bad news

[Guest guest]

this could be bad news for us

The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) is warning people

of the dangers of taking unlicensed herbal medicines containing aconite.

 

Aconite has recently been portrayed in the media as 'herbal valium', however, it

is actually an extremely poisonous plant that is toxic to the heart.

 

It is also known as monkshood and herbal products containing this ingredient

could be fatal or cause serious illness if consumed.

 

The MHRA has received two reports of suspected adverse reactions to aconite, one

where a patient suffered kidney problems and another where the person was

hospitalised after suffering dizziness and paresthesia.

 

MHRA Head of Herbal Policy, Richard Woodfield, said it was vital people did not

confuse herbal medicines and homeopathic ones.

 

" Registered homeopathic products that contain aconite are considered acceptably

safe as the active ingredient, aconite, is sufficiently diluted, " he said.

 

" Herbal medicines are made from plants and so can have a very significant effect

on the body. In certain cases, such as with aconite, the medicine can be

extremely potent.

 

" This is a classic case where 'natural' does not mean 'safe'. "

 

Mr Woodfield said recent media attention focused on a celebrity who allegedly

took a product containing aconite to calm wedding day nerves.

 

" With unlicensed herbal medicines, people need to be aware that the standards

vary widely and can be poor.

 

" However, an increasing range of herbal medicines made to assured standards are

available on the UK market. "

 

Registered and licensed herbal medicines can be identified by the traditional

herbal registration (THR) or the product licence (PL) number on the label.

 

Registered homeopathic products can also be identified by checking the label

which should say 'Homeopathic medicinal product without approved therapeutic

indications', as well as a homeopathic registration number prefixed with the

letters HR.

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

 

 

I have seen such side effects from fuzi with as little as 3 g. I think this

is a real issue, hence why I brought up the quality control thread a couple

months ago. I was surprised at some of the responses, essentially saying

that is completely safe. I will say again, I think there is a huge

difference between Spring Wind's new fuzi and other varieties. The

interesting thing about the article that you posted is that it mentions that

the media portrays it as " herbal Valium. " Have others seen it having such a

sedating effect? I find it, in general, mostly stimulating. However, I am

using therapeutic doses, and people that fit an appropriate diagnosis.

 

 

 

Comments?

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of alonmarcus2003

 

 

 

 

 

The MHRA has received two reports of suspected adverse reactions to aconite,

one where a patient suffered kidney problems and another where the person

was hospitalised after suffering dizziness and paresthesia.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I have seen such side effects from fuzi with as little as 3 g. I think

this

is a real issue, hence why I brought up the quality control thread a

couple

months ago. I was surprised at some of the responses, essentially saying

that is completely safe. I will say again, I think there is a huge

difference between Spring Wind's new fuzi and other varieties. The

interesting thing about the article that you posted is that it

mentions that

the media portrays it as " herbal Valium. " Have others seen it having

such a

sedating effect? I find it, in general, mostly stimulating. However, I

am

using therapeutic doses, and people that fit an appropriate diagnosis.

 

Comments?

 

-

 

Hello all,

 

I agree that Fu Zi seems to be stimulating. On the other hand, I have

gotten some good results for patients with Yang rising - symptoms

being severe headache and insomnia - when there is a true Yang

deficiency below. None-the-less, it seems that calling it an herbal

valium is quite misleading. My results for insomnia I've interpreted

as a result of rooting the Yang through stoking it at the root and not

as a result of sedating in any way.

 

In fact, in terms of side effects, over stimulation and heat are the

side effects I have seen in my own patients. These side effects have,

as Jason reports, can come from a relatively small amount of Fu Zi.

I can't say anything about this being due to the type of Fu Zi I have

used which is exclusively Spring Wind. I've interpreted the side

effects as being either a dosage or a diagnostic issue. (ie inaccurate

diagnosis or inaccurate dosages or proportions) I've also used

relatively larger doses of Fu Zi with no side effects at all.

 

I've never had side effects that would indicate Fu Zi toxicity such as

numbness though. I think there is a difference between a side effect

from an excess of the temperature or nature of an herb and a side

effect from it's un-neutralized toxicity.

 

My question is, how do people differentiate the effects of the

temperature and nature of an herb and the effects from a poison in the

herb? Fu Zi, after all, is quite hot and stimulating. Are the

various varieties different in their level of toxicity or in their

level of warmth and acridity? Are some varieties able to be quite

warm and boosting in mellower ways?

 

Best

 

Sharon

 

 

 

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

sweiz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason

Fuzi is one of the most commonly used herbs in my practice and often the

starting dose is 15g per day. I often go up to 60g per day and have done so for

23 years ever since i came back from china. I have never had any problems what

so ever when using raw or powders. Perhaps it is how i use it, dont know. Many

patients do state that they sleep much deeper but i do not see much sedation.

