California Acupuncture Board Decreases Herb Portion of Exam

[Guest guest]

Z'ev said:

In my opinion, the biggest weakness in American CM education is

the inability to instill this system of thought in our

students... Living in the modern, post-industrial world, yin-yang

thinking is

counter-intuitive. It has to be practiced constantly to get it

right...

 

Stephen:

Totally agree...but isn't this problem compounded by the fact

that most schools have students study patterns didactlcally in

the first year...only to wait until the second year to begin

watching in clinic...and even longer until they are required to

think with this material? It doesn't seem to reinforce learning

to have students memorize patterns in the 1st year and then wait

a year to apply the knowledge...let the forgetting begin!

perhaps your school is different?

Perhaps there is an expectation that students will review and

practice the material...I wonder how many are so scholarly...

 

Bill Schoenbart said:

One thing is for certain: the current educational system isn't

working as well as it should

 

Stephen:

So gloomy....

but I agree - the key is: what is/are the cure(s)?

 

Bill S. also said:

I do see a problem with students spending a huge portion of their

time studying for cumulative exams and exam preparation classes

 

Stephen:

isn't this a response to poor passing rates? I wonder if the DAOM

programs move the schools to consider the MSTCM as license prep

and DAOM as advanced training?

Perhaps students become reliant on exam prep classes and books

and feel that they don't need to " get it " during school... " I'll

just get through school and focus on exam prep... "

what do you think?

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

Good to hear about your experience. I'm sharing a space with a chiropractor

now,

so when I get my own space (1000 square feet to myself), I'll be putting in

a full-on raw herbal pharmacy.

Then, the flexibility can only improve the quality of treatments.

For right now, I put in orders for raw herbs for about 10% of patients from

the herb company I used to work at.

 

Can you delve into why you feel that raw herbs are better for certain

patients?

which type of conditions especially...

 

Best,

K

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:03 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> On a quick follow-up note - In very busy patients (when appropriate) I will

> graduate them to granulars after they are stabilized and symptoms are

> reduced or eliminated. This is one reason I am clear on the effect of

> granulars versus bulk. It is amazing how many people will demand back the

> bulk herbs. Some though, have no problems with the transition.

>

> -Jason

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of

> Monday, July 27, 2009 11:43 AM

> <%40>

> RE: Re: California Acupuncture Board Decreases Herb Portion

> of Exam

>

> John,

>

> Yes there are many factors. However I do see people from all over, not just

> Boulder. Many are just average mid-west folk that drive (or fly) 1-2 hours

> to see me. Just 3 weeks ago, I saw someone that had not prepared a meal by

> themselves in years. Now they are taking / cooking herbs and feeling better

> (after 1 week). Granulars, IMO, would not have gotten the quick results.

> Now

> going on three weeks, she is happy to keep cooking. I see this over and

> over. I am confident I can get patients to take bulk herbs in any city.

>

> Obviously if you present a patient with 2 options, and you say 1 is easy

> and

> 1 is hard, but both are equally effective, what do you think they will say?

> But in my clinical experience, as well as all practitioners in my office

> such as veterans like Chip Chace, bulk herbs are more effective than

> granulars. We have both.

>

> However if you find something that works great, but I have a very hard time

> believing that patients won't do it. Actually most practitioners here in

> Boulder tell me the same thing that you do, patients just don't have time.

> So it is clear that it is the practitioners issue, not the patients, if I

> can get them to do it. For the record, I went to school in San Diego.

>

> -Jason

>

> 70.13.32/2266 - Release 07/27/09 05:58:00

>

>

[Guest guest]

David,

I think if at this point in time, if acupuncture/moxa and herbal

medicine were offered as separate tracks, one or the other, an

overwhelming majority of applicants would choose acupuncture, because

of familiarity and economic potential, along with the pervading fear

of drug-herb interactions. I agree that our schools should provide

exposure to both. My observation as a teacher is that by the third

year, students tend to gravitate towards focusing more on herbs or

acupuncture (especially Japanese teachings), some have no problem

focusing on both. The doctorate may well be a way eventually of

developing that focus.

 

My opinion on the separation of acupuncture and herbal medicine in

Japan has been to the detriment of herbal medicine, as only M.D.'s or

pharmacists can practice herbal medicine, and therefore the dedication

to the underlying principles is less.

 

 

On Jul 27, 2009, at 8:12 AM, acuman1 wrote:

 

> Interestingly, in China one focuses on one or the other, but is used

> for both at all times. Why don't we have people trained to do both

> well for an entry level doctorate, and focus on one? Specialization

> just ends up costing the patient more, except in cases where one is

> doing one modality at a time like in a hospital situation, as in

> China. Unfortunately, we are a bit of a distance from that ideal here.

> Acupuncture can be more time intensive than herbal medicine, too.

> DAvid Molony

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

It is one thing to memorize patterns, it is another thing to

figure out the pattern for yourself through a process of critical

thinking. These are different skills, and our educational model

largely neglects the critical, pattern recognition skills that are

necessary to practice Chinese medicine.

 

 

 

On Jul 27, 2009, at 11:41 AM, stephen woodley wrote:

 

>

> Stephen:

> Totally agree...but isn't this problem compounded by the fact

> that most schools have students study patterns didactlcally in

> the first year...only to wait until the second year to begin

> watching in clinic...and even longer until they are required to

> think with this material? It doesn't seem to reinforce learning

> to have students memorize patterns in the 1st year and then wait

> a year to apply the knowledge...let the forgetting begin!

> perhaps your school is different?

> Perhaps there is an expectation that students will review and

> practice the material...I wonder how many are so scholarly...

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev wrote: " our educational model

largely neglects the critical, pattern recognition skills that are

necessary to practice Chinese medicine. "

 

Kokko: I agree completely. That's why making a 4 year degree pre-requisite

for entrance to TCM college

might be an idea to implement. Also, to make sure that someone can really

write an entrance essay.

 

The last 2 years of a bachelor's degree teaches you how to think more

critically.

The first 2 years are all survey courses with multiple choice tests. The

second 2 years requires essay-writing

and project management for upper level courses. Yet, many students never

receive these skills.

 

Teachers are fueled by inventive, creative and scholarly students. In turn,

this will bring more teachers into the fold,

who are put-off by just making people memorize and regurgitate information.

I would love to have students write essays,

the problem is that only half of the students in the classes really have

those tools.

 

K

 

 

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephen wrote:

" Perhaps students become reliant on exam prep classes and books

and feel that they don't need to " get it " during school... " I'll

just get through school and focus on exam prep... "

what do you think? "

 

Kokko: From my experience, the students who studied well for the core

classes,

also study well for the review classes. It's more about drive and

discipline than procrastination.

Anyhow, there's no way that someone who failed in the core classes can take

a review course

and pass the CA Boards.

 

But, the way that classes are set up at this point (multiple choice

questions on tests),

(not essays and demonstrative tests) emphasize that many schools teach to

pass the boards.

One reason is reactive. The CA boards are so difficult that schools have to

put so much energy

into preparing their students to pass a 200 question test. The Nationals

are much easier,

evidenced by the pass rates relative to CA pass rates and Nationals by the

same test-takers.

 

So, in my perfect world, I would have a series of tests.... didactic,

case-studies, essay, oral and practical,

with the state boards allowing for deficits in one aspect and strengths in

another as a passing score.

For instance, didactic (40%), case-studies (20%), essay (10%), oral (10%),

practical (20%)

 

In other words, someone who is deficient in the didactic, may be a great

presenter of the information

or even a better writer or practitioner of the medicine. As occupational

analysis goes,

these are all important facets of practicing and teaching the medicine.

 

Yes, I agree that preparing people to just take multiple-choice tests well

enough to pass,

is a dis-service to the medicine. Glad to be having this conversation.

 

K