Guest guest Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Hello! Has anyone had any luck treating loss of / severe reduction in taste with acupuncture/herbs? I have a patient who had a cold and ever since has only 5-10% of his ability to taste (and smell). I have tried various body, face, ear points along with Magnolia Clear Sinus from Evergreen (inhaling the vapors before drinking). His pattern is SP Qi Xu with damp, LPF, slight KD qi xu. Bit of a Livery constitution with some stagnation too. Any input is much appreciated. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 How long ago was the " cold " ? Is there still a virus hanging around? Is there still congestion/stuffiness? I guess there is, thus the Magnolia Rx... or are you just using it for awakening the smell receptors? Loss of smell/taste can be rooted in many causes but probably the most common is a zinc deficiency, which may have gotten depleted during the cold... or for other reasons. A simple google search can elucidate the connection b/w Zn & sense of smell. Here is a site that discusses it, with other suggestions for causation and treatment, including western herbs. http://www.herbs2000.com/disorders/smell_taste.htm Here's another quickie: http://www.mothernature.com/Library/bookshelf/Books/23/133.cfm It might be appropriate to do a saline nasal douche with neti pot twice a day for a couple days, just to refresh the nasal passages, and adjust the pH. On the other hand, if during his cold he used Zicam nasal spray, that may be the cause, since it has been in the news this past month for causing temporary or permanent loss of smell, which of course is related to taste. Ironically, it's the zinc gluconate in it that was the culprit, being caustic to the sinus tissue - - another example of an untested but much touted product causing problems. If that is the case with yr patient, he might be able to receive compensation -- lawyers are standing by on this one trolling the webnet... haha. Sorry no Chinese herbs herein, but I like to get some basics down first. ann On Jul 12, 2009, at 6:58 PM, monicaedlauer wrote: > > > Hello! Has anyone had any luck treating loss of / severe reduction > in taste with acupuncture/herbs? I have a patient who had a cold and > ever since has only 5-10% of his ability to taste (and smell). I > have tried various body, face, ear points along with Magnolia Clear > Sinus from Evergreen (inhaling the vapors before drinking). His > pattern is SP Qi Xu with damp, LPF, slight KD qi xu. Bit of a Livery > constitution with some stagnation too. Any input is much > appreciated. Thanks!! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Ann is right. Three cardinal signs that I see all the time, loss of taste, loss of smell, and under arm body odor, all indicate severe zinc deficiency. As I've said before, it's really easy to test: Metagenics sells a liquid form of zinc sulfate. You have the patient take a teaspoon of it, swish it around in their mouth for 30 seconds and then swallow. If they are zinc deficient, it will taste like pure spring water, and if they have adequate zinc, it will taste metalic and very unpleasant. Varying degrees of deficiency will be anywhere in between. I have found that the most bioavailable form of is zinc picolinate. With severe deficiency, have them take 50 mg TID, for one week, and then test them in a week. There should be some improvement. Remember also that stress, oxalic acid (raw greens like spinach) and phytic acid (grains) all deplete the body of zinc, so encourage your patient to lower their stress level. Good luck! --- On Sun, 7/12/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: A. Brameier <snakeoil.works Re: Loss of taste - Hypogeusia Sunday, July 12, 2009, 9:13 PM How long ago was the " cold " ? Is there still a virus hanging around? Is there still congestion/stuffine ss? I guess there is, thus the Magnolia Rx... or are you just using it for awakening the smell receptors? Loss of smell/taste can be rooted in many causes but probably the most common is a zinc deficiency, which may have gotten depleted during the cold... or for other reasons. A simple google search can elucidate the connection b/w Zn & sense of smell. Here is a site that discusses it, with other suggestions for causation and treatment, including western herbs. http://www.herbs200 0.com/disorders/ smell_taste. htm Here's another quickie: http://www.motherna ture.com/ Library/bookshel f/Books/23/ 133.cfm It might be appropriate to do a saline nasal douche with neti pot twice a day for a couple days, just to refresh the nasal passages, and adjust the pH. On the other hand, if during his cold he used Zicam nasal spray, that may be the cause, since it has been in the news this past month for causing temporary or permanent loss of smell, which of course is related to taste. Ironically, it's the zinc gluconate in it that was the culprit, being caustic to the sinus tissue - - another example of an untested but much touted product causing problems. If that is the case with yr patient, he might be able to receive compensation -- lawyers are standing by on this one trolling the webnet... haha. Sorry no Chinese herbs herein, but I like to get some basics down first. ann On Jul 12, 2009, at 6:58 PM, monicaedlauer wrote: > > > Hello! Has anyone had any luck treating loss of / severe reduction > in taste with acupuncture/ herbs? I have a patient who had a cold and > ever since has only 5-10% of his ability to taste (and smell). I > have tried various body, face, ear points along with Magnolia Clear > Sinus from Evergreen (inhaling the vapors before drinking). His > pattern is SP Qi Xu with damp, LPF, slight KD qi xu. Bit of a Livery > constitution with some stagnation too. Any input is much > appreciated. Thanks!! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Right Yehuda, I should have mentioned the Metagenics liquid zinc, which is called Zinc Tally. But are you sure about that dose? 50 mg tid for a wk?? That's quite a lot, it seems to me. Any dosing over 50 mg/day should include copper - 100mcg of Cu for every 10 mg of Zn. Anyway, 150 mg is about 12 oysters. But every day? Well, that's better than having champagne every day, in my book, but still.... can you find kosher ones?? :-) Here's a page on Zn in general: http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/ ann On Jul 13, 2009, at 2:44 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Ann is right. Three cardinal signs that I see all the time, loss of > taste, loss of smell, and under arm body odor, all indicate severe > zinc deficiency. As I've said before, it's really easy to test: > Metagenics sells a liquid form of zinc sulfate. You have the > patient take a teaspoon of it, swish it around in their mouth for 30 > seconds and then swallow. If they are zinc deficient, it will taste > like pure spring water, and if they have adequate zinc, it will > taste metalic and very unpleasant. Varying degrees of deficiency > will be anywhere in between. I have found that the most > bioavailable form of is zinc picolinate. With severe deficiency, > have them take 50 mg TID, for one week, and then test them in a > week. There should be some improvement. Remember also that stress, > oxalic acid (raw greens like spinach) and phytic acid (grains) all > deplete the body of zinc, so encourage your patient to lower their > stress level. > > Good luck! > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/12/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > A. Brameier <snakeoil.works > Re: Loss of taste - Hypogeusia > > Sunday, July 12, 2009, 9:13 PM > > How long ago was the " cold " ? Is there still a virus hanging around? Is > there still congestion/stuffine ss? I guess there is, thus the > Magnolia > Rx... or are you just using it for awakening the smell receptors? > Loss of smell/taste can be rooted in many causes but probably the most > common is a zinc deficiency, which may have gotten depleted during the > cold... or for other reasons. > A simple google search can elucidate the connection b/w Zn & sense of > smell. Here is a site that discusses it, with other suggestions for > causation and treatment, including western herbs. http://www.herbs2000.com/disorders/ > smell_taste. htm > Here's another quickie: http://www.motherna ture.com/ Library/ > bookshel f/Books/23/ 133.cfm > > It might be appropriate to do a saline nasal douche with neti pot > twice a day for a couple days, just to refresh the nasal passages, and > adjust the pH. > > On the other hand, if during his cold he used Zicam nasal spray, that > may be the cause, since it has been in the news this past month for > causing temporary or permanent loss of smell, which of course is > related to taste. Ironically, it's the zinc gluconate in it that was > the culprit, being caustic to the sinus tissue - - another example of > an untested but much touted product causing problems. If that is the > case with yr patient, he might be able to receive compensation -- > lawyers are standing by on this one trolling the webnet... haha. > > Sorry no Chinese herbs herein, but I like to get some basics down > first. > ann > > On Jul 12, 2009, at 6:58 PM, monicaedlauer wrote: > > > > > > > Hello! Has anyone had any luck treating loss of / severe reduction > > in taste with acupuncture/ herbs? I have a patient who had a cold > and > > ever since has only 5-10% of his ability to taste (and smell). I > > have tried various body, face, ear points along with Magnolia Clear > > Sinus from Evergreen (inhaling the vapors before drinking). His > > pattern is SP Qi Xu with damp, LPF, slight KD qi xu. Bit of a Livery > > constitution with some stagnation too. Any input is much > > appreciated. Thanks!! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 I have been using large doses like that for years, without any problem. More often that not, even with that large dose, (sometimes even larger if the deficient symptoms are blatant) there is still little or no taste using the zinc tally! I also absolutely appreciate your concern about developing a copper deficiency, but the amount of copper needed to prevent that is minimal, and just showering daily with water delivered with copper pipes is more than adequate to prevent deficiency. Solgar makes a zinc picolinate with reliable kosher supervision (If I recall, it also has a micro dose of copper in it as well!) . As always, good to hear from you! --- On Mon, 7/13/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: A. Brameier <snakeoil.works Re: Loss of taste - Hypogeusia Monday, July 13, 2009, 12:26 AM Right Yehuda, I should have mentioned the Metagenics liquid zinc, which is called Zinc Tally. But are you sure about that dose? 50 mg tid for a wk?? That's