Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 I just thought some might be interested to know that the herb lei gong teng is being written up at Dr. Andrew Weil's website as an herb recently shown to be useful for rheumatoid arthritis. This herb in the MM3 is in the chapter of Obsolete Substances, Pg. 1049, indicating it is highly toxic. There are preparation recommendations to minimize toxicity. Anyone have any experience with this? Here is the paragraph: Chinese Herb Improves Rheumatoid Arthritis Symptoms Extracts of a Chinese herb with a tongue-twister of a name, Tripterygium wilfordii Hook F (TwHF, for short) may be a useful treatment for rheumatoid arthritis (RA). Also known as lei gong teng or thunder god vine, the herb was tested in 121 RA patients for 24 weeks against the drug sulfasalazine by researchers at the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases. The study was published in the August 18, 2009 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine. The investigators randomly assigned patients participating in the study to take TwHF root three times a day or one gram of the anti-inflammatory drug sulfasalazine twice a day. Not all the patients stayed with the study for the entire 24 weeks, but among those who completed the course of treatment the researchers reported that 67 percent taking TwHF improved, compared to only 36 percent of those who received sulfasalazine. Side effects were similar in both groups. Based on their findings the researchers concluded that the rapid improvement in joint symptoms seen in the TwHF group may make the extract an attractive and affordable alternative to the anti- inflammatory drugs currently used to treat RA. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 I have seen it used quite a bit in China, however I do not think it is legal in the US (or Europe), or is it? It is toxic and one MUST be careful. Usually short-term use is best, especially without 'real' expertise. Is Dr. Weil suggesting people just start taking it? - On Behalf Of A. Brameier Saturday, September 05, 2009 9:08 AM Lei gong teng I just thought some might be interested to know that the herb lei gong teng is being written up at Dr. Andrew Weil's website as an herb recently shown to be useful for rheumatoid arthritis. This herb in the MM3 is in the chapter of Obsolete Substances, Pg. 1049, indicating it is highly toxic. There are preparation recommendations to minimize toxicity. Anyone have any experience with this? Here is the paragraph: Chinese Herb Improves Rheumatoid Arthritis Symptoms Extracts of a Chinese herb with a tongue-twister of a name, Tripterygium wilfordii Hook F (TwHF, for short) may be a useful treatment for rheumatoid arthritis (RA). Also known as lei gong teng or thunder god vine, the herb was tested in 121 RA patients for 24 weeks against the drug sulfasalazine by researchers at the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases. The study was published in the August 18, 2009 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine. The investigators randomly assigned patients participating in the study to take TwHF root three times a day or one gram of the anti-inflammatory drug sulfasalazine twice a day. Not all the patients stayed with the study for the entire 24 weeks, but among those who completed the course of treatment the researchers reported that 67 percent taking TwHF improved, compared to only 36 percent of those who received sulfasalazine. Side effects were similar in both groups. Based on their findings the researchers concluded that the rapid improvement in joint symptoms seen in the TwHF group may make the extract an attractive and affordable alternative to the anti- inflammatory drugs currently used to treat RA. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 This herb shows up a lot in protocols for auto-immune diseases such as lupus. I looked into getting some from one of my extract sources and they said that it was simply too toxic to take the chance on selling from their perspective. I don't know if it is on any FDA banned-substances list, but the distributor simply wouldn't even consider it because of its toxicity. > I just thought some might be interested to know that the herb lei gong > teng is being written up at Dr. Andrew Weil's website as an herb > recently shown to be useful for rheumatoid arthritis. > This herb in the MM3 is in the chapter of Obsolete Substances, Pg. > 1049, indicating it is highly toxic. There are preparation > recommendations to minimize toxicity. > Anyone have any experience with this? > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 Hi Jason, The bit that I copied and pasted in the email below is all that appeared. It was in the regular e-newsletter he sends out, which links to his website. So I guess he is just citing some research that he found. Thought it might be a bit irresponsible if there are these dangers involved, which seem considerable as noted in the MM3 entry on it. After all, isn't it just this sort of posting by a " reputable " doctor that motivates people to seek stuff out and start trying it? There isn't even the stock warning 'Check with your doctor before blah blah blah...' When it is used in China, is it usually in a formula? Like in a patent? ann On Sep 5, 2009, at 12:03 PM, wrote: > I have seen it used quite a bit in China, however I do not think it > is legal > in the US (or Europe), or is it? It is toxic and one MUST be careful. > Usually short-term use is best, especially without 'real' expertise. > Is Dr. > Weil suggesting people just start taking it? > > - > > > On Behalf Of A. Brameier > Saturday, September 05, 2009 9:08 AM > > Lei gong teng > > I just thought some might be interested to know that the herb lei gong > teng is being written up at Dr. Andrew Weil's website as an herb > recently shown to be useful for rheumatoid arthritis. > This herb in the MM3 is in the chapter of Obsolete Substances, Pg. > 1049, indicating it is highly toxic. There are preparation > recommendations to minimize toxicity. > Anyone have any experience with this? > > Here is the paragraph: > Chinese Herb Improves Rheumatoid Arthritis Symptoms > Extracts of a Chinese herb with a tongue-twister of a name, > Tripterygium wilfordii Hook F (TwHF, for short) may be a useful > treatment for rheumatoid arthritis (RA). Also known as lei gong teng > or thunder god vine, the herb was tested in 121 RA patients for 24 > weeks against the drug sulfasalazine by researchers at the National > Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases. The > study was published in the August 18, 2009 issue of the Annals of > Internal Medicine. The investigators randomly assigned patients > participating in the study to take TwHF root three times a day or one > gram of the anti-inflammatory drug sulfasalazine twice a day. Not all > the patients stayed with the study for the entire 24 weeks, but among > those who completed the course of treatment the researchers reported > that 67 percent taking TwHF improved, compared to only 36 percent of > those who received sulfasalazine. Side effects were similar in both > groups. Based on their findings the researchers concluded that the > rapid improvement in joint symptoms seen in the TwHF group may make > the extract an attractive and affordable alternative to the anti- > inflammatory drugs currently used to treat RA. > > Ann > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 Ann, I personally have only seen it used by doctors in a formula, but I know there were some people here in the US that were experimenting with it in a single extract form. I think this was from Japan, and although it was supposedly safer, I was a little leery to try it myself. I assume you can buy similar products in China as well, b/c it is well known to help many conditions. I think using it in a formula is key b/c you can balance it out with the other herbs. - On Behalf Of A. Brameier Saturday, September 05, 2009 7:08 PM Re: Lei gong teng Hi Jason, The bit that I copied and pasted in the email below is all that appeared. It was in the regular e-newsletter he sends out, which links to his website. So I guess he is just citing some research that he found. Thought it might be a bit irresponsible if there are these dangers involved, which seem considerable as noted in the MM3 entry on it. After all, isn't it just this sort of posting by a " reputable " doctor that motivates people to seek stuff out and start trying it? There isn't even the stock warning 'Check with your doctor before blah blah blah...' When it is used in China, is it usually in a formula? Like in a patent? ann _ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 well, doesn't look like I'll be using it any time soon... but being curious.... http://www.news-medical.net/news/2007/04/30/24348.aspx Chinese herb Lei Gong Teng stops formation of cysts in polycystic kidney disease in lab ---wonderful if true. and from John Chen: http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/jan/01chen.html LGT: A Blessing or a Time Bomb? --- " qi bu si " !!??? Really? Perhaps Dr. Chen should contact Dr. Weil. and http://chinesemedicinenews.com/2007/02/17/26/ .... about limiting tumor growth... and mechanism. and so on... Thanks for chiming in, Jason. Let me know if you ever decide to use it... haha.. ann On Sep 5, 2009, at 10:29 PM, wrote: > Ann, > > I personally have only seen it used by doctors in a formula, but I > know > there were some people here in the US that were experimenting with > it in a > single extract form. I think this was from Japan, and although it was > supposedly safer, I was a little leery to try it myself. I assume > you can > buy similar products in China as well, b/c it is well known to help > many > conditions. I think using it in a formula is key b/c you can balance > it out > with the other herbs. > > - > > > On Behalf Of A. Brameier > Saturday, September 05, 2009 7:08 PM > > Re: Lei gong teng > > Hi Jason, > The bit that I copied and pasted in the email below is all that > appeared. It was in the regular e-newsletter he sends out, which links > to his website. So I guess he is just citing some research that he > found. Thought it might be a bit irresponsible if there are these > dangers involved, which seem considerable as noted in the MM3 entry on > it. After all, isn't it just this sort of posting by a " reputable " > doctor that motivates people to seek stuff out and start trying it? > There isn't even the stock warning 'Check with your doctor before blah > blah blah...' > > When it is used in China, is it usually in a formula? Like in a > patent? > > ann > > _ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 Although I have never used Lei Gong Teng (not allowed in Canada) my teacher Mazin Al Khafaji uses it quite frequently in the UK. He warns against indiscriminate use though, as it is a very powerful herb. Firstly, Mazin always tests liver enzyme counts on a regular basis to ensure safety. He also has regular white blood cell panels done, as Lei Gong Teng works in similar ways to Methatrexate by suppressing the immune system (hence why it is good for auto-immune disorders). If liver enzymes go up too high and/ or the white blood cell count drops too low, then the patient is taken off of the herb. Some of things I have seen Mazin discuss the use of Lei Gong Teng for is in the treatment of Rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, Lupus, ankylosis spondylitis, auto-immune kidney disease, and severe forms of plaque psoriasis. He always has the patient take it with a full herbal formula, never alone from what I can determine. Mazin has said that by using lei gong teng results appear much quicker. This is one of the only herbs that Mazin will actually use the concentrated form of, as he feels it is easier to control dose and toxicity, all his other herbs are used in the raw form. Trevor , " A. Brameier " <snakeoil.works wrote: > > well, doesn't look like I'll be using it any time soon... but being > curious.... > > http://www.news-medical.net/news/2007/04/30/24348.aspx > Chinese herb Lei Gong Teng stops formation of cysts in polycystic > kidney disease in lab > ---wonderful if true. > > and from John Chen: > http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/jan/01chen.html > LGT: A Blessing or a Time Bomb? --- " qi bu si " !!??? Really? Perhaps > Dr. Chen should contact Dr. Weil. > > and > http://chinesemedicinenews.com/2007/02/17/26/ > ... about limiting tumor growth... and mechanism. > > and so on... > > Thanks for chiming in, Jason. Let me know if you ever decide to use > it... haha.. > ann > > > On Sep 5, 2009, at 10:29 PM, wrote: > > > Ann, > > > > I personally have only seen it used by doctors in a formula, but I > > know > > there were some people here in the US that were experimenting with > > it in a > > single extract form. I think this was from Japan, and although it was > > supposedly safer, I was a little leery to try it myself. I assume > > you can > > buy similar products in China as well, b/c it is well known to help > > many > > conditions. I think using it in a formula is key b/c you can balance > > it out > > with the other herbs. > > > > - > > > > > > On Behalf Of A. Brameier > > Saturday, September 05, 2009 7:08 PM > > > > Re: Lei gong teng > > > > Hi Jason, > > The bit that I copied and pasted in the email below is all that > > appeared. It was in the regular e-newsletter he sends out, which links > > to his website. So I guess he is just citing some research that he > > found. Thought it might be a bit irresponsible if there are these > > dangers involved, which seem considerable as noted in the MM3 entry on > > it. After all, isn't it just this sort of posting by a " reputable " > > doctor that motivates people to seek stuff out and start trying it? > > There isn't even the stock warning 'Check with your doctor before blah > > blah blah...' > > > > When it is used in China, is it usually in a formula? Like in a > > patent? > > > > ann > > > > _ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2009 Report Share Posted September 6, 2009 Trevor, What you write about use of lei gong teng agrees with what I got from Dr. Al Khafaji seminar in Rothenburg. He does not give out any information about sources, because of its toxicity. In the hands of an inexperienced herbalist, it could be