Guest guest Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Here on CHA, we recently discussed the processing of Fu Zi. Heiner Fruehauf and others made significant contributions to the discussion, and Heiner offered the experience of his Sichuan-based teachers from the " Huo Shen Pai " (Five God School). The general gist of the discussion revolved around the fact that the Jiangyou region in Sichuan is known for being the daodi (authentic) production region for premium Fu Zi. We also explored questions regarding the efficacy and comparative toxicity of Fu Zi products. I had the opportunity to pursue this topic a bit further today, because I had the good fortune to have lunch in Hong Kong today with my teacher Dr. Zhao Zhong-Zhen and his team of pharmacy experts. Dr. Zhao is one of the world's most prominent authorities on herbal medicine authentication, and he works with a team of elite experts from throughout China and Hong Kong. Several experts from Sichuan were present at our lunch meeting, so I got to pose the Fu Zi question to some of the best authorities that I could ever hope for. The general consensus was consistent with Heiner's position that Jiangyou Fu Zi is the daodi production area that produces the finest Fu Zi product. I learned that while Fu Zi processing is indeed strictly regulated, China currently lacks a harmonized national standard for its processing. Apparently, each region has their own processing techniques, and the precise processing techniques of each region are cloaked in secrecy. The Jiangyou processing method and the Jiangyou product itself are indeed regarded as the best, and Dr. Eric Guo-Ping explained that the general consensus within the Huo Shen Pai is that Jiangyou Fu Zi has the best clinical effect and the least toxicity. Another expert mentioned that practitioners in the Huo Shen Pai also often combined their high dosages of Fu Zi with very prolonged decoction times and the use of high doses of Gan Cao (60g) to minimize toxicity. Still another Sichuan pharmacist commented on the fact that Fu Zi is consumed at least several times per year by healthy people in many regions of Sichuan, and this method of use is generally regarded as being relatively benign within the local culture. The round table largely agreed that the influence of climate was likely a factor, and they pointed to various common examples wherein a given local population exhibits a different response to certain substances than the population of other regions. For example, some regions use chili in massive doses yet those unaccustomed to chili get extreme reactions when using it. The climate of Sichuan is damp so they use Sichuan peppercorns (hua jiao) in addition to chili, and they favor large quantities of spicy and warming foods. By contrast, the people of Hong Kong are often afraid of heat and thus they use lots of cooling teas, xi yang shen, and moistening substances like pear and chuan bei mu. Hong Kong people fear Ren Shen while Koreans use it regularly. Apparently even Liu Wei Di Huang Wan has a reputation for causing nosebleeds and side-effects in Japan. In other words, regional preferences vary dramatically, and this could help to explain why Heiner reports superior results with the Huo Shen Pai theory in Portland while practitioners in other regions have had less profound results with it. Finally, another expert reported that the main issue of concern with Fu Zi production relates to the fact that the freshly harvested root tends to rot very quickly, within a few days after harvest. Thus, it must be dried rapidly, and one method that is used to hasten its drying it to use a particular salt preparation, which is sometimes done in excessive quantities. Daniel Atschuler's (sp?) translated paper referenced the excessive use of magnesium chloride by some producers, if my memory serves correctly. The salt preparation that today's expert was referencing was explained to me as follows (I don't know all the chemical names in Chinese, so I only understand the fundamental gist): Apparently each region in China had important salt sources, and in fact the entire ancient society used the locations of salt (for food) and metals (for weapons) as pinnacle areas when it came to establishing control and power in feudal regions. Sichuan was one area where particular salt mines were well-established, and the bitter by-products created by separating the pure dietary salt from the other minerals and salts are the product that are overused to hasten the drying of Fu Zi by those groups that process it in a less-than-ideal way. Anyway, I learned something today from the discussion, so I thought I'd share it with the group. Best wishes, Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 This is a fascinating report, Eric. Thank you so much for making the time for this in your busy China schedule, and for your devotion to uncovering the facts about the medicinal substances we rely on in the West (practicing Chinese herbal medicine). I find it very interesting that different medicinals provoke different reactions in different regions of a country, and that different processing methods have evolved over time. . On Sep 17, 