quite a lot, it seems to me. Any dosing over 50 mg/day should include copper - 100mcg of Cu for every 10 mg of Zn. Anyway, 150 mg is about 12 oysters. But every day? Well, that's better than having champagne every day, in my book, but still.... can you find kosher ones?? :-) Here's a page on Zn in general: http://lpi.oregonst ate.edu/infocent er/minerals/ zinc/ ann On Jul 13, 2009, at 2:44 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Ann is right. Three cardinal signs that I see all the time, loss of > taste, loss of smell, and under arm body odor, all indicate severe > zinc deficiency. As I've said before, it's really easy to test: > Metagenics sells a liquid form of zinc sulfate. You have the > patient take a teaspoon of it, swish it around in their mouth for 30 > seconds and then swallow. If they are zinc deficient, it will taste > like pure spring water, and if they have adequate zinc, it will > taste metalic and very unpleasant. Varying degrees of deficiency > will be anywhere in between. I have found that the most > bioavailable form of is zinc picolinate. With severe deficiency, > have them take 50 mg TID, for one week, and then test them in a > week. There should be some improvement. Remember also that stress, > oxalic acid (raw greens like spinach) and phytic acid (grains) all > deplete the body of zinc, so encourage your patient to lower their > stress level. > > Good luck! > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Sun, 7/12/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> wrote: > > A. Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> > Re: Loss of taste - Hypogeusia > > Sunday, July 12, 2009, 9:13 PM > > How long ago was the " cold " ? Is there still a virus hanging around? Is > there still congestion/stuffine ss? I guess there is, thus the > Magnolia > Rx... or are you just using it for awakening the smell receptors? > Loss of smell/taste can be rooted in many causes but probably the most > common is a zinc deficiency, which may have gotten depleted during the > cold... or for other reasons. > A simple google search can elucidate the connection b/w Zn & sense of > smell. Here is a site that discusses it, with other suggestions for > causation and treatment, including western herbs. http://www.herbs200 0.com/disorders/ > smell_taste. htm > Here's another quickie: http://www.motherna ture.com/ Library/ > bookshel f/Books/23/ 133.cfm > > It might be appropriate to do a saline nasal douche with neti pot > twice a day for a couple days, just to refresh the nasal passages, and > adjust the pH. > > On the other hand, if during his cold he used Zicam nasal spray, that > may be the cause, since it has been in the news this past month for > causing temporary or permanent loss of smell, which of course is > related to taste. Ironically, it's the zinc gluconate in it that was > the culprit, being caustic to the sinus tissue - - another example of > an untested but much touted product causing problems. If that is the > case with yr patient, he might be able to receive compensation -- > lawyers are standing by on this one trolling the webnet... haha. > > Sorry no Chinese herbs herein, but I like to get some basics down > first. > ann > > On Jul 12, 2009, at 6:58 PM, monicaedlauer wrote: > > > > > > > Hello! Has anyone had any luck treating loss of / severe reduction > > in taste with acupuncture/ herbs? I have a patient who had a cold > and > > ever since has only 5-10% of his ability to taste (and smell). I > > have tried various body, face, ear points along with Magnolia Clear > > Sinus from Evergreen (inhaling the vapors before drinking). His > > pattern is SP Qi Xu with damp, LPF, slight KD qi xu. Bit of a Livery > > constitution with some stagnation too. Any input is much > > appreciated. Thanks!! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 haha, Yehuda - I meant kosher oysters!! You may be right about the copper issue. I remain cautious however. I contacted again a Metagenics consultant at the cust serv. Here's what he explained. Picolinic acid is now considered toxic (despite its previous high rep) and most companies in N. America have dropped it, though it is still sold in Europe (though I guess there are still several producers here; after all, there was quite a market for it created a few years ago). Picolinic acid is similar to citric acid in absorption. Amino acid chelations are much better absorbed and tolerated, absorbed more like a peptide than an ionized mineral. Albion labs has done extensive testing on absorption. Metagenics now carries Zinc A.G. w/ zinc arginine & zinc glycine. 