dangerous. Yes, it has to be managed and monitored carefully. Andrew Weill's broadcasting about lei gong tang worries me. Makes me look ignorant because I won't risk my patients' lives! Mazin Al Khafaji is presenting his autoimmune seminar in the northwest in the near future. Frances Gander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 For what it's worth, here is the full text of the Lei Gong Teng research that Weil is apparently referencing. http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/151/4/229 This study is incredibly weak. Patients were allowed to continue prednisone or reduce dosage of the trial or comparison drug up to 50%. Lots of the patients dropped out. There is conflict of interest in the study funding. This is a drug-type, not crude extract, of Lei Gong Teng being used, but the details of its preparation are conspicuously missing from the monograph. It astounds me that this type of nonsense is continuously being held up as " evidence based research " that we are supposed to aspire to. And yet, rest assured, this will lead to a patent-protected drug and we will be told that our crude formulations can not be trusted because we haven't conducted " scientific research " . I am not trying to be adversarial against western medicine. I don't feel this calibre of research would be respected by a critical-thinking M.D. either. I've done some work (about 20 years ago - ouch!) as a medical editor/ghostwriter for " peer reviewed journals " and I really wish I could work off some of my bad karma for that. In short, I feel the methodology of TCM is more valid than the contrivances of most western research protocols.. We may have a lot to learn, but we also have a lot to offer in terms of improving study design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 There have been several reviews of research showing that the overall quality of herbal studies are higher than those of pharmaceuticals. I do not have the citations in front of me, but they were interesting. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Sep 7, 2009, at 11:35 AM, wrote: > For what it's worth, here is the full text of the Lei Gong Teng > research that Weil is apparently referencing. > > http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/151/4/229 > > This study is incredibly weak. Patients were allowed to continue > prednisone or reduce dosage of the trial or comparison drug up to > 50%. Lots of the patients dropped out. There is conflict of > interest in the study funding. This is a drug-type, not crude > extract, of Lei Gong Teng being used, but the details of its > preparation are conspicuously missing from the monograph. > > It astounds me that this type of nonsense is continuously being > held up as " evidence based research " that we are supposed to aspire > to. > > And yet, rest assured, this will lead to a patent-protected drug > and we will be told that our crude formulations can not be trusted > because we haven't conducted " scientific research " . > > I am not trying to be adversarial against western medicine. I > don't feel this calibre of research would be respected by a > critical-thinking M.D. either. > > I've done some work (about 20 years ago - ouch!) as a medical > editor/ghostwriter for " peer reviewed journals " and I really wish I > could work off some of my bad karma for that. > > In short, I feel the methodology of TCM is more valid than the > contrivances of most western research protocols.. We may have a > lot to learn, but we also have a lot to offer in terms of improving > study design. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Fascinating, Gena, thanks for finding this. And your comments are right on the mark -- as are many of those who have commented on it on cha. Here is the only page I could find on the Weil website that contains a link that may allow for comment, which may reach him, even assuming that he wrote the piece himself: http://www.drweil.com/drw/ecs/contact_us/index.html It appeared in the newsletter sent out on Aug 27. It's one thing for these popularizers of alt med to write about herbs that have a substantial history of use, but to try to appear in the forefront of new discoveries by citing little known research of substances of questionable safety is slipshod and phony - and I don't know which comes first. So perhaps those with knowledge of this plant and/or experience in research methods and analysis might enter a complaint at the page above. I don't mean to be crabby (it seems to be going around this week), but this hurts us all in the CM field. Gena, the bulk of your commentary below would even be appropriate for transplanting to his comment page, I think - with a flagging of the toxicity issues, of course. He also has a " Forum " section, but not sure how we could