Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 For those who are interested in accessing primary sources in the primary language, here is a quick list of the things I have found helpful in studying primary sources in classical Chinese. I am hoping this will be a good starting point for people to talk about what books or methods they have used to get a grasp of classical Chinese, as we all have different learning styles and methods that work for us: Paul Unchuld's Dictionary of the Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen is excellent. This book is a pretty amazing accomplishment-every character of the Su Wen is presented. It is accessible, easy to use as a reference and as primary study of the Su Wen. I have found using this is a great way to build my skills in vocabulary. The only downside is the price-tag, but for me it is worth it. The best book I have found so far is Classical Chinese Medical Texts by Richard Goodman. I have to say that after years of frustration with other books, something about this book put me over the top in my ability to read. I could access all of the other books I am going to mention below with more clarity. I find Goodman to be very approachable and helpful if I run into difficulty. He is doing a free class on his blog, but it has recently slowed down because he is finishing Vol II. He is a great resource for people studying classical Chinese, and especially knowledgeable regarding grammar. If I had to have only one, this would be the one. http://classicalmedicine.wordpress.com Also, try A New Introduction to Literary Chinese by Rouzner. This is the best book on Classical Chinese outside of medicine I have seen. He uses a wide variety of early texts. It's too difficult for absolute beginners, but with a little knowledge it's very useful and some of the texts are surprisingly fun and not to be found in most Chinese textbooks. Studying this book has helped me access texts in medicine greatly and with a bit more fluency, but I would have to say it is for people who really want to broaden their knowledge outside of medicine. If you want only medical texts, then the methodology used in this book is very similar to Goodman's. Wiseman's dictionary is already well known. How useful is it for reading classical texts? I have only found it moderately so, as many of the characters that appear in classical texts are not to be found in this dictionary-he only includes the characters that represent the most common terms. Grammar particles are absent, as are the multitude of common characters that appear both inside and outside of classical medical texts. This shouldn't discourage people from owning a copy, as what he covers is covered in great detail. For people who want to read the earlier classics, Unschuld's dictionary is a better choice. I personally have not found Wiseman's other language books to be very helpful. I bought them, looked through them, but found no way to actually use them. The character books would, imo, be much better in a `workbook' format rather than a small paperback format. I didn't find the grammar book to really be a grammar book per se, but more of a collection of nouns and verbs that are commonly used together. If others have found use for them, I would love to hear about it. This may be due to personal learning style. I have to admit that I found Unschuld's Chinese Life Sciences a bit disappointing, but I would say that it could be useful to people who are at least intermediate learners. He chose 60 texts, all arranged by subject matter, which include the Chinese, pinyin, and a translation. Unfortunately, some of the texts are extremely long making it nearly impossible to match the pinyin with its character and then match the corresponding passage in the translation. This book is not for beginners, as he does not really explain the grammar or break down any of the sentences. I would say that if you have a couple of years of modern Chinese under your belt, or have studied classical Chinese elsewhere, it might be worth the investment. However, I found that by the time I reached the level where this book could be useful, I didn't really need it any longer because I could already access the primary texts. He includes a reference list for researching Chinese medicine, which is great, but similar information can be found for free online here: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~nsivin/ (by Nathan Sivin) The best Chinese-Chinese dictionary, used and recommended by academics, is the " han yu da ci dian. " If you can read modern and classical Chinese, you probably already have it or know about it. If you need an English-Chinese dictionary, I do not think there is a great one. Many people still use Matthews, but I find it far too simplistic in its definitions. I got rid of my copy years ago. The free online dictionary at http://www.zhongwen.com is probably a good place to start, but is mostly modern. Unless I am reading something particularly difficult, I have found that I do not really need to get out my Chinese to Chinese dictionary. If I see a character that I do not know, I will