2009, at 7:16 AM, smilinglotus wrote: > Here on CHA, we recently discussed the processing of Fu Zi. Heiner > Fruehauf and others made significant contributions to the > discussion, and Heiner offered the experience of his Sichuan-based > teachers from the " Huo Shen Pai " (Five God School). The general gist > of the discussion revolved around the fact that the Jiangyou region > in Sichuan is known for being the daodi (authentic) production > region for premium Fu Zi. We also explored questions regarding the > efficacy and comparative toxicity of Fu Zi products. > > I had the opportunity to pursue this topic a bit further today, > because I had the good fortune to have lunch in Hong Kong today with > my teacher Dr. Zhao Zhong-Zhen and his team of pharmacy experts. Dr. > Zhao is one of the world's most prominent authorities on herbal > medicine authentication, and he works with a team of elite experts > from throughout China and Hong Kong. Several experts from Sichuan > were present at our lunch meeting, so I got to pose the Fu Zi > question to some of the best authorities that I could ever hope for. > > The general consensus was consistent with Heiner's position that > Jiangyou Fu Zi is the daodi production area that produces the finest > Fu Zi product. I learned that while Fu Zi processing is indeed > strictly regulated, China currently lacks a harmonized national > standard for its processing. Apparently, each region has their own > processing techniques, and the precise processing techniques of each > region are cloaked in secrecy. The Jiangyou processing method and > the Jiangyou product itself are indeed regarded as the best, and Dr. > Eric Guo-Ping explained that the general consensus within the Huo > Shen Pai is that Jiangyou Fu Zi has the best clinical effect and the > least toxicity. > > Another expert mentioned that practitioners in the Huo Shen Pai also > often combined their high dosages of Fu Zi with very prolonged > decoction times and the use of high doses of Gan Cao (60g) to > minimize toxicity. > > Still another Sichuan pharmacist commented on the fact that Fu Zi is > consumed at least several times per year by healthy people in many > regions of Sichuan, and this method of use is generally regarded as > being relatively benign within the local culture. The round table > largely agreed that the influence of climate was likely a factor, > and they pointed to various common examples wherein a given local > population exhibits a different response to certain substances than > the population of other regions. For example, some regions use chili > in massive doses yet those unaccustomed to chili get extreme > reactions when using it. The climate of Sichuan is damp so they use > Sichuan peppercorns (hua jiao) in addition to chili, and they favor > large quantities of spicy and warming foods. By contrast, the people > of Hong Kong are often afraid of heat and thus they use lots of > cooling teas, xi yang shen, and moistening substances like pear and > chuan bei mu. Hong Kong people fear Ren Shen while Koreans use it > regularly. Apparently even Liu Wei Di Huang Wan has a reputation for > causing nosebleeds and side-effects in Japan. In other words, > regional preferences vary dramatically, and this could help to > explain why Heiner reports superior results with the Huo Shen Pai > theory in Portland while practitioners in other regions have had > less profound results with it. > > Finally, another expert reported that the main issue of concern with > Fu Zi production relates to the fact that the freshly harvested root > tends to rot very quickly, within a few days after harvest. Thus, it > must be dried rapidly, and one method that is used to hasten its > drying it to use a particular salt preparation, which is sometimes > done in excessive quantities. Daniel Atschuler's (sp?) translated > paper referenced the excessive use of magnesium chloride by some > producers, if my memory serves correctly. The salt preparation that > today's expert was referencing was explained to me as follows (I > don't know all the chemical names in Chinese, so I only understand > the fundamental gist): Apparently each region in China had important > salt sources, and in fact the entire ancient society used the > locations of salt (for food) and metals (for weapons) as pinnacle > areas when it came to establishing control and power in feudal > regions. Sichuan was one area where particular salt mines were well- > established, and the bitter by-products created by separating the > pure dietary salt from the other minerals and salts are the product > that are overused to hasten the drying of Fu Zi by those groups that > process it in a less-than-ideal way. > > Anyway, I learned something today from the discussion, so I thought > I'd share it with the group. > > Best wishes, > Eric Brand > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Great report Eric. I have seen an example of regional differences causing symptoms here in the U.S. Often when people move from a dry climate like Boulder or Santa Fe to a damp climate like Santa Cruz, their skin breaks out and gets oily. Similarly when people move in the other direction, they