Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 I was wondering how Clomid would be described in Chinese Terms? I recently got two new patients who are on it and both report feeling warmer, one is getting mild hot flashes. So could one describe this drug as a Yang Tonic or at least hot in nature? Also, to folks feel it's better to have the patient stop Clomid & do herbs or keep taking it? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Hi Steve, You are correct to say that Chlomid seems hot in nature. Whether it is a yang tonic per say, I would hesitate to agree. Chlomid's action is to block estrogen and so it's main side effects are reduced mucus production, a thinner endometrial lining, as well as the hot flushes, thirst, irritability, and aggravation of skin diseases like eczema (my own clinical observation). So all signs of excess heat. There has been studies done showing a better overall effect when CHlomid is used with chinese herbs. One in particular was done with Wen Jing Tang. My basic strategy is to just use acupuncture to support if it is their first time using chlomid. This usually makes their western doctor happy as well. Then if they do not get good results I add in herbal treatment, which is based purely on the pattern I see manifesting. For example I treated a PCOS patient quite successfully who did not respond very well to chlomid on it's own, but did very well in combination with Chinese herbs. This woman had very delayed menses and very aggressive acne. The formula I used was Wu Wei Xiao Du Yin modified with blood invigorating and Qi rectifying medicinals. Her cycle became very regular, her acne dissipated, and she became pregnant. None of which happened with the Chlomid being used singularly. Best Trevor , " snydez99 " <snydez99 wrote: > > I was wondering how Clomid would be described in Chinese Terms? I recently got two new patients who are on it and both report feeling warmer, one is getting mild hot flashes. So could one describe this drug as a Yang Tonic or at least hot in nature? > > Also, to folks feel it's better to have the patient stop Clomid & do herbs or keep taking it? > Steve > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Wen yang & #28201; & #38451; yang-warming. If you go to www.bluepoppy.com, then to the TCMinfoline, type the word " clomid " in the search box, you will get a number of Chinese articles on CM and clomid/clomiphene citrate. Perhaps type in both names for the best search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Steve - I agree with Trevor's assessment of Clomid (Clomphine Citrate) and it's energetics/side-effects. I would also add that there was a poster presentation of a Meta Analysis at last year's ASRM Conference in San Francisco which pooled somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 RCT's from China that had looked at PCOS patients using Clomid alone for ovulation induction, vs patients using Chinese Herbal Medicine + Clomid for ovulation induction. The Meta-Analysis definitely showed a statistical advantage for PCOS patients using both Clomid and Chinese Herbal Medicine together in terms of the outcomes looked at: ovulation rates, clinical pregnancy rates, and ongoing pregnancy rates. This RCT's looked at in this Meta Analysis were, however, someone heterogeneous in-so-far as some of the trials treated patients with herbs based upon classical TCM pattern differentiation, while some treated patients with herbs based upon empirical formulas for ovulation induction/infertility. The side effects of irritability, hot flashes, even night sweats are not uncommon in patients taking Clomid, and as Trevor said, this is because Clomid is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators), which means that it's molecular make-up allows it to bind to receptor sites that Estradiol would normally bind to - i.e. hypothalamus, endometrium, etc. - and therefore it elicits the the symptoms of Estrogen Deficiency/Perimenopause. These symptoms definitely manifest more commonly in a subset of patients who are already exhibiting either Liver Qi Depression/Depressive Heat, or Kidney Yin Insufficiency/Empty Heat. Clomid will only aggravate their pre- existing conformation. In addition to the side-effects of the medication, these patients don't typically have very promising clinical pregnancy rates either. Clomid definitely seems to work better clinically in the Kidney Yang Deficient patient or the Spleen Qi/Damp type patients. For your patients, you might suggest that it looks like their body is not handling the Clomid very well, and maybe they should consider given you some time to get them balanced before continuing ovulation induction with Clomid again - but I'm not sure it's our place to tell