cephalanoploris) ; Xiecaogen; Xiheliu; Xiyangshen; Yangjinhua;

Yinchenhao; Yunzhi; Zexie; Zhizi; Zhuling; Zishiying;

 

(2) Other Chinese medicinals have actions that protect KI against

toxins. Renoprotective Hbs include:

 

Ejiao; Leigongteng; Renshen; Tufuling.

 

Indeed, many other Hbs that Tone KI and / or act as Diuretics, may

have Renoprotective effects also.

 

(3) Some medicinals have BOTH actions. Examples of Dual

Hepatoprotective + Renoprotective Hbs include:

Danggui; Dahuang; Danshen; Dongchongxiacao; Gegen; Huangqi; Lurong;

 

As LV and KI are the two main rogans involved in detox, it could be

argued that a selection of Hbs from List 3, possibly fortified with 1-

2 herbs from List 1 + 2, could be used as a general Detox Formula.

 

Comments?

 

Best regards,