Fu Zi authenticity and safety

[Guest guest]

Daniel

Did your pt use raw or powders?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon

 

Raw herbs. And I always coarse crush fuzi.

 

Daniel

 

-

Alon Marcus

Monday, August 17, 2009 9:38 AM

Re: Fu Zi authenticity and safety

 

 

Daniel

Did your pt use raw or powders?

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nina Zhao-Seiler <ninaseiler

Re: Fu Zi authenticity and safety

" Eric Brand " <smilinglotus

Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 2:46 AM

Hi Eric,

 

Thank youn for your helpful explanation. About Fuzi

processing: I am not able to see the whole picture of Fuzi

production and processing in China, since I am only a bit

familiar with Fuzi production in Jiangyou, Sichuan, which

is, as is well known, the most famous place for Fuzi

production and processing. I totally agree with you, that it

is not useful to complain about poor quality of medicinals

without supporting the complaint with substantial evidence.

In the Jiangyou area and the ajccing Longmen/Longan

mountains there is a long tradition of fuzi growing and

processing according to " traditional " methods whichn is:

growing of the plant itself in the mountains, digging the

root after the seeds are shed and bringing it to the

lowlands where it makes sideroots, plucking all but one of

them at wintersolstice, so the one can grow large, taking

that one out around summersolstice as " Fuzi " , soaking it in

Calciumchlide salt solution, boiling it, rinsing it, cutting it by

hand knife, steaming the cut pieces, smoking most of them

with sulfursmoke (like we do with dry fruit),

bleaching and drying them in the sun. I dont know how

old the sulfur part is. It is not used on all kinds of fuzi

yingpian and as evrything else has an exact timing and

strenght considered appropriate.

 

During the 60s (old) knowledge was supposed to be spread

and not held secret, so Fuzi production was learned by

people from other places, since then it is grown in Gansu

and elsewhere. Often the dug out roots from other places are

brought/sold to Jiangyou for processing, often those roots

are not as large as the ones grown in Jiangyou. Locals say

its because those farmers dont take the strict growing

procedure seriously.

 

(I imagine, there might be some processing in other places

and then unpacking in Jiangyou to get a better price, but I

havnt seen that)

 

Nowadays the bureau for examination of traditional

medicinals will test for the content of certain substances,

so some producers might boil their Fuzi longer than

tradition says to, to avoid too much aconitine, surely they

have become more aware of that issue, even though here in

Jiangyou the growers and producers themselves control the

aconitine content entirely by traditional measures, that is

exact timing during the different processing steps and of

course are very proud of it. I am convinced, that those

growers still know very well how to grow and process Fuzi of

" good " quality. They produce at least 4 different kinds.

The complaint of " fire school " people like Lu Chonghan in

Sichuan is, that todays Fuzi doesnt work the way it used too.

 

I have not heard them formulate what they think

was the problem more specifically but a general change in production

methods towards more modernized production in terms of machines and

agrochemicals, larger Productions from areas not

quite suitable for Fuzi growing (this is a problem for many

other medicinals as well, the market rules what people grow,

not just tradition), less hand work and more

environmental pollutants in general.

 

Liu Lihong for example has tried to start a " traditional

production Line " of TCM medicinals for this reason, where

evrything is done by hand and according to the scriptures.

He has now realized, that this makes the herbs very very

much more expensive, but he will try to continue (I have

been his translator this year and have talked with his wife

and a student of his about this)

 

As you probably know, there is a generally growing

awareness of environmental pollution and quality problems in

food and medicinals (and other things) in China. The concept

of " quality " is reemerging in mainland China. In my opinion,

the quality concern of " fire school " people is part of this

growing awareness and should be supported but not used as

propaganda for something.

 

Nina

 

Datum: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 00:45:31 -0700 (PDT)

Von: Eric Brand <smilinglotus

An: Nina Zhao-Seiler <ninaseiler,

ericbrand

Betreff: Re: Fu Zi authenticity and safety

 

Hi Nina,

 

Nice to hear from you. What is your impression

on the Fu Zi processing

issue? Do you think that there is a widespread

problem of inadequate

processing as Heiner and Daniel have been

suggesting? I'd love to hear your

impressions since you have been there to research it

personally.

 

As for things like Bai Hu Tang, in the whole formula

the items are all

decocted together. The compound formula

replicates the traditional decoction,

it isn't made by mixing ground shi gao in with the

extracts of the other

ingredients. Everything is boiled together so

the extract should come out

very similar to what a patient would naturally get by

cooking the formula

themselves the traditional way.

 

By contrast, if one mixed Bai Hu Tang together from

single herb extracts,

the issue of variability would come up. Doctors

in Taiwan nearly always

start from a base of whole formulas cooked together,

so their issue with the

Bai Hu Tang/Shi Gao is minimal. In mainland

China, many companies mix

granule formulas purely from single herb extracts, so

this variable is

something to be aware of. However, in the

mainland they also typically use a water

extract to replicate the traditional boiling of Shi

Gao. This is still a

bit imperfect because basically they are just trying

to identify the ideal

degree of crushing of the mineral so that 5 kilos of

raw mineral yields one

kilo of extract. The actual mineral that goes in

is virtually the same as

what comes out in a single mineral extract- the only

difference is that it

has been ground and boiled so that a 5:1 ratio is

preserved for marketing

purposes. In other words, they figure out how

fine to grind it so

that their yield (the amount of mineral that

gets suspended in the water)

still shows a 5:1 ratio or raw material to finished

product.

 

Eric

 

--- On Mon, 8/17/09, Nina Zhao-Seiler <ninaseiler

wrote:

 

Nina Zhao-Seiler <ninaseiler

Re: Fu Zi authenticity and safety

smilinglotus

Monday, August 17, 2009, 7:12 AM

 

Dear Eric

I have been following the discussion on Fuzi

with great interest, specially since i have just

returned

from Sichuan where i have visited several herbal

plantation

and yingpian production sites, including once

again a

traditional Fuzi growing and processing site in

Jiangyou

(though this year i have visited a

different one than

i usually do, since that one was distroyed in the

earthquake

and the owner cannot process anything this year).

The whole

process of producing a safe Fuzi yingpian is

amazing and

complex, specially when considering what a long

history it

has!In fact, I am writing to you on a different

subject, which you are expert in: dosage of

granules. I am

wondering how people in taiwan and how you dose

shi gao in

baihutang as granule. You have said, that people

in taiwan

only use a very small amount of mineral

substances in

granule formulas, since these are not decocted

granules but

milled minerals. How is that in the case of

baihutang? Our

granule supplier (he sells sunten products) has a

baihu tang

with 49 % of Shi gao. Thank you very much

for your

answer.

Sincerely,

 

Nina

Zhao-SeilerPraxis für Traditionelle Chinesische

MedizinWilfriedstrasse 8CH-8032

ZürichTel: +41 44 251 1331Fax:

+41 43 243 6990ninaseiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--

Nina Zhao-Seiler

Praxis Wilfriedstrasse 8

CH-8032 Zürich

Tel:+41(0)44 2511331 privat:+41(0)44 3413077

Fax:+41(0)43 2436990

 

ninaseiler

www.tongentangpraxis.org

www.tcmherbs.org