find it in either Goodman (esp for grammar), Unschuld (either of his two books mentioned above), Wiseman, or Rouzner (for grammar and characters not common medicine). If you have all of the books I mentioned above, I would say that you will have enough references at hand to find what you are looking for. I may do another follow up post to list some secondary sources inside and outside of medicine that I like, but for now I will just say that I have found all of Unschuld's history and textual books extremely helpful in how I approach a text. Reading Chinese is just one aspect, but how we approach it will effect what we take from it. I have found that knowledge of history of texts and of periods is extremely helpful. As far as secondary sources go, I think his research is extremely helpful for placing a text within its time period. I look forward to hearing others' thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 I am not familiar with this one, but am unable to find it on the Internet. Are you sure that this author is correct? I did find: A New Introduction to Classical Chinese (Paperback) by Raymond <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5 Fencoding=UTF8 & sort=relevancerank & search-type=ss & index=books & field-author=Ra ymond%20Dawson> Dawson (Author) is this it? If not could you provide had ISBN, thanks... -Jason On Behalf Of d_munez Also, try A New Introduction to Literary Chinese by Rouzner. This is the best book on Classical Chinese outside of medicine I have seen. He uses a wide variety of early texts. It's too difficult for absolute beginners, but with a little knowledge it's very useful and some of the texts are surprisingly fun and not to be found in most Chinese textbooks. Studying this book has helped me access texts in medicine greatly and with a bit more fluency, but I would have to say it is for people who really want to broaden their knowledge outside of medicine. If you want only medical texts, then the methodology used in this book is very similar to Goodman's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Hi Jason, Sorry, I quoted the title wrong. I was talking about: " A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese " by Paul Rouzer. http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Literary-Chinese-Harvard-Monographs/dp/067402270\ X Here are the others for easier reference: " Classical Chinese Medical Texts Vol I " by Richard Goodman http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Chinese-Medical-Texts-Learning/dp/0982321201 " A Dictionary of the Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen " by Paul Unschuld http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Huang-Philip-Lilienthal-Studies/dp/0520253582 " Practical Dictionary of " by Nigel Wiseman http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/PraDicChiMed.cfm Hope that helps...sorry about the mix up with the other title. I have seen the other book you found by Dawson and I do not recommend it-his selections are boring and he explains almost nothing. , " " wrote: > > I am not familiar with this one, but am unable to find it on the Internet. > Are you sure that this author is correct? I did find: > > A New Introduction to Classical Chinese (Paperback) > > by Raymond > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5 > Fencoding=UTF8 & sort=relevancerank & search-type=ss & index=books & field-author=Ra > ymond%20Dawson> Dawson (Author) > > > > is this it? If not could you provide had ISBN, thanks... > > > > -Jason > > > > > On Behalf Of d_munez > > > > > Also, try A New Introduction to Literary Chinese by Rouzner. This is the > best book on Classical Chinese outside of medicine I have seen. He uses a > wide variety of early texts. It's too difficult for absolute beginners, but > with a little knowledge it's very useful and some of the texts are > surprisingly fun and not to be found in most Chinese textbooks. Studying > this book has helped me access texts in medicine greatly and with a bit more > fluency, but I would have to say it is for people who really want to broaden > their knowledge outside of medicine. If you want only medical texts, then > the methodology used in this book is very similar to Goodman's. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 , " d_munez " <d_munez wrote: > > For those who are interested in accessing primary sources in the primary language, here is a quick list of the things I have found helpful in studying primary sources in classical Chinese. Thank you for sharing all these insightful posts! I would add that for Chinese readers interested in classical Chinese medical texts, there are a variety of specialized dictionaries available for some of the most important classics. For example, there are Nei Jing concordance dictionaries that catalog every key term in the Nei Jing. These dictionaries often break the meaning down for every instance that a given term appears in the Nei Jing (i.e., in Ling Shu Ch. 1, line x, it means xyz, in Su Wen Ch. 6, line a, it means xyz, etc). Specialized dictionaries also exist for books such as the Jin Gui and the Shang Han Lun. These