Guest guest Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 I was wondering what some of the experienced practitioners thoughts are about prescribing and/or modifying formulas for patients who are current substance abusers. Specifically, for a smoker who produces a lot of clear, watery mucous. Would it not be right to try to transform phlegm in this case because the phlegm is the body's response to smoke in the lungs? And for an admitted cocaine user, who rarely drinks coffee. Would prescribing a formula with a high dose of green tea in it be dangerous, in case cocaine is ingested at the same time? Michelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Michelle, Imo, the best way to approach substance abuse with TCM/acupuncture is when it is part of a substance abuse program such as 12 steps, counseling, medical attention, etc.; it is not, imv, something for us to tackle alone unless you have plenty of experience, maturity, patience, and time.. There is just too much baggage, deception, and can be very stressing.. Fernando , " Michelle " <mgelsimino wrote: > > I was wondering what some of the experienced practitioners thoughts are about prescribing and/or modifying formulas for patients who are current substance abusers. Specifically, for a smoker who produces a lot of clear, watery mucous. Would it not be right to try to transform phlegm in this case because the phlegm is the body's response to smoke in the lungs? And for an admitted cocaine user, who rarely drinks coffee. Would prescribing a formula with a high dose of green tea in it be dangerous, in case cocaine is ingested at the same time? > > Michelle > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 One has to be clear what you can and can't do, and what your objectives are for addicted patients. In the case of the smoker I don't think its bad to treat the phlegm. Smokers often smoke more to dry the phlegm. I'm not quite sure why you consider the green tea... to detox? Tian Wan Bu Xin Dan is the first formula I think of for addiction of any kind but especially cocaine. Couldn't agree with Fernando more that trying to treat addiction in the private clinic often just ends up enabling and or frustrating both you and the patient. Groups are important. However if we are clear that we are not claiming to un-addict the patient then it comes back to " treat what you see " . Addiction is a fascinating topic. I've taught it several times in TCM school and I'm going to a CEU with Shelly Bobbins LAC today. Perhaps you know this already but for others there are some good books, A Breath at a Time (Buddhism and Twelve Steps), Alex Braumbaugh is a classic for acupuncture and finally one called Addiction- Escape from Responsibility. Doug , " fbernall " <fbernall wrote: > > Michelle, > > Imo, the best way to approach substance abuse with TCM/acupuncture is when it is part of a substance abuse program such as 12 steps, counseling, medical attention, etc.; it is not, imv, something for us to tackle alone unless you have plenty of experience, maturity, patience, and time.. There is just too much baggage, deception, and can be very stressing.. > > Fernando > > , " Michelle " <mgelsimino@> wrote: > > > > I was wondering what some of the experienced practitioners thoughts are about prescribing and/or modifying formulas for patients who are current substance abusers. Specifically, for a smoker who produces a lot of clear, watery mucous. Would it not be right to try to transform phlegm in this case because the phlegm is the body's response to smoke in the lungs? And for an admitted cocaine user, who rarely drinks coffee. Would prescribing a formula with a high dose of green tea in it be dangerous, in case cocaine is ingested at the same time? > > > > Michelle > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Thank you for your reply. This is a difficult patient because, while they know they should not be abusing substances which are harming their health, they still have no desire to stop. They initially wanted herbs to " boost immune function " . They fit a pattern for a formula which has green tea, but I am just worried about the combination of green tea and cocaine. Would the green tea potentiate the effects of cocaine? I realize I do not have much control over this patient's drug use and do not want to make matters worse if/when they do. , " fbernall " <fbernall wrote: > > Michelle, > > Imo, the best way to approach substance abuse with TCM/acupuncture is when it is part of a substance abuse program such as 12 steps, counseling, medical attention, etc.; it is not, imv, something for us to tackle alone unless you have plenty of experience, maturity, patience, and time.. There is just too much baggage, deception, and can be very stressing.. > > Fernando > > , " Michelle " <mgelsimino@> wrote: > > > > I was wondering what some of the experienced practitioners thoughts are about prescribing and/or modifying formulas for patients who are current substance abusers. Specifically, for a smoker who produces a lot of clear, watery mucous. Would it not be right to try to transform phlegm in this case because the phlegm is the body's response to smoke in the lungs? And for an admitted cocaine user, who rarely drinks coffee. Would prescribing a formula with a high dose of green tea in it be dangerous, in case cocaine is ingested at the same time? > > > > Michelle > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Doug, Out of curiosity I looked and found the title of the book below is " ONE Breath at a Time: Buddhism & Twelve Steps " , which looks interesting. The Alex Brambaugh book is Transformation and Recovery: A Guide for the Design and Development of Acupuncture-Based Chemical Dependency Treatment Programs. But I can't find any title for " Addiction - Escape from Responsibility " . Did you get the title quite right? ann On Oct 18, 2009, at 10:49 AM, wrote: > One has to be clear