20 mg/tab to be taken bid. It still seems moderately priced. At the link I gave in the previous email (below), there was a statement that the superior absorbability of Zn Pic was questionable, though they made no ref to its toxicity, unless I missed it. I haven't reviewed all the lit on this, but I got the impression that at the moderate doses usually recommended, the Pic wouldn't necessarily be a problem. But I do go for absorption, since w/ patients there may be issues of gut integrity and variations in assimilation capacity. The rep did agree that it might take some time to resolve a deficiency d/t variations in digestion/absorption, among other things - this would be all the more reason to use an improved form. He also stated that a few weeks or even a couple months of high dosing would not be sufficient to worry about copper deficiency being engendered, but might be a problem long-term. Ah, now I have to go run get a few oysters. ann On Jul 13, 2009, at 3:35 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > I have been using large doses like that for years, without any > problem. More often that not, even with that large dose, (sometimes > even larger if the deficient symptoms are blatant) there is still > little or no taste using the zinc tally! I also absolutely > appreciate your concern about developing a copper deficiency, but > the amount of copper needed to prevent that is minimal, and just > showering daily with water delivered with copper pipes is more than > adequate to prevent deficiency. Solgar makes a zinc picolinate > with reliable kosher supervision (If I recall, it also has a micro > dose of copper in it as well!) . > > As always, good to hear from you! > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/13/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote: > > A. Brameier <snakeoil.works > Re: Loss of taste - Hypogeusia > > Monday, July 13, 2009, 12:26 AM > > Right Yehuda, > I should have mentioned the Metagenics liquid zinc, which is called > Zinc Tally. > But are you sure about that dose? 50 mg tid for a wk?? That's quite a > lot, it seems to me. Any dosing over 50 mg/day should include copper - > 100mcg of Cu for every 10 mg of Zn. Anyway, 150 mg is about 12 > oysters. But every day? Well, that's better than having champagne > every day, in my book, but still.... can you find kosher ones?? :-) > Here's a page on Zn in general: http://lpi.oregonst ate.edu/infocent > er/minerals/ zinc/ > > ann > > On Jul 13, 2009, at 2:44 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > > > > > Ann is right. Three cardinal signs that I see all the time, loss of > > taste, loss of smell, and under arm body odor, all indicate severe > > zinc deficiency. As I've said before, it's really easy to test: > > Metagenics sells a liquid form of zinc sulfate. You have the > > patient take a teaspoon of it, swish it around in their mouth for 30 > > seconds and then swallow. If they are zinc deficient, it will taste > > like pure spring water, and if they have adequate zinc, it will > > taste metalic and very unpleasant. Varying degrees of deficiency > > will be anywhere in between. I have found that the most > > bioavailable form of is zinc picolinate. With severe deficiency, > > have them take 50 mg TID, for one week, and then test them in a > > week. There should be some improvement. Remember also that stress, > > oxalic acid (raw greens like spinach) and phytic acid (grains) all > > deplete the body of zinc, so encourage your patient to lower their > > stress level. > > > > Good luck! > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/12/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> > wrote: > > > > A. Brameier <snakeoil.works@ verizon.net> > > Re: Loss of taste - Hypogeusia > > > > Sunday, July 12, 2009, 9:13 PM > > > > How long ago was the " cold " ? Is there still a virus hanging > around? Is > > there still congestion/stuffine ss? I guess there is, thus the > > Magnolia > > Rx... or are you just using it for awakening the smell receptors? > > Loss of smell/taste can be rooted in many causes but probably the > most > > common is a zinc deficiency, which may have gotten depleted during > the > > cold... or for other reasons. > > A simple google search can elucidate the connection b/w Zn & sense > of > > smell. Here is a site that discusses it, with other suggestions for > > causation and treatment, including western herbs. http://www.herbs2000.com/disorders/ > > smell_taste. htm > > Here's another quickie: http://www.motherna ture.com/ Library/ > > bookshel f/Books/23/ 133.cfm > > > > It might be appropriate to do a saline nasal douche with neti pot > > twice a day for a couple days, just to refresh the nasal passages, > and > > adjust the pH. > > > > On the other hand, if during his cold he used Zicam nasal spray, > that > > may be the cause, since it has been in the news this past month for > > causing temporary or permanent loss of smell, which of course is > > related to taste. Ironically, it's the zinc gluconate in it that was > > the culprit, being caustic to the sinus tissue - - another example > of > > an untested but much touted product causing problems. If that is the > > case with yr patient, he might be able to receive compensation -- > > lawyers are standing by on this one trolling the webnet... haha. > > > > Sorry no Chinese herbs herein, but I like to get some basics down > > first. > > ann > > > > On Jul 12, 2009, at 6:58 PM, monicaedlauer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello! Has anyone had any luck treating loss of / severe reduction > > > in taste with acupuncture/ herbs? I have a patient who had a cold > > and > > > ever since has only 5-10% of his ability to taste (and smell). I > > > have tried various body, face, ear points along with Magnolia > Clear > > > Sinus from Evergreen (inhaling the vapors before drinking). His > > > pattern is SP Qi Xu with damp, LPF, slight KD qi xu. Bit of a > Livery > > > constitution with some stagnation too. Any input is much > > > appreciated. Thanks!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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