complain about dry peeling skin. Sometimes this can last for a few weeks, even a few months in some cases. If a person's internal climate can be this variable in different regions, it makes sense that they could possibly respond to herbs differently. - Bill Schoenbart , " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus wrote: > > Here on CHA, we recently discussed the processing of Fu Zi. Heiner Fruehauf and others made significant contributions to the discussion, and Heiner offered the experience of his Sichuan-based teachers from the " Huo Shen Pai " (Five God School). The general gist of the discussion revolved around the fact that the Jiangyou region in Sichuan is known for being the daodi (authentic) production region for premium Fu Zi. We also explored questions regarding the efficacy and comparative toxicity of Fu Zi products. > > I had the opportunity to pursue this topic a bit further today, because I had the good fortune to have lunch in Hong Kong today with my teacher Dr. Zhao Zhong-Zhen and his team of pharmacy experts. Dr. Zhao is one of the world's most prominent authorities on herbal medicine authentication, and he works with a team of elite experts from throughout China and Hong Kong. Several experts from Sichuan were present at our lunch meeting, so I got to pose the Fu Zi question to some of the best authorities that I could ever hope for. > > The general consensus was consistent with Heiner's position that Jiangyou Fu Zi is the daodi production area that produces the finest Fu Zi product. I learned that while Fu Zi processing is indeed strictly regulated, China currently lacks a harmonized national standard for its processing. Apparently, each region has their own processing techniques, and the precise processing techniques of each region are cloaked in secrecy. The Jiangyou processing method and the Jiangyou product itself are indeed regarded as the best, and Dr. Eric Guo-Ping explained that the general consensus within the Huo Shen Pai is that Jiangyou Fu Zi has the best clinical effect and the least toxicity. > > Another expert mentioned that practitioners in the Huo Shen Pai also often combined their high dosages of Fu Zi with very prolonged decoction times and the use of high doses of Gan Cao (60g) to minimize toxicity. > > Still another Sichuan pharmacist commented on the fact that Fu Zi is consumed at least several times per year by healthy people in many regions of Sichuan, and this method of use is generally regarded as being relatively benign within the local culture. The round table largely agreed that the influence of climate was likely a factor, and they pointed to various common examples wherein a given local population exhibits a different response to certain substances than the population of other regions. For example, some regions use chili in massive doses yet those unaccustomed to chili get extreme reactions when using it. The climate of Sichuan is damp so they use Sichuan peppercorns (hua jiao) in addition to chili, and they favor large quantities of spicy and warming foods. By contrast, the people of Hong Kong are often afraid of heat and thus they use lots of cooling teas, xi yang shen, and moistening substances like pear and chuan bei mu. Hong Kong people fear Ren Shen while Koreans use it regularly. Apparently even Liu Wei Di Huang Wan has a reputation for causing nosebleeds and side-effects in Japan. In other words, regional preferences vary dramatically, and this could help to explain why Heiner reports superior results with the Huo Shen Pai theory in Portland while practitioners in other regions have had less profound results with it. > > Finally, another expert reported that the main issue of concern with Fu Zi production relates to the fact that the freshly harvested root tends to rot very quickly, within a few days after harvest. Thus, it must be dried rapidly, and one method that is used to hasten its drying it to use a particular salt preparation, which is sometimes done in excessive quantities. Daniel Atschuler's (sp?) translated paper referenced the excessive use of magnesium chloride by some producers, if my memory serves correctly. The salt preparation that today's expert was referencing was explained to me as follows (I don't know all the chemical names in Chinese, so I only understand the fundamental gist): Apparently each region in China had important salt sources, and in fact the entire ancient society used the locations of salt (for food) and metals (for weapons) as pinnacle areas when it came to establishing control and power in feudal regions. Sichuan was one area where particular salt mines were well-established, and the bitter by-products created by separating the pure dietary salt from the other minerals and salts are the product that are overused to hasten the drying of Fu Zi by those groups that process it in a less-than-ideal way. > > Anyway, I learned something today from the discussion, so I thought I'd share it with the group. > > Best wishes, > Eric Brand > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Thanks Eric, much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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