what you can and can't do, and what your > objectives are for addicted patients. In the case of the smoker I > don't think its bad to treat the phlegm. Smokers often smoke more to > dry the phlegm. I'm not quite sure why you consider the green tea... > to detox? Tian Wan Bu Xin Dan is the first formula I think of for > addiction of any kind but especially cocaine. > > Couldn't agree with Fernando more that trying to treat addiction in > the private clinic often just ends up enabling and or frustrating > both you and the patient. Groups are important. However if we are > clear that we are not claiming to un-addict the patient then it > comes back to " treat what you see " . > > Addiction is a fascinating topic. I've taught it several times in > TCM school and I'm going to a CEU with Shelly Bobbins LAC today. > Perhaps you know this already but for others there are some good > books, A Breath at a Time (Buddhism and Twelve Steps), Alex > Braumbaugh is a classic for acupuncture and finally one called > Addiction- Escape from Responsibility. > Doug > > , " fbernall " <fbernall > wrote: > > > > Michelle, > > > > Imo, the best way to approach substance abuse with TCM/acupuncture > is when it is part of a substance abuse program such as 12 steps, > counseling, medical attention, etc.; it is not, imv, something for > us to tackle alone unless you have plenty of experience, maturity, > patience, and time.. There is just too much baggage, deception, and > can be very stressing.. > > > > Fernando > > > > , " Michelle " > <mgelsimino@> wrote: > > > > > > I was wondering what some of the experienced practitioners > thoughts are about prescribing and/or modifying formulas for > patients who are current substance abusers. Specifically, for a > smoker who produces a lot of clear, watery mucous. Would it not be > right to try to transform phlegm in this case because the phlegm is > the body's response to smoke in the lungs? And for an admitted > cocaine user, who rarely drinks coffee. Would prescribing a formula > with a high dose of green tea in it be dangerous, in case cocaine is > ingested at the same time? > > > > > > Michelle > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Your titles are correct.. sorry, I was running out the door when I wrote all this. There is also the 12 Step Buddhist, which is Ok but I liked One Breath at a Time better. I'll look for the correct title for the last one. Doug , " A. Brameier " <snakeoil.works wrote: > > Doug, > Out of curiosity I looked and found the title of the book below is > " ONE Breath at a Time: Buddhism & Twelve Steps " , which looks > interesting. > The Alex Brambaugh book is Transformation and Recovery: A Guide for > the Design and Development of Acupuncture-Based Chemical Dependency > Treatment Programs. > But I can't find any title for " Addiction - Escape from > Responsibility " . Did you get the title quite right? > ann > > On Oct 18, 2009, at 10:49 AM, wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Michelle, one can do coke for years and plenty of it with no problems. Then one day, just half a line can trigger a heart attack.. It is best to not treat these " patient " . You also want to make sure that an a indirect way you do not become an enabler. I've uploaded an outpatient program I set up for a detox center in Delaware about 12 years ago on the inclusion of acupuncture for their clients... http://f1.grp.fs.com/v1/0GLcSouis6d8aMBI1KB98Eb_kGp08MKQrGMrMS9sFPK_1S7q-pC\ yWQa-YnPs0mrTU2wUiM7iBuX7LL1MEeoPa6lwwbxG/Auricular_Acupuncture_Protocol.pdf good luck to you.. fernando , " Michelle " <mgelsimino wrote: Would the green tea potentiate the effects of cocaine? I realize I do not have much control over this patient's drug use and do not want to make matters worse if/when they do. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 I wouldn't give high doses of green tea to a patient who uses cocaine. Any central nervous system stimulant will potentiate the effect. I probably wouldn't give any herbs at all to somebody who refused to stop using cocaine. A stroke or heart attack from the cocaine use might be blamed on the herbs. - Bill , " Michelle " <mgelsimino wrote: > > Thank you for your reply. This is a difficult patient because, while they know they should not be abusing substances which are harming their health, they still have no desire to stop. They initially wanted herbs to " boost immune function " . They fit a pattern for a formula which has green tea, but I am just worried about the combination of green tea and cocaine. Would the green tea potentiate the effects of cocaine? I realize I do not have much control over this patient's drug use and do not want to make matters worse if/when they do. > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@> wrote: > > > > Michelle, > > > > Imo, the best way to approach substance abuse with TCM/acupuncture is when it is part of a substance abuse program such as 12 steps, counseling, medical attention, etc.; it is not, imv, something for us to tackle alone unless you have plenty of experience, maturity, patience, and time.. There is just too much baggage, deception, and can be very stressing.. > > > > Fernando > > > > , " Michelle " <mgelsimino@> wrote: > > > > > > I was wondering what some of the experienced practitioners thoughts are about prescribing and/or modifying formulas for patients who are current substance abusers. Specifically, for a smoker who produces a lot of clear, watery mucous. Would it not be right to try to transform phlegm in this case because the phlegm is the body's response to smoke in the lungs? And for an admitted cocaine user, who rarely drinks coffee. Would prescribing a formula with a high dose of green tea in it be dangerous, in case cocaine is ingested at the same time? > > > > > > Michelle > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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