get something started on that. Thanks again. Sheesh! Ann On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:35 PM, wrote: > For what it's worth, here is the full text of the Lei Gong Teng > research that Weil is apparently referencing. > > http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/151/4/229 > > This study is incredibly weak. Patients were allowed to continue > prednisone or reduce dosage of the trial or comparison drug up to > 50%. Lots of the patients dropped out. There is conflict of > interest in the study funding. This is a drug-type, not crude > extract, of Lei Gong Teng being used, but the details of its > preparation are conspicuously missing from the monograph. > > It astounds me that this type of nonsense is continuously being held > up as " evidence based research " that we are supposed to aspire to. > > And yet, rest assured, this will lead to a patent-protected drug and > we will be told that our crude formulations can not be trusted > because we haven't conducted " scientific research " . > > I am not trying to be adversarial against western medicine. I don't > feel this calibre of research would be respected by a critical- > thinking M.D. either. > > I've done some work (about 20 years ago - ouch!) as a medical editor/ > ghostwriter for " peer reviewed journals " and I really wish I could > work off some of my bad karma for that. > > In short, I feel the methodology of TCM is more valid than the > contrivances of most western research protocols.. We may have a lot > to learn, but we also have a lot to offer in terms of improving > study design. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 , wrote: > This is a drug-type, not crude extract, of Lei Gong Teng being used, but the details of its preparation are conspicuously missing from the monograph. Lei Gong Teng is, by all accounts, a highly effective medicinal for the treatment of RA. However, as others have mentioned, it poses a risk of severe side-effects and potential toxicity. It suppresses the immune system and requires monitoring of liver and kidney function, so it is only suitable for use in integrative settings and it should only be used in extracts that have precise, known levels of constituents. I agree that it is important for studies to state the details of preparations. Is it a full-spectrum, water-based extract, a fractional isolate, an ethanol extract? What species of plant was used and how was it authenticated (traditional quality discernment by a qualified expert, TLC, HPLC, etc)? What growing region did the herbs used in the study come from? All of these factors are extremely important for a rigorous study of herbal medicine products. That said, Lei Gong Teng is exactly the type of herb that may be more useful as a " drug " product, because it requires relatively precise dosing, consistent and transparently stated levels of active constituents, and lab testing of the patient to monitor toxicity. Think about something like datura (yang jin hua). Datura is one of the oldest medicines in the world, it has well-characterized pharmacological effects, but its active constituents are toxic and highly variable in the plant itself. Its constituents, such as atropine and scopolamine, have been used extensively in medicine and they are much safer than the whole herb because their dosage can be precisely determined. The whole herb should still be available for use, of course, but very few educated practitioners would prefer to use the crude herb instead of an extract with consistent constituent levels. I'm not trying to say that Lei Gong Teng should be made into a drug and denied access to herbalists. But I think that highly toxic items like Lei Gong Teng and Yang Jin Hua may offer significant benefit to humanity as drugs. Plants and drugs are intimately related. There are many examples where a pure drug fails to perform as well as the whole herb (ginseng is a good example). But other times, the pure drug may be more useful than the whole herb (as in the case of datura). Extreme feelings about natural vs. synthetic or " herb vs. drug " (whatever that means) don't really serve us well in the field of medicine. Medicine is about helping people, it is not about dogma. And let's face it, our suppliers rarely tell us the concentration ratio of simple things like mint (bo he) in the products that we use, how can we use dose-dependent, highly toxic substances like Lei Gong Teng or Yang Jin Hua without knowing the potency of the extracts on the market? Yes, I'd like to see more transparency in the herbal authentication and extraction information in studies, but I'd also like to see more transparency in the products we use in TCM. Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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