them to stop a med that their doctor has prescribed. You might also consider using acupuncture to offset some of the heat symptoms you are seeing with the Clomid, instead of prescribing herbs. IMHO, it takes a fairly significant degree of experience and knowledge - both with western reproductive medicine and chinese herbal medicine - to safely and effectively use both types of medications together. Good luck and let us know how it goes, Ray Rubio, DAOM, L Ac. (FABORM) President/ABORM Chair: Reproductive Medicine Department/Yo San DAOM Program On Sep 30, 2009, at 12:22 PM, trevor_erikson wrote: > Hi Steve, > > You are correct to say that Chlomid seems hot in nature. Whether it > is a yang tonic per say, I would hesitate to agree. Chlomid's action > is to block estrogen and so it's main side effects are reduced mucus > production, a thinner endometrial lining, as well as the hot > flushes, thirst, irritability, and aggravation of skin diseases like > eczema (my own clinical observation). So all signs of excess heat. > > There has been studies done showing a better overall effect when > CHlomid is used with chinese herbs. One in particular was done with > Wen Jing Tang. > > My basic strategy is to just use acupuncture to support if it is > their first time using chlomid. This usually makes their western > doctor happy as well. Then if they do not get good results I add in > herbal treatment, which is based purely on the pattern I see > manifesting. > > For example I treated a PCOS patient quite successfully who did not > respond very well to chlomid on it's own, but did very well in > combination with Chinese herbs. This woman had very delayed menses > and very aggressive acne. The formula I used was Wu Wei Xiao Du Yin > modified with blood invigorating and Qi rectifying medicinals. Her > cycle became very regular, her acne dissipated, and she became > pregnant. None of which happened with the Chlomid being used > singularly. > > Best > Trevor > > , " snydez99 " <snydez99 > wrote: > > > > I was wondering how Clomid would be described in Chinese Terms? I > recently got two new patients who are on it and both report feeling > warmer, one is getting mild hot flashes. So could one describe this > drug as a Yang Tonic or at least hot in nature? > > > > Also, to folks feel it's better to have the patient stop Clomid & > do herbs or keep taking it? > > Steve > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Hi Trevor & Ray, What about those patients that do not tend to yang xu & dampness who actually feel better when taking Clomid? I have seen one such person in my office that was yin & blood xu with some heat, very thin body type who reported that while taking Clomid she felt more energetic, had no hot flashes and her skin cleared up. Also, her endometrial lining did not thin according to ultrasound and cervical mucus production was normal. According to the CM view of Clomid energetics this doesn't fit. WIth this particular patient Clomid appeared to act like a yin tonic. Any thoughts on this? Kelley Kelley McDaneld L.Ac., Dipl.OM PO Box 883143 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 www.yvacupuncture.com kmcdaneld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Hi Kelley, I'd say that based on the hundreds of women I have seen using chlomid over the past several years, the experience you just described is not very common. It is way more common for me to see the opposite. That being said, perhaps the case you mentioned is one similar to how I have heard Wen Jing Tang's action described. Cold has blocked the proper production of blood and yin, with dryness as a consequence. By " melting the ice " , the flow and production of blood and yin is freed up and thus moisture is restored. Perhaps chlomid melted the ice, so to speak, in your patient?? Just a guess. Trevor , Kelley McDaneld <kmcdaneld wrote: > > Hi Trevor & Ray, > > What about those patients that do not tend to yang xu & dampness who > actually feel better when taking Clomid? I have seen one such person > in my office that was yin & blood xu with some heat, very thin body > type who reported that while taking Clomid she felt more energetic, > had no hot flashes and her skin cleared up. Also, her endometrial > lining did not thin according to ultrasound and cervical mucus > production was normal. According to the CM view of Clomid energetics > this doesn't fit. WIth this particular patient Clomid appeared to act > like a yin tonic. Any thoughts on this? > > Kelley > > > > Kelley McDaneld L.Ac., Dipl.OM > PO Box 883143 > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 > www.yvacupuncture.com > kmcdaneld > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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