dictionaries are essential for researching the varied nuances of the terms that appear in these classical works. The terms in ancient literature are often used in different contexts and sometimes have different meanings than the same terms in modern literature. Thus, researchers invariably need to read widely on any given topic to understand the full context. Understanding classical Chinese is difficult even if Chinese is one's native language. In fact, even for modern textbook stuff, one needs dozens of books to really research any given topic. Basically you find every book that you can lay your hands on for your topic of interest, and you read them all. As Chinese readers know, it is not a question of looking up a word in a Chinese-English dictionary and then extrapolating on all the potential interpretations based on the habits and constructs of your own native language. On the topic of Wiseman's language books, I agree that the grammar books are not really like comprehensive grammar textbooks, especially if you want to study classical Chinese or disciplines beyond Chinese medicine. That said, by the time you master every concept in the grammar book and the vocab book, you are pretty much all set to read almost anything you want in the CM literature. No matter how many decades one has been studying, one will always still have to look up words. But over time one has to look up fewer and fewer words, which is a nice feeling. I may be a bit biased because Wiseman was my teacher in Taiwan, and it is always easier to learn if you are immersed in a Chinese environment (especially if you have Nigel Wiseman tutoring you almost every day). I remember once telling Nigel that his books were perfect for bathroom reading or reading on the subway, because it is too boring to read it for a long time but it really sticks if you read it in little chunks again and again. I think that Wiseman's grammar and vocab book was the best single book that I used. But really what you need is to take something simple and repetitive, like a dietary therapy book, and just keep translating it until you master that type of vocab. Then you pick up a harder book like a formulas text and start the process all over again. Eventually, you can read whatever, but you will always look up words occasionally if not constantly. I wrote a little blog with some of my own advice on learning Chinese, for whatever it is worth: http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/07/06/advice-on-learning-chin\ ese Also, you can download (for free) Nigel's term glossary on my website, it is a great resource for looking up words. It has over 30,000 terms so it is wider in scope than his Practical Dictionary, but it doesn't have definitions like the dictionary has. Find it here: http://www.legendaryherbs.com/professionalcorner.html Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Thanks for the update! -Jason On Behalf Of d_munez Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:48 AM Re: Primary Sources Hi Jason, Sorry, I quoted the title wrong. I was talking about: " A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese " by Paul Rouzer. http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Literary-Chinese-Harvard-Monographs/dp/06740 2270X Here are the others for easier reference: " Classical Chinese Medical Texts Vol I " by Richard Goodman http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Chinese-Medical-Texts-Learning/dp/0982321201 " A Dictionary of the Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen " by Paul Unschuld http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Huang-Philip-Lilienthal-Studies/dp/05202535 82 " Practical Dictionary of " by Nigel Wiseman http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/PraDicChiMed.cfm Hope that helps...sorry about the mix up with the other title. I have seen the other book you found by Dawson and I do not recommend it-his selections are boring and he explains almost nothing. <%40> , " " wrote: > > I am not familiar with this one, but am unable to find it on the Internet. > Are you sure that this author is correct? I did find: > > A New Introduction to Classical Chinese (Paperback) > > by Raymond > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5 <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%2 55> > Fencoding=UTF8 & sort=relevancerank & search-type=ss & index=books & field-author=Ra > ymond%20Dawson> Dawson (Author) > > > > is this it? If not could you provide had ISBN, thanks... > > > > -Jason > > > > <%40> > [ <%40> ] On Behalf Of d_munez > > > > > Also, try A New Introduction to Literary Chinese by Rouzner. This is the > best book on Classical Chinese outside of medicine I have seen. He uses a > wide variety of early texts. It's too difficult for absolute beginners, but > with a little knowledge it's very useful and some of the texts are > surprisingly fun and not to be found in most Chinese textbooks. Studying > this book has helped me access texts in medicine greatly and with a bit more > fluency, but I would have to say it is for people who really want to broaden > their knowledge outside of medicine. If you want only medical texts, then > the methodology used in this book is very similar to Goodman's. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Hi Eric, When I was thinking about primary sources, I was thinking about classical Chinese and not modern Chinese writing. Perhaps this is a bias on my part. The books I suggested were based mostly on reading classical Chinese. I have noticed that a lot of people do not know that classical and modern Chinese are really independent languages-early in my training, I didn't know this. Reading classical Chinese is a skill that people have to pick up on purpose regardless of their native language. Of the books I mentioned, Goodman, Rouzer, and Unschuld focus on classical Chinese. The Wiseman books all focus on modern, but there is *some* overlap into classical. I think once people get through these, it's time to move on to the all Chinese sources Eric mentioned and in this case, Wiseman's grammar book would be extremely helpful. I moved my copy from the shelf to the bathroom PS: I noticed that the link I provided for the Rouzer book does not work because the final letter X, which should be included, didn't make it. Add the X and the link should work. , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus wrote: > > , " d_munez " <d_munez@> wrote: > > > > For those who are interested in accessing primary sources in the primary language, here is a quick list of the things I have found helpful in studying primary sources in classical Chinese. > > Thank you for sharing all these insightful posts! I would add that for Chinese readers interested in classical Chinese medical texts, there are a variety of specialized dictionaries available for some of the most important classics. For example, there are Nei Jing concordance dictionaries that catalog every key term in the Nei Jing. These dictionaries often break the meaning down for every instance that a given term appears in the Nei Jing (i.e., in Ling Shu Ch. 1, line x, it means xyz, in Su Wen Ch. 6, line a, it means xyz, etc). > > Specialized dictionaries also exist for books such as the Jin Gui and the Shang Han Lun. These dictionaries are essential for researching the varied nuances of the terms that appear in these classical works. The terms in ancient literature are often used in different contexts and sometimes have different meanings than the same terms in modern literature. Thus, researchers invariably need to read widely on any given topic to understand the full context. > > Understanding classical Chinese is difficult even if Chinese is one's native language. In fact, even for modern textbook stuff, one needs dozens of books to really research any given topic. Basically you find every book that you can lay your hands on for your topic of interest, and you read them all. As Chinese readers know, it is not a question of looking up a word in a Chinese-English dictionary and then extrapolating on all the potential interpretations based on the habits and constructs of your own native language. > > On the topic of Wiseman's language books, I agree that the grammar books are not really like comprehensive grammar textbooks, especially if you want to study classical Chinese or disciplines beyond Chinese medicine. That said, by the time you master every concept in the grammar book and the vocab book, you are pretty much all set to read almost anything you want in the CM literature. > > No matter how many decades one has been studying, one will always still have to look up words. But over time one has to look up fewer and fewer words, which is a nice feeling. I may be a bit biased because Wiseman was my teacher in Taiwan, and it is always easier to learn if you are immersed in a Chinese environment (especially if you have Nigel Wiseman tutoring you almost every day). I remember once telling Nigel that his books were perfect for bathroom reading or reading on the subway, because it is too boring to read it for a long time but it really sticks if you read it in little chunks again and again. > > I think that Wiseman's grammar and vocab book was the best single book that I used. But really what you need is to take something simple and repetitive, like a dietary therapy book, and just keep translating it until you master that type of vocab. Then you pick up a harder book like a formulas text and start the process all over again. Eventually, you can read whatever, but you will always look up words occasionally if not constantly. > > I wrote a little blog with some of my own advice on learning Chinese, for whatever it is worth: > http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/07/06/advice-on-learning-chin\ ese > > Also, you can download (for free) Nigel's term glossary on my website, it is a great resource for looking up words. It has over 30,000 terms so it is wider in scope than his Practical Dictionary, but it doesn't have definitions like the dictionary has. Find it here: > http://www.legendaryherbs.com/professionalcorner.html > > Eric Brand > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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