Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Just got back from an eight-day retreat and read several personal e-mails from Eric, Jason, Alon, etc. about some gonif in the Ukraine selling a CD of pirated TCM books, many or most of which are owned by Blue Poppy. Since this is a Ukraine company, there's nothing that I know of that can be done about this -- no way to make it go away. So I can only hope that members of our profession will not buy such pirated materials. It's really very simple. American companies will simply stop publishing if what they publish turns up on-line in pirated digital editions. It's very much a case of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Dr. Fedyniak may think he's doing the profession a service (or not; I don't know), but, ultimately, he's doing the profession the absolutely worst thing he could. If authors, translators, and publishers can't get paid for their time, effort, investment, and the financial risk that goes along with all of that, they simply won't continue to produce. For myself, all I can say is that I'm happy I'm at the end of my professional involvement with publishing. I really can't see a viable way forward at this point in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 What do you think of Google Books? I've just read several pages out of Treating Western Diseases there. At least there is a link to buy the book from several retailers. Doug , " pemachophel2001 " <bob wrote: > > Just got back from an eight-day retreat and read several personal e-mails from Eric, Jason, Alon, etc. about some gonif in the Ukraine selling a CD of pirated TCM books, many or most of which are owned by Blue Poppy. Since this is a Ukraine company, there's nothing that I know of that can be done about this -- no way to make it go away. So I can only hope that members of our profession will not buy such pirated materials. It's really very simple. American companies will simply stop publishing if what they publish turns up on-line in pirated digital editions. It's very much a case of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Dr. Fedyniak may think he's doing the profession a service (or not; I don't know), but, ultimately, he's doing the profession the absolutely worst thing he could. If authors, translators, and publishers can't get paid for their time, effort, investment, and the financial risk that goes along with all of that, they simply won't continue to produce. > > For myself, all I can say is that I'm happy I'm at the end of my professional involvement with publishing. I really can't see a viable way forward at this point in time. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 This is evil, no more no less. I think another statement to the profession by the publishers, schools, etc. is in order. . . On Sep 1, 2009, at 10:27 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: > Just got back from an eight-day retreat and read several personal e- > mails from Eric, Jason, Alon, etc. about some gonif in the Ukraine > selling a CD of pirated TCM books, many or most of which are owned > by Blue Poppy. Since this is a Ukraine company, there's nothing that > I know of that can be done about this -- no way to make it go away. > So I can only hope that members of our profession will not buy such > pirated materials. It's really very simple. American companies will > simply stop publishing if what they publish turns up on-line in > pirated digital editions. It's very much a case of killing the goose > that laid the golden egg. Dr. Fedyniak may think he's doing the > profession a service (or not; I don't know), but, ultimately, he's > doing the profession the absolutely worst thing he could. If > authors, translators, and publishers can't get paid for their time, > effort, investment, and the financial risk that goes along with all > of that, they simply won't continue to produce. > > For myself, all I can say is that I'm happy I'm at the end of my > professional involvement with publishing. I really can't see a > viable way forward at this point in time. > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Hopefully others value actual books as much as I do. -Jason On Behalf Of Tuesday, September 01, 2009 11:59 AM Re: Piracy What do you think of Google Books? I've just read several pages out of Treating Western Diseases there. At least there is a link to buy the book from several retailers. Doug <%40> , " pemachophel2001 " <bob wrote: > > Just got back from an eight-day retreat and read several personal e-mails from Eric, Jason, Alon, etc. about some gonif in the Ukraine selling a CD of pirated TCM books, many or most of which are owned by Blue Poppy. Since this is a Ukraine company, there's nothing that I know of that can be done about this -- no way to make it go away. So I can only hope that members of our profession will not buy such pirated materials. It's really very simple. American companies will simply stop publishing if what they publish turns up on-line in pirated digital editions. It's very much a case of killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Dr. Fedyniak may think he's doing the profession a service (or not; I don't know), but, ultimately, he's doing the profession the absolutely worst thing he could. If authors, translators, and publishers can't get paid for their time, effort, investment, and the financial risk that goes along with all of that, they simply won't continue to produce. > > For myself, all I can say is that I'm happy I'm at the end of my professional involvement with publishing. I really can't see a viable way forward at this point in time. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Google Books is fine. That's legit. We've signed a contract with them. We get our piece. So feel free to patronize them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Ben, When this happened a couple of years back (the case to which you were referring, I believe), we were able to tell the FBI exactly who the perpetrator was. As far as I know, they took no action. After taking down all the details, Bob Felt of Paradigm Publications, our point man on that episode, never heard back anything, ever. In fact, it was only a couple of months ago we were visiting Bob and Martha and I asked about that case. Nada, zip, no feedback from the FBI at all. Your tax dollars at work, my friends. If it doesn't involve mega-bucks, they ain't apparently interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Evil? Maybe, although I hate to use that word for something that is only theft. Mendacious, short-sighted, and harmful to the profession -- most definitely. If that damage to the profession results in damage to patients' health and longevity, now and in the future, then maybe I could see it as truly evil. In any case, " Just say no. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 In the case of our profession, the pressure needs to be put on the schools. In most major universities, you can now be expelled for storing illegally obtained material. It seems that most of this activity, in the US at least, is happening in schools where students " go in together " and copy or scan. I doubt that any CM school that has a policy for expelling students who steal and share pirated materials with classmates (I hope I'm wrong). My (limited) experience with schools in the US is that they put up with a lot from students to save their bottom lines. Expelled students are not worth money to them. I think most schools would have a hard time putting together classes without Redwing's catalog-ordering directly from publishers would be quite a headache for them. Even the threat of doing this may make them take a tougher stance. If the publishers/distributors were to get together and demand that schools have such a policy if they want to order, it could make a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Not sure what you're talking about, but reproduction of copyrighted material for purposes of private research is both legal and legitimate. We used to do that at the Institute for Philosophical Studies all the time, mainly when books were rare or out or print. You can't bootleg them. You can't sell copies, but you can reproduce them. That's well established. - " d_munez " <d_munez Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:40 PM Re: Piracy > In the case of our profession, the pressure needs to be put on the > schools. In most major universities, you can now be expelled for storing > illegally obtained material. It seems that most of this activity, in the > US at least, is happening in schools where students " go in together " and > copy or scan. I doubt that any CM school that has a policy for expelling > students who steal and share pirated materials with classmates (I hope I'm > wrong). My (limited) experience with schools in the US is that they put up > with a lot from students to save their bottom lines. Expelled students are > not worth money to them. > > I think most schools would have a hard time putting together classes > without Redwing's catalog-ordering directly from publishers would be quite > a headache for them. Even the threat of doing this may make them take a > tougher stance. If the publishers/distributors were to get together and > demand that schools have such a policy if they want to order, it could > make a big difference. > > > > > > --- > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a > practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I'll let others add to this but much of this was in response to an operation that started a few years ago where every TCM book and many Western books were available on CD. Students were showing up to class with " bootlegged " photocopied facsimiles of the major texts. I haven't seen it lately but apparently many are still using the CD's in lieu of buying the books. Doug , " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum wrote: > > Not sure what you're talking about, but reproduction of copyrighted material > for purposes of private research is both legal and legitimate. We used to > do that at the Institute for Philosophical Studies all the time, mainly when > books were rare or out or print. > You can't bootleg them. You can't sell copies, but you can reproduce them. > That's well established. > > > > - > " d_munez " <d_munez > > Wednesday, September 02, 2009 7:40 PM > Re: Piracy > > > > In the case of our profession, the pressure needs to be put on the > > schools. In most major universities, you can now be expelled for storing > > illegally obtained material. It seems that most of this activity, in the > > US at least, is happening in schools where students " go in together " and > > copy or scan. I doubt that any CM school that has a policy for expelling > > students who steal and share pirated materials with classmates (I hope I'm > > wrong). My (limited) experience with schools in the US is that they put up > > with a lot from students to save their bottom lines. Expelled students are > > not worth money to them. > > > > I think most schools would have a hard time putting together classes > > without Redwing's catalog-ordering directly from publishers would be quite > > a headache for them. Even the threat of doing this may make them take a > > tougher stance. If the publishers/distributors were to get together and > > demand that schools have such a policy if they want to order, it could > > make a big difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a > > practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 , " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum wrote: > > Not sure what you're talking about, but reproduction of copyrighted material > for purposes of private research is both legal and legitimate. We used to > do that at the Institute for Philosophical Studies all the time, mainly when > books were rare or out or print. > You can't bootleg them. You can't sell copies, but you can reproduce them. > That's well established. What you have said is simply not true, according to US law. There are very specific guideline about what can be copied. I'm glad you posted this-it shows that we have to go much further in educating people about fair use of copyrighted material. I don't know of any way that the law can be interpreted to allow reproduction of books beyond one chapter, and that one chapter even has very specific conditions. What *most* educational institutions do when a book is out of print or rare is to put the book on library reserve for students to use-they can't copy it, but they can use it in the library whenever they want. Even copying rare or out of print books is illegal if the copyright is still valid. Here is the web page Stanford uses to instruct its teachers: http://tinyurl.com/l9gds4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Many students still don't know about Redwing books. Their catalog should be in the hands of every TCM student. Does Redwing books give any discounts to TCM