What is so different with the spring wind fuzi can you elaborate more

 

 

the

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If you have never had problems, is not the issue. Fuzi is clearly

documented to cause problems (in the US and China), and I have seen it in my

practice. Your stance / statement of, - how could there be any problem, I

have never seen it -is IMO being in denial about the possibility. Maybe it

is also the quality of the herb you use. I have no idea. But the reality

exists. I would rather be pro-actively cautious then to get hammered one

day.

 

 

 

As far as Spring wind's difference, go back in the emails (CHA) or call

them.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Friday, October 09, 2009 10:08 AM

 

Re: bad news

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Jason

Fuzi is one of the most commonly used herbs in my practice and often the

starting dose is 15g per day. I often go up to 60g per day and have done so

for 23 years ever since i came back from china. I have never had any

problems what so ever when using raw or powders. Perhaps it is how i use it,

dont know. Many patients do state that they sleep much deeper but i do not

see much sedation. What is so different with the spring wind fuzi can you

elaborate more

 

 

the

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

: 270.14.8/2425 - Release 10/09/09 08:10:00

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

 

 

Maybe also the difference between Boulder and San Fran.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Friday, October 09, 2009 10:08 AM

 

Re: bad news

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Jason

Fuzi is one of the most commonly used herbs in my practice and often the

starting dose is 15g per day. I often go up to 60g per day and have done so

for 23 years ever since i came back from china. I have never had any

problems what so ever when using raw or powders. Perhaps it is how i use it,

dont know. Many patients do state that they sleep much deeper but i do not

see much sedation. What is so different with the spring wind fuzi can you

elaborate more

 

 

the

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Maybe also the difference between using raw and granulars. I've never

had trouble with granular fu zi, did have some with raw a few years

back. I only use pre-prepared granules or liquid extract for fu zi

now. I don't trust that my patients know how to pre-boil the fu zi

then add the other herbs to the decoction. .

 

 

On Oct 9, 2009, at 9:46 AM, wrote:

 

> Alon,

>

> Maybe also the difference between Boulder and San Fran.

>

> -Jason

>

>

> On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

> Friday, October 09, 2009 10:08 AM

>

> Re: bad news

>

> Hi Jason

> Fuzi is one of the most commonly used herbs in my practice and often

> the

> starting dose is 15g per day. I often go up to 60g per day and have

> done so

> for 23 years ever since i came back from china. I have never had any

> problems what so ever when using raw or powders. Perhaps it is how i

> use it,

> dont know. Many patients do state that they sleep much deeper but i

> do not

> see much sedation. What is so different with the spring wind fuzi

> can you

> elaborate more

>

>

> the

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

What type of liquid extract of Fu Zi are you using-is it a K'an prep? It is

my understanding that the more toxic compounds are extracted in disproportionate

amounts when using Ethanol as a solvent.

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

zrosenbe

Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:02:35 -0700

Re: Re: bad news

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe also the difference between using raw and granulars. I've never

had trouble with granular fu zi, did have some with raw a few years

back. I only use pre-prepared granules or liquid extract for fu zi

now. I don't trust that my patients know how to pre-boil the fu zi

then add the other herbs to the decoction. .

 

 

[Guest guest]

, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Maybe also the difference between using raw and granulars. I've never

> had trouble with granular fu zi, did have some with raw a few years

> back.

 

One could probably make a case that granule Fu Zi is more safe, because the

granule companies use a prolonged boiling method and test the product before and

after. Also, there is consistency across a large batch, so you can use the

exact same product many months in a row. I don't know how variable Fu Zi's

aconitine content and/or warmth and acridity varies from root to root within a

single batch, but certainly there are plants that vary in constituents from one

plant to the next, even in the same field. For example, chili peppers grown on

the edge of the field (with less water) can be hotter than peppers grown in the

middle of the field. The natural variation in the product is evened out when

cooking a large granule batch, and the quality control process, testing, and

boiling methods all help to maximize safety. That said, perhaps the raw herb

market still retains the premium quality, top roots because the very top grades

of all herbs tend to remain on the raw market.

 

Nonetheless, when using Fu Zi in granule form, it is essential to know the

concentration ratio. If one gram of Fu Zi granule extract contains 8 grams of

crude Zhi Fu Zi, it should be dosed differently than an extract that contains 5g

of crude drug or 3g of crude drug. The variability of the products on the

market is significant, and items like Fu Zi definitely require transparency on

their labeling.

 

Fu Zi is restricted to TCM experts in many countries in Europe already, and our

community needs to do as much as possible to ensure safe access to it. Having

transparent labeling practices, adverse event reporting systems, and other

self-policing measures are important. We need to build an evidence base and

professional standards to point to in case the FDA tries to reduce our access to

Fu Zi in the future. Like Ma Huang, Fu Zi is an incredibly important medicine

in TCM, it is indispensable.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Do you Fu Zi prescribers find the statement- Fu Zi is only hot when used with

gan Jiang - accurate?

Doug

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Ben,

I use the Kan extracts, specifically zhen wu tang the most, along

with the KPC granules and Heiner's fu zi granules. I couldn't tell

you about Kan's processing of aconite, you may want to contact them

directly. .

