Direction of qi flow in the channels and five phase shu-transport points

[Guest guest]

Hi,

The recent heated discussions have inspired me to look critically at the

information presented in my text books (yes i am a student).

 

Firstly, what has been stumping me is the incongruity of the direction of qi

flow in the channel. When talking about shu transport points it moves from the

extremities to the chest or head, but when looking at the meridians as a whole

it has more of a self contained circulation of qi flow.In reading Wang-ju Yi's

applied channel theory he ascribes that this can be explained that there are two

different qi flows that occur simultaneously, and that this can be divided into

the Functional qi (i think he may mean zhen qi) and nutritive-defensive qi

(ying-wei). The nutritive-defensive (ying-wei)follows the self-contained qi flow

model and actually feeds into the centripetal flow that the shu-transport

points. I have not come across this before as a theory and although i think it

does seem to describe well these seemingly opposed theories i am cautious about

taking it on board as i am unable to read chinese and compare it to what other

authors say. I ask people on this community to advise.

 

Secondly, after reading the discussions of JR worsley and associated threads i

am a little confused about what i am being taught in regards to the elements

associated to shu-transport points. i have done a little research over the last

few days about the elements ascribed to these points and in the texts that i own

i have been unable to find when this occurred (i checked jia yi jing, deadmans

acupuncture, pirog's meridian therapy, the above said advanced channel theory

and a few others). I must admit i am a little confused as to what constitutes

five element acupuncture but i do often hear a lot about the selection of these

points based upon the element they have as opposed to their indications. i would

appreciate some elucidation upon my confusion.

 

I currently go to a school in Melbourne that trains alternative medicine

practitioners (homeopaths, naturopaths etc) and often doesnt explain to the

student body in an open way about how new certain concepts are ie Nogier's ear

acupuncture. This leads to the students believing that these newer concepts have

always been part of acupuncture historically. I find this misleading and leading

to confusion for me and others. Personally for the moment i am happy to be

taught TCM (mainstream cm) concepts rather than having the waters muddied with

other eclectic schools of thought. Certainly when i complete my studies i will

explore these but i think then i would be clearer about where these

concepts/Schools of thought have come from.

 

happy for some learned input.

 

Thanks,

Michael

[Guest guest]

Great questions... Wang's ideas are very new as I understand it and are a well

considered attempt to rectify the very questions you bring up and few have

attempted to answer so far. So they don't appear in modern textbooks (yet). The

functional qi isn't Zhen (that is simply Ying plus Wei) but I see it as

explained in two ways. One is that functional qi is Channel Qi, or that which

makes up the properties of the actions of individual organs. And this functional

qi is the potential that the organs have for expressing their actions. In other

words, in the channels the qi isn't doing anything but waiting to be transported

to the organs.

That's how I see it. In the Wang book they get real close to explaining but then

go to a metaphor... perhaps we can get a better explanation from Jason Robertson

or others.

 

As a teacher I frequently have to say to students that, this or the other isn't

3000 years (sic) old. Even now I can see the look of disappointment on their

faces. When I teach microsystems I point out that Chinese medicine is a living

and dynamic art and such systems come out of this and specifically the

integration of Western Medicine.

 

As to the shu points in the way I think you mean, you would have to look at some

other books. You can start with 5 Elements by the Hicks. The classic 4 needle

technique is about 400 years old, from Korea, according to them.

 

I'm realizing, a little late perhaps, is that learning (and teaching) basics is

basically a study of the Nei Jing and Nan Jing. Duhhh... Most everything else is

elucidation. Am I off base here?

 

Doug

 

 

 

, " boringemailname " <lidongyuan

wrote:

>

> Hi,

> The recent heated discussions have inspired me to look critically at the

information presented in my text books (yes i am a student).

>

> Firstly, what has been stumping me is the incongruity of the direction of qi

flow in the channel. When talking about shu transport points it moves from the

extremities to the chest or head, but when looking at the meridians as a whole

it has more of a self contained circulation of qi flow.In reading Wang-ju Yi's

applied channel theory he ascribes that this can be explained that there are two

different qi flows that occur simultaneously, and that this can be divided into

the Functional qi (i think he may mean zhen qi) and nutritive-defensive qi

(ying-wei). The nutritive-defensive (ying-wei)follows the self-contained qi flow

model and actually feeds into the centripetal flow that the shu-transport

points. I have not come across this before as a theory and although i think it

does seem to describe well these seemingly opposed theories i am cautious about

taking it on board as i am unable to read chinese and compare it to what other

authors say. I ask people on this community to advise.

>

> Secondly, after reading the discussions of JR worsley and associated threads i

am a little confused about what i am being taught in regards to the elements

associated to shu-transport points. i have done a little research over the last

few days about the elements ascribed to these points and in the texts that i own

i have been unable to find when this occurred (i checked jia yi jing, deadmans

acupuncture, pirog's meridian therapy, the above said advanced channel theory

and a few others). I must admit i am a little confused as to what constitutes

five element acupuncture but i do often hear a lot about the selection of these

points based upon the element they have as opposed to their indications. i would

appreciate some elucidation upon my confusion.

>

> I currently go to a school in Melbourne that trains alternative medicine

practitioners (homeopaths, naturopaths etc) and often doesnt explain to the

student body in an open way about how new certain concepts are ie Nogier's ear

acupuncture. This leads to the students believing that these newer concepts have

always been part of acupuncture historically. I find this misleading and leading

to confusion for me and others. Personally for the moment i am happy to be

taught TCM (mainstream cm) concepts rather than having the waters muddied with

other eclectic schools of thought. Certainly when i complete my studies i will

explore these but i think then i would be clearer about where these

concepts/Schools of thought have come from.

>

> happy for some learned input.

>

> Thanks,

> Michael

>

[Guest guest]

Michael/Doug

 

It is my understanding from Dr. Wang that he sees his reconciliation of the type

of qi circulation described in Chapters 2 and 10 of the ling shu as a

hypotheses. His assertion comes from thinking about what exactly he is feeling

when he palpates the channels.

 

In short, he feels that the changes he finds diagnostically significant are

coming from obstructions in the process of qi development (as Doug correctly

points out 'channel qi'). On the other hand, there seems to be a simultaneous

circulation of ying-wei- the net result of yin organ physiology. In his

conception, channel qi grows from the well to the sea points on the way to the

organs by drawing from the ying-wei produced by the organs. In other words, it

is a circuit.

 

This is one reading of the classical texts. As usual, there is room for other

interpretations. Michael, I think that you will find that there are often no

absolute answers. As we hash out other possible meanings, new ideas can come

about. I would be excited to hear what others think.

 

Respectfully,

 

Jason Robertson

[Guest guest]

Aha... so in terms of moving from well to sea, a knot at SP 6 is the cause of

spleen xu as much as the result of it? Whereas a red spot at Lu 6 is an

indication of improper ying and wei at that point?

Doug

 

, " kentuckyginseng "

<kentuckyginseng wrote:

>

> Michael/Doug

>

> It is my understanding from Dr. Wang that he sees his reconciliation of the

type of qi circulation described in Chapters 2 and 10 of the ling shu as a

hypotheses. His assertion comes from thinking about what exactly he is feeling

when he palpates the channels.

>

> In short, he feels that the changes he finds diagnostically significant are

coming from obstructions in the process of qi development (as Doug correctly

points out 'channel qi'). On the other hand, there seems to be a simultaneous

circulation of ying-wei- the net result of yin organ physiology. In his

conception, channel qi grows from the well to the sea points on the way to the

organs by drawing from the ying-wei produced by the organs. In other words, it

is a circuit.

>

> This is one reading of the classical texts. As usual, there is room for other

interpretations. Michael, I think that you will find that there are often no

absolute answers. As we hash out other possible meanings, new ideas can come

about. I would be excited to hear what others think.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Jason Robertson

>

[Guest guest]

sure. also information flows both ways at various speeds in the channels. some

points or places are more centrifugal or centripetal. correcting it is intent

and needle technique, correcting itself is a big story. spl6  is a deep point,

hard to touch properly.

 

--- On Sun, 8/30/09, wrote:

 

 

Re: Direction of qi flow in the channels and five phase

shu-transport points

 

Sunday, August 30, 2009, 9:43 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aha... so in terms of moving from well to sea, a knot at SP 6

is the cause of spleen xu as much as the result of it? Whereas a red spot at Lu

6 is an indication of improper ying and wei at that point?

 

Doug

 

 

 

, " kentuckyginseng " <kentuckyginseng@

....> wrote:

 

>

 

> Michael/Doug

 

>

 

> It is my understanding from Dr. Wang that he sees his reconciliation of the

type of qi circulation described in Chapters 2 and 10 of the ling shu as a

hypotheses. His assertion comes from thinking about what exactly he is feeling

when he palpates the channels.

 

>

 

> In short, he feels that the changes he finds diagnostically significant are

coming from obstructions in the process of qi development (as Doug correctly

points out 'channel qi'). On the other hand, there seems to be a simultaneous

circulation of ying-wei- the net result of yin organ physiology. In his

conception, channel qi grows from the well to the sea points on the way to the

organs by drawing from the ying-wei produced by the organs. In other words, it

is a circuit.

 

>

 

> This is one reading of the classical texts. As usual, there is room for other

interpretations. Michael, I think that you will find that there are often no

absolute answers. As we hash out other possible meanings, new ideas can come

about. I would be excited to hear what others think.

 

>

 

> Respectfully,

 

>

 

> Jason Robertson

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Doug Wrote:

 

Aha... so in terms of moving from well to sea, a knot at SP 6 is the

cause of spleen xu as much as the result of it? Whereas a red spot at Lu

6 is an indication of improper ying and wei at that point?

 

This is an excellent question. In terms of Dr. Wang's hypothesis, this

would be the case.

 

As Mystir also pointed out, there seems to be a two-way flow of

information. For me the question is, " to what degree is the knot at SP-6

the cause of the spleen deficiency to what degree is it a reflection of

organ status " . It seems to me that, relatively speaking, the changes we

can palpate along channel pathways are more coming from the organs than

the channels. This makes a bit more sense if we think of the channels

as being integral parts of the organs themselves as opposed to hollow

pathways carrying information to and fro. The channels seem to be more

like the roots of a tree than the wiring in the walls of our house. When

the trunk or leaves of the tree are not well, the tree sheds root mass.

In our bodies, when physiology in the larger sense is compromised in

some way, then our roots show changes.

 

A related question would be, " What about when we have scars, broken

bones or other injuries along the pathways of the channels? Do these

affect organ health? " I would be interested in hearing thoughts from

others on this topic. My experience is that the channels often continue

to function normally but that their palpated structure changes. Like the

roots of a tree adjusting their trajectories due to the morphology of

the environment, the channels re-route around scars and other external

injuries. However, I'm still observing to see if these external injuries

can cause serious long-term physiological problems. It seems to me that

a much great cause of illness would be not circulating the channels due

to a lack of excercise. It is the very draw of vigorous movement which

stimulates the organs to make more qi and blood.

 

Respectfully