students? Most students buy their books directly from their school and from amazon.com I also support the ChineseMedicineDatabase http://Chinese Medicine/ The more we support translators and authors, the more powerful our medicine will be. With this publisher in the Ukraine, this seems similar to what's happening in the mp3 industry from Russia, where you can download mp3s at ridiculously inexpensive prices... It is supposedly legal, but under scrutiny. Here is an online blog user's comments " I've been looking into the website " mp3panda.com " . They sell mp3's for rather low prices. The site's " about " page says that this is because of Russian copyright law, which allows them to sell music as long as they pay royalties, even if they don't have an agreement with the labels. Google seems to confirm this. Is this really legal? " K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 If anyone wants to know what you can and cannot do legally in terms of copyright for legitimate scholarly purposes, go to the Library of Congress website. Then go to the section on " Copyright, " and then search for " Fair Use. " The " doctrine of fair use " is fairly explicit about what you can use, how you can use it, and how much of a work you can reproduce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Copyright is for 100 years, regardless of whether the book is in print or not. Then it enters the public domain and anyone can do anything they want with the material. The assumption is that, after 100 years, the author is long dead as are probably their immediate heirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 That information is for teachers in educational institutions. That is a different case entirely. What I stated is factually the case. Reproduction of copyrighted material for purposes of PRIVATE research is both legal and legitimate. You cannot bootleg them for money. But you can reproduce copies for your own personal use. Teaching in a classroom environment is a completely different scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Not sure what the number of years is. I thought it was around 75 or something like that. However, there are other factors in play. For instance, if I translate the Yellow Emperor's Classic, I don't have copy rights of the Yellow Emperor's Classic, just my translation of it. There is also the " public display " factor. You can reproduce copies of your own music for your own use. However, if you want to play it publicly, say on the radio or in a tavern or a public business like that, you have to pay copyright. This is what a school or university environment is. You cannot just reproduce works wholesale in that environment. It is a totally different situation. I'll ask Regine if you want. She got her law degree from Ann Arbor. #4 in the country! Top third of her class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 From Wikipedia: " Works created in or after 1978 are extended copyright protection for a term defined in 17 U.S.C. § 302. With the passage of the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, these works are granted copyright protection for a term ending 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was a work for hire (e.g., those created by a corporation) then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter. " , " pemachophel2001 " <bob wrote: > > Copyright is for 100 years, regardless of whether the book is in print or not. Then it enters the public domain and anyone can do anything they want with the material. The assumption is that, after 100 years, the author is long dead as are probably their immediate heirs. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 If I'm not mistaken, the corporate rule is known as the " mickey Mouse rule " to allow Disney more years of control of their rodent. I think you guys are comparing apples and oranges here. Or Dang shen and Dan shen... anyway, this thread started because there was clear mass theft of books by selling CDs of current books, in large quantities. Fair use of material copying small quantities or for local, educational, parody, quoting, review etc... this is sometimes murky but the big difference is that fair use cannot, among other things, and probably most importantly, impinge on the commercial interests of the copyright holder. For example, I can only make copies of the Journal of articles of those that are available free on their website. And nowadays I just point students to the web site. But I cannot make a class book, to distribute (even for cost or free) out of a bunch of articles just because I own the JCM CD because the student has a clear ability to buy the Cd. A person who has access to a library can make one copy of a few pages, for personal use of a book is out of print or otherwise not available for sale. The person cannot go into a bookstore and copy out of books because s/he is obviously trying to avoid buying the them. Doug , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > From Wikipedia: > > " Works created in or after 1978 are extended copyright protection for a term defined in 17 U.S.C. § 302. With the passage of the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, these works are granted copyright protection for a term ending 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was a work for hire (e.g., those created by a corporation) then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter. " > > > > > , " pemachophel2001 " <bob@> wrote: > > > > Copyright is for 100 years, regardless of whether the book is in print or not. Then it enters the public domain and anyone can do anything they want with the material. The assumption is that, after 100 years, the author is long dead as are probably their immediate heirs. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 Yeah, you're correct about this. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were talking about. Bob , " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum wrote: > > That information is for teachers in educational institutions. That is a > different case entirely. What I stated is factually the case. Reproduction > of copyrighted material for purposes of PRIVATE research is both legal and > legitimate. You cannot bootleg them for money. But you can reproduce > copies for your own personal use. > Teaching in a classroom environment is a completely different scenario. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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