 

 

 

On Oct 9, 2009, at 10:13 AM, ben zappin wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> What type of liquid extract of Fu Zi are you using-is it a K'an

> prep? It is my understanding that the more toxic compounds are

> extracted in disproportionate amounts when using Ethanol as a solvent.

>

> Ben

>

>

>

> zrosenbe

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Now that I am home for work I can elaborate a little more... Spring

Wind¡Çs

fu zi has a very prolonged cooking method (I am pretty sure it is considered

a cooked aconite accessory root (½ÏÉí»Ò shu fu zi), and is the first

choice

for Japan. I personally think it is more about the herb than the delivery

system. I would bet there is lower quality granular fu zi, just as I believe

there lower quality raw fu zi. For example, I have also seen strange

reactions from granular fu zi. However, since I have been unable to compare

the granulars as I have done with the bulk I have no idea if it was bad

diagnosis, inferior fu zi or something else. I always find it interesting

that every company out there has the ¡Èbest quality¡É - someone has

to be

getting the short end of the fu zi. J

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of smilinglotus

Friday, October 09, 2009 1:02 PM

 

Re: bad news

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<%40> , <zrosenbe

> wrote:

>

> Maybe also the difference between using raw and granulars. I've never

> had trouble with granular fu zi, did have some with raw a few years

> back.

 

One could probably make a case that granule Fu Zi is more safe, because the

granule companies use a prolonged boiling method and test the product before

and after. Also, there is consistency across a large batch, so you can use

the exact same product many months in a row. I don't know how variable Fu

Zi's aconitine content and/or warmth and acridity varies from root to root

within a single batch, but certainly there are plants that vary in

constituents from one plant to the next, even in the same field. For

example, chili peppers grown on the edge of the field (with less water) can

be hotter than peppers grown in the middle of the field. The natural

variation in the product is evened out when cooking a large granule batch,

and the quality control process, testing, and boiling methods all help to

maximize safety. That said, perhaps the raw herb market still retains the

premium quality, top roots because the very top grades of all herbs tend to

remain on the raw market.

 

Nonetheless, when using Fu Zi in granule form, it is essential to know the

concentration ratio. If one gram of Fu Zi granule extract contains 8 grams

of crude Zhi Fu Zi, it should be dosed differently than an extract that

contains 5g of crude drug or 3g of crude drug. The variability of the

products on the market is significant, and items like Fu Zi definitely

require transparency on their labeling.

 

Fu Zi is restricted to TCM experts in many countries in Europe already, and

our community needs to do as much as possible to ensure safe access to it.

Having transparent labeling practices, adverse event reporting systems, and

other self-policing measures are important. We need to build an evidence

base and professional standards to point to in case the FDA tries to reduce

our access to Fu Zi in the future. Like Ma Huang, Fu Zi is an incredibly

important medicine in TCM, it is indispensable.

 

Eric Brand

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason

I dont deny the dangers of fuzi, but lets remember that even too much

water can be dangerous. I guess i am saying it can be used very safely

even in large doses. Since for me fuzi is one of the most important

herbs i believe we need to create a strong case for its safe use. It

may be only a question of time until we need to defend our use of

aconite. I think we have to create some kind of public record. For

many years i have used fuzi and often adding other herbs to control

possible side effects. Ever since studying with arnaud i just use the

pulse and never add herbs for balance, i just use classical formulas.

I do combine herbs as per his teaching but its never about controlling

its nature, except perhaps using zhi shi if the patient has tendency

for constipation. I have not noticed any side effects so far with this

approach as well. Currently i only use powders and its not uncommon

for me to give 10g of powder per day of fuzi. I have never noticed any

toxic effects, the numb tongue etc. I also use zhi cao wu and zhi

chuan wu all the time and have not seen problems. The dangers of

aconite are well documented but at the same time its benefit and safe

use must be documented in the west so that we do not loose this

important plant. SF is definitely not as dry as were you are so maybe

that is why i see less problems i do not know. Oe perhaps because i

see pain patients that have been using many drugs for years that i see

so much cold and yang def.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev

i think you make a good point

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Eric

I cant agree with you more. We must do that or we will loose this

important plant. you say That said, perhaps the raw herb market still

retains the premium quality, top roots because the very top grades of

all herbs tend to remain on the raw market. While i am definitely not

an expert, the quality of herbs i saw when visiting the company i use

from taiwan definitely looked as good as what i was getting in raw

form here in the US. I dont know if things have changed lately its

been many years since i visited taiwan or china. I would think that

the lower quality herbs would be more likely to cause problems so i

dont think raw vs powders argument makes sense in this regard. By the

way i am currently taking 30g fuzhi per day and been switching back

and forth between powders and raw. I personally cant tell the

difference has far as effects. They taste and feel the same. The raw

is from nuherbs so i cant comment of the new SW fuzi.

 

Alon

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus