Guest guest Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Alon, 1. The herbs is US are known to be lower quality than most other places. 2. Are you saying you are taking 30g of granular herbs a day? (if so, what company?) Or are you saying 30g of powdered fuzi? Just curious what benefit do you see and how long have you been doing this? I assume it is in a formula? 3. In general I wonder how long one can safely give fu zi at doses like this. Many case studies with high fu zi are only short-term. 4. Clearly granular herbs (if the proper methods are taken) can use HPLC etc to guarantee there are no blatant toxicity issues. This is a big selling point for this herb. I just don't trust all the granular companies. 5. Alon, you should order a pound of the raw SW fuzi and let me know what you feel the difference is. I found out that the company that SW gets their fuzi from does all the processing themselves according to strict standards for Japan. It is much different than the average stuff out there. -Jason On Behalf Of alon marcus Saturday, October 10, 2009 11:58 AM Re: bad news Eric I cant agree with you more. We must do that or we will loose this important plant. you say That said, perhaps the raw herb market still retains the premium quality, top roots because the very top grades of all herbs tend to remain on the raw market. While i am definitely not an expert, the quality of herbs i saw when visiting the company i use from taiwan definitely looked as good as what i was getting in raw form here in the US. I dont know if things have changed lately its been many years since i visited taiwan or china. I would think that the lower quality herbs would be more likely to cause problems so i dont think raw vs powders argument makes sense in this regard. By the way i am currently taking 30g fuzhi per day and been switching back and forth between powders and raw. I personally cant tell the difference has far as effects. They taste and feel the same. The raw is from nuherbs so i cant comment of the new SW fuzi. Alon e: 10/09/09 08:10:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Alon, Comparing fu zi to water is IMO not a valid argument. Of course water (or anything) in large amounts can be problematic, but a) this is not from inherent toxicity. Fu zi if processed incorrectly is toxic, period. B) fu zi (for some) can be problematic in small dosages. You (Alon) may use large dosages and have no problem (and I agree this is possible with the majority of patients), but as mentioned I have seen toxic effects with as little as 3g. I am not saying this is the norm or happens often, but this is different than just side-effect from misdiagnosis. Furthermore, many just believe that if Chinese herbs are given based on proper diagnosis there will be no problem. This is simply naïve. Herbs must be processed by various detoxification pathways. One can be very strongly yang xu and have indications for fu zi and just have no ability to detox the toxins that are inherent in the herb itself – they consequently may have side-effects. This is different than consuming water (or other mild herbs) that do not have this toxic nature. While someone else that is not yang xu may have intact detoxification pathways and have no toxic side-effects, even though the herb is really not indicated for them. We also have to understand that our detoxification pathways are a) different than historical times (due to our environments, chemicals etc). This detoxification damage makes us more susceptible to mild toxins etc. Note many with multiple chemical sensitivities. Also I am pretty sure there is documented differences in the Asian detoxification system and Westerners. Just some things to consider. -Jason On Behalf Of alon marcus Saturday, October 10, 2009 11:45 AM Re: bad news Jason I dont deny the dangers of fuzi, but lets remember that even too much water can be dangerous. I guess i am saying it can be used very safely even in large doses. Since for me fuzi is one of the most important herbs i believe we need to create a strong case for its safe use. It may be only a question of time until we need to defend our use of aconite. I think we have to create some kind of public record. For many years i have used fuzi and often adding other herbs to control possible side effects. Ever since studying with arnaud i just use the pulse and never add herbs for balance, i just use classical formulas. I do combine herbs as per his teaching but its never about controlling its nature, except perhaps using zhi shi if the patient has tendency for constipation. I have not noticed any side effects so far with this approach as well. Currently i only use powders and its not uncommon for me to give 10g of powder per day of fuzi. I have never noticed any toxic effects, the numb tongue etc. I also use zhi cao wu and zhi chuan wu all the time and have not seen problems. The dangers of aconite are well documented but at the same time its benefit and safe use must be documented in the west so that we do not loose this important plant. SF is definitely not as dry as were you are so maybe that is why i see less problems i do not know. Oe perhaps because i see pain patients that have been using many drugs for years that i see so much cold and yang def. - Release 10/09/09 08:10:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Jason As you know i do not believe that chinese herbs are inertly safe and as i said in past i dont think we truly have high quality evidence in terms of safety. At the same time i am only trying to make my experience public so that we have increased public record on this subject. Personally i think we need to create some kind of central reporting body on all side effects noted with herbal use. This could give us more credibility when this discussion becomes more formal. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 2. Are you saying you are taking 30g of granular herbs a day? (if so, what company?) Or are you saying 30g of powdered fuzi? Just curious what benefit do you see and how long have you been doing this? I assume it is in a formula >>>>>>>>no i am taking 30g raw or 6g powder per day. Currently i am dealing with a digestive issue and do not foresee taking this formula for that long. I have been taking it for 3 weeks now. Yes its a formula, sinisan with 30g fuzi and 72g xia bai. 3. In general I wonder how long one can safely give fu zi at doses like this. Many case studies with high fu zi are only short-term. >>>>>>>Using the old way i have given upto 30g per day for many months at a time. The way i use it now i have less experience with but have had some patients on zhen wu tang for example for 6 months. I will now continue to give as long as the pulse shows need, the patient is benefiting and i do not see problems. In the past unless i saw problems, which for most of the time i just added herbs to balance, i would use fuzi as long as the patient benefited. By the way i have seen more problems with very high doses of pu gong ying type herbs including liver enzymes than from fuzi. 4. Clearly granular herbs (if the proper methods are taken) can use HPLC etc to guarantee there are no blatant toxicity issues. This is a big selling point for this herb. I just don't trust all the granular companies. >>>>>I have experience only with min tang and quali herbs. I have visited quali in taiwan and was very impressed with their raw herb quality. By the way 25 years ago the quality of raw herbs in US was higher than what i see these days although i do not keep a raw pharmacy and therefore do not have day to day experience. I do at time take them my self or have patients get them. 5. Alon, you should order a pound of the raw SW fuzi and let me know what you feel the difference is. I found out that the company that SW gets their fuzi from does all the processing themselves according to strict standards for Japan. It is much different than the average stuff out there. >>>>I might but as i said i do not keep a raw pharmacy. I get my formula from the local china town outlet of nuherbs. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Alon, I have always liked this formula idea, and consequently posted an interesting case study with an almost identical formula (although there is no fu zi). I would love to hear about where this high dose of xie bai comes from. Chinese Medicine/case-studies/si-ni-san-constipation/ let me know what you all think... -Jason On Behalf Of alon marcus >>>>>>>>no i am taking 30g raw or 6g powder per day. Currently i am dealing with a digestive issue and do not foresee taking this formula for that long. I have been taking it for 3 weeks now. Yes its a formula, sinisan with 30g fuzi and 72g xia bai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 I think this is a great idea, Alon. . On Oct 11, 2009, at 9:12 AM, alon marcus wrote: > Jason > As you know i do not believe that chinese herbs are inertly safe and > as i said in past i dont think we truly have high quality evidence in > terms of safety. At the same time i am only trying to make my > experience public so that we have increased public record on this > subject. Personally i think we need to create some kind of central > reporting body on all side effects noted with herbal use. This could > give us more credibility when this discussion becomes more formal. > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > alonmarcus > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Z'ev and Alon - I agree. We need an adverse events reporting system. The AAAOM was working on this and has been focused on a lobbyist and HR646 the last year. But, the veterinarians have an excellent AER system that they used to get fed approval of certain supplements for animals. The AAAOM is in conversation with the vendor of that system to build it out. They need support from the profession at large in order to move this along. Warmly, Will , <zrosenbe wrote: > > I think this is a great idea, Alon. . > > > > On Oct 11, 2009, at 9:12 AM, alon marcus wrote: > > > Jason > > As you know i do not believe that chinese herbs are inertly safe and > > as i said in past i dont think we truly have high quality evidence in > > terms of safety. At the same time i am only trying to make my > > experience public so that we have increased public record on this > > subject. Personally i think we need to create some kind of central > > reporting body on all side effects noted with herbal use. This could > > give us more credibility when this discussion becomes more formal. > > > > > > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419 > > Oakland Ca 94609 > > > > > > > > alonmarcus > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 The hi dose xia bai was arnaud's suggestion 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 The Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine in the UK has an AER system for its members. Blue Poppy also has its own in-house AER system for our customers. I believe that's part of the FDA cGMPs (although I could be wrong about that). Definitely our profession needs an AER system, and we need to be proactive in creating this ourselves, not reactive when some Federal agency shoves their system down our throats. Of course, do I think we will do this? Sorry to be so jaundiced, but no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 , " William " <wmorris33 wrote: > > Z'ev and Alon - > > I agree. We need an adverse events reporting system. The AAAOM was working on this and has been focused on a lobbyist and HR646 the last year. I've got some NIH contacts that are working on some funding for this AAAOM adverse event project as well. It seems to be coming together fairly well so far, so I am optimistic. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Not that I also don't think this is important, but this seems extremely difficult when discussing/reporting single medicinals and custom formulas. How do others envision this working? -Jason On Behalf Of William Monday, October 12, 2009 8:44 AM Re: FU ZI II Z'ev and Alon - I agree. We need an adverse events reporting system. The AAAOM was working on this and has been focused on a lobbyist and HR646 the last year. But, the veterinarians have an excellent AER system that they used to get fed approval of certain supplements for animals. The AAAOM is in conversation with the vendor of that system to build it out. They need support from the profession at large in order to move this along. Warmly, Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Hello group In Europe there are at least two such databases collecting information on sideeffects with chinese medicinals, one of them, strated by Axel Wiebrecht in Germany is trying to reach out to other such databases, so as to coordinate them in some way. Whoever is interested can contact Axel directly: axel.wiebrecht or go to: www.ctca.de ( this is the website of the database) Greetings Nina Zhao-Seiler Praxis für Traditionelle Chinesische Medizin Wilfriedstrasse 8 CH-8032 Zürich Tel: +41 44 251 1331 Fax: +41 43 243 6990 ninaseiler www.tongentangpraxis.org www.tcmherbs.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2009 Report Share Posted October 21, 2009 I am fascinated by the photo on this page, " Center for Safety of Chinese Herbal Medicine " because it is of Borage (Borago officinalis), a well known WESTERN herbal medicine. Just think it is interesting..... Thomas > Hello group > > In Europe there are at least two such databases collecting > information on sideeffects with chinese medicinals, one of them, > strated by Axel Wiebrecht in Germany is trying to reach out to > such databases, so as to coordinate them in some way. Whoever is > interested can contact Axel directly: axel.wiebrecht or > go to: www.ctca.de ( this is the website of the database) > > Greetings > > Nina Zhao-Seiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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