Weil whacked

October 22, 2009

It is easy for those of us licensed (allowed) to administer TOM (or TCM,

etc) to miss how others might view some of our raw materials, such as

astragalus. I hope we all have seen what the outsider Mike Adams has said

about the recent Andrew Weil 'event'.

http://www.naturalnews.com/027303_the_FTC_America_vaccines.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/027302_astragalus_the_flu.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/027301_swine_flu_influenza_pandemic.html

Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

Near San Francisco CA

On Behalf Of Happy Herbalist

Thursday, October 22, 2009 6:49 AM

Re: Weil whacked

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to this.

I had some problems myself with the FDA a few years ago and I wanted to

fight them so bad Grrrr.

But my wife said (in short) go with the flow. Do what they asked and yes it

all went away really quite painless for me business wise. The other side of

me said hey .bring it on . and wanted to fight on the grounds that

California took my money and issued me a license. Now if I do what I am

qualified to do under California law; that is use the terms exactly as on

the State Exam, referenced from the material indicated for that examination,

then the Fed's have a problem with the Sate of California not with me!

So I do cheer on all those who choose to fight.

said quietly from the safety of keeping my head low, my family well fed,

and a decent bank account.

Ed Kasper LAc

October 23, 2009

However, wouldn't we say from a Chinese medical perspective that astragalus

(huang qi) may or may not be good for colds and flus. There are plenty of

people whose constitution would not benefit from this herb, consequently

weakening their immune system. Actually any formula, even a clearing and

draining one, if the constitution/condition of the patient fits, will boost

that person's " immune system " Recommending any one remedy seems contrary to

basic Chinese medicine's philosophy. Comments?

-

On Behalf Of Douglas Dailey

Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:05 PM

RE: Re: Weil whacked

It is easy for those of us licensed (allowed) to administer TOM (or TCM,

etc) to miss how others might view some of our raw materials, such as

astragalus. I hope we all have seen what the outsider Mike Adams has said

about the recent Andrew Weil 'event'.

http://www.naturalnews.com/027303_the_FTC_America_vaccines.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/027302_astragalus_the_flu.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/027301_swine_flu_influenza_pandemic.html

Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

Near San Francisco CA

October 23, 2009

Jason,

I wonder if you sent an article to _Natural News_ about your point--

> Actually any formula, even a clearing and

> draining one, if the constitution/ condition of the patient fits, will

> boost

> that person's " immune system " Recommending any one remedy seems

> contrary to

> basic Chinese medicine's philosophy.

--would they print it? It would be worth trying. More about how we use

Chinese herbs needs to reach the public consciousness.

Frances Gander, L.Ac.

Athens, OH

October 23, 2009

This is undoubtedly true. I am one of those people that responds

poorly to huang qi. If I take yu ping feng san I will get sick in a

week or so. This phenomenon speaks to the fact of doing proper

diagnosis from a TCM perspective and always reframing WM diagnoses in

terms of .

-Steve

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 23, 2009, at 7:51 AM, " " <

> wrote:

> However, wouldn't we say from a Chinese medical perspective that

> astragalus

> (huang qi) may or may not be good for colds and flus. There are

> plenty of

> people whose constitution would not benefit from this herb,

> consequently

> weakening their immune system. Actually any formula, even a clearing

> and

> draining one, if the constitution/condition of the patient fits,

> will boost

> that person's " immune system " Recommending any one remedy seems

> contrary to

> basic Chinese medicine's philosophy. Comments?

>

> -

>

> On Behalf Of Douglas

> Dailey

> Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:05 PM

>

> RE: Re: Weil whacked

>

> It is easy for those of us licensed (allowed) to administer TOM (or

> TCM,

> etc) to miss how others might view some of our raw materials, such as

> astragalus. I hope we all have seen what the outsider Mike Adams has

> said

> about the recent Andrew Weil 'event'.

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027303_the_FTC_America_vaccines.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027302_astragalus_the_flu.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027301_swine_flu_influenza_pandemic.html

>

> Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

> Near San Francisco CA

>

October 23, 2009

Absolutely, Jason. The frame of reference of 'boosting immune

system' is not an accurate description of how astragulus works, and we

could say the same for many bitter, cold medicinals, draining

medicinals, etc. .

On Oct 23, 2009, at 5:51 AM, wrote:

> However, wouldn't we say from a Chinese medical perspective that

> astragalus

> (huang qi) may or may not be good for colds and flus. There are

> plenty of

> people whose constitution would not benefit from this herb,

> consequently

> weakening their immune system. Actually any formula, even a clearing

> and

> draining one, if the constitution/condition of the patient fits,

> will boost

> that person's " immune system " Recommending any one remedy seems

> contrary to

> basic Chinese medicine's philosophy. Comments?

>

> -

>

> On Behalf Of Douglas

> Dailey

> Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:05 PM

>

> RE: Re: Weil whacked

>

> It is easy for those of us licensed (allowed) to administer TOM (or

> TCM,

> etc) to miss how others might view some of our raw materials, such as

> astragalus. I hope we all have seen what the outsider Mike Adams has

> said

> about the recent Andrew Weil 'event'.

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027303_the_FTC_America_vaccines.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027302_astragalus_the_flu.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027301_swine_flu_influenza_pandemic.html

>

> Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

> Near San Francisco CA

>

October 23, 2009

These articles are simply conspiratorial nonsense. The FTC didn't crack down on

Weil to do the bidding of the vaccine industry. They were simply enforcing the

law, as they have done numerous times in the past before the H1N1 outbreak. They

also weren't saying that astragalus doesn't work. They were responding to Weil's

illegal " disease claims " that his product can prevent the swine flu. Even if the

product underwent clinical trials and successfully prevented or treated H1N1, it

would STILL be illegal to claim that. He would have to market the product as a

drug after undergoing all the usual expensive hurdles of introducing a new drug.

Do the FDA / FTC favor vaccines over herbs? Of course they do. That is the

current state of public health science, flawed as it may be, and they are simply

reflecting that reality.

Whenever a supplement is marketed as treating or preventing a potentially fatal

disease, the FDA or FTC come down heavy on that company. It has nothing to do

with the actual efficacy of the product. Is the law unfair? Sometimes, but it is

much better than the way it was before DSHEA, when you couldn't make any claims

at all for herbal products. Structure function claims are vague and broad by

their nature, but they are legal. Weil could have claimed that his product

supports a healthy immune system, and FTC would have left him alone.

- Bill Schoenbart

, " Douglas Dailey " <ddailey wrote:

>

> It is easy for those of us licensed (allowed) to administer TOM (or TCM,

> etc) to miss how others might view some of our raw materials, such as

> astragalus. I hope we all have seen what the outsider Mike Adams has said

> about the recent Andrew Weil 'event'.

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027303_the_FTC_America_vaccines.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027302_astragalus_the_flu.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027301_swine_flu_influenza_pandemic.html

>

> Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

> Near San Francisco CA

>

October 23, 2009

Yes indeed Bill,

It appears you have done some intensive observation of the FDA. So you are

aware that Monsanto has sued and put out of business over 10,000 American

farmers in the last 10 years because a few of their patented genetically

modified seeds have mysteriously appeared (after helicopter fly-overs) in

the farmer's fields. Obviously the farmers are conspiring. Monsanto's chief

lawyer actually became director of FDA for about a year in order to tweak

the FDA's laws. I am glad you think it was for your benefit. You should

ponder deeply the fact that conspiratory behavior is more closely linked

with big business than it is with the behavior of Mike Adams, whose writing

you describe as " conspiratorial nonsense " .

Perhaps you killed people in a war foisted for profits only, and want to

believe yourself a spokesman for peace and honor, something that the

corporations and royal families deny most of the world. But your

understanding of the vaccine industry and the medical industry in general is

woefully deficient. There is NO freedom of the press in the US despite your

lip-service. So, have a great day on YOUR list server.

So go ahead, suck-up and make money. And when people have opinions that

frighten you, call it " conspiratorial nonsense " .

Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart

Friday, October 23, 2009 12:53 PM

Re: Weil whacked

These articles are simply conspiratorial nonsense. The FTC didn't crack down

on Weil to do the bidding of the vaccine industry. They were simply

enforcing the law, as they have done numerous times in the past before the

H1N1 outbreak. They also weren't saying that astragalus doesn't work. They

were responding to Weil's illegal " disease claims " that his product can

prevent the swine flu. Even if the product underwent clinical trials and

successfully prevented or treated H1N1, it would STILL be illegal to claim

that. He would have to market the product as a drug after undergoing all the

usual expensive hurdles of introducing a new drug.

Do the FDA / FTC favor vaccines over herbs? Of course they do. That is the

current state of public health science, flawed as it may be, and they are

simply reflecting that reality.

Whenever a supplement is marketed as treating or preventing a potentially

fatal disease, the FDA or FTC come down heavy on that company. It has

nothing to do with the actual efficacy of the product. Is the law unfair?

Sometimes, but it is much better than the way it was before DSHEA, when you

couldn't make any claims at all for herbal products. Structure function

claims are vague and broad by their nature, but they are legal. Weil could

have claimed that his product supports a healthy immune system, and FTC

would have left him alone.

- Bill Schoenbart

, " Douglas Dailey " <ddailey

wrote:

>

> It is easy for those of us licensed (allowed) to administer TOM (or TCM,

> etc) to miss how others might view some of our raw materials, such as

> astragalus. I hope we all have seen what the outsider Mike Adams has said

> about the recent Andrew Weil 'event'.

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027303_the_FTC_America_vaccines.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027302_astragalus_the_flu.html

>

> http://www.naturalnews.com/027301_swine_flu_influenza_pandemic.html

>

> Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

> Near San Francisco CA

>

---

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a

practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum.

October 23, 2009

Influenza is a Western diagnosis. How about " tonify lung and wei qi. "

-

" "

Friday, October 23, 2009 5:51 AM

RE: Re: Weil whacked

> However, wouldn't we say from a Chinese medical perspective that

> astragalus

> (huang qi) may or may not be good for colds and flus. There are plenty of

> people whose constitution would not benefit from this herb, consequently

> weakening their immune system. Actually any formula, even a clearing and

> draining one, if the constitution/condition of the patient fits, will

> boost

> that person's " immune system " Recommending any one remedy seems contrary

> to

> basic Chinese medicine's philosophy. Comments?

>

> -

>

October 23, 2009

Interestingly, studies in Taiwan and mainland have shown herbs like

huangqin üÜÐÙ to have immune modulating and boosting functions. As a side

note, but somewhat related to this thread, this commentary just came

out from CNN's website:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/23/commentary.brawley.cancer.treatment/index.h\

tml

Daniel Altschuler

....

Absolutely, Jason. The frame of reference of 'boosting

immune

system' is not an accurate description of how astragulus works, and we

could say the same for many bitter, cold medicinals, draining

medicinals, etc. .

October 23, 2009

Tonifying lung or wei qi should be an okay claim as it doesn't automatically

suggest that you're fixing anything. However if you then go on to say that

wei qi prevents H1N1 infection, you're walking on thinner ice.

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

magisterium_magnum wrote:

>

> Influenza is a Western diagnosis. How about " tonify lung and wei qi. "

>

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

October 24, 2009

Doug,

You need to tone down the insults if you want to have a reasonable debate on

this issue.

- Bill

, " Douglas Dailey " <ddailey wrote:

>

> Yes indeed Bill,

>

> It appears you have done some intensive observation of the FDA. So you are

> aware that Monsanto has sued and put out of business over 10,000 American

> farmers in the last 10 years because a few of their patented genetically

> modified seeds have mysteriously appeared (after helicopter fly-overs) in

> the farmer's fields. Obviously the farmers are conspiring. Monsanto's chief

> lawyer actually became director of FDA for about a year in order to tweak

> the FDA's laws. I am glad you think it was for your benefit. You should

> ponder deeply the fact that conspiratory behavior is more closely linked

> with big business than it is with the behavior of Mike Adams, whose writing

> you describe as " conspiratorial nonsense " .

>

> Perhaps you killed people in a war foisted for profits only, and want to

> believe yourself a spokesman for peace and honor, something that the

> corporations and royal families deny most of the world. But your

> understanding of the vaccine industry and the medical industry in general is

> woefully deficient. There is NO freedom of the press in the US despite your

> lip-service. So, have a great day on YOUR list server.

>

> So go ahead, suck-up and make money. And when people have opinions that

> frighten you, call it " conspiratorial nonsense " .

>

> Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

>

> On Behalf Of bill_schoenbart

> Friday, October 23, 2009 12:53 PM

>

> Re: Weil whacked

>

> These articles are simply conspiratorial nonsense. The FTC didn't crack down

> on Weil to do the bidding of the vaccine industry. They were simply

> enforcing the law, as they have done numerous times in the past before the

> H1N1 outbreak. They also weren't saying that astragalus doesn't work. They

> were responding to Weil's illegal " disease claims " that his product can

> prevent the swine flu. Even if the product underwent clinical trials and

> successfully prevented or treated H1N1, it would STILL be illegal to claim

> that. He would have to market the product as a drug after undergoing all the

> usual expensive hurdles of introducing a new drug.

>

> Do the FDA / FTC favor vaccines over herbs? Of course they do. That is the

> current state of public health science, flawed as it may be, and they are

> simply reflecting that reality.

>

> Whenever a supplement is marketed as treating or preventing a potentially

> fatal disease, the FDA or FTC come down heavy on that company. It has

> nothing to do with the actual efficacy of the product. Is the law unfair?

> Sometimes, but it is much better than the way it was before DSHEA, when you

> couldn't make any claims at all for herbal products. Structure function

> claims are vague and broad by their nature, but they are legal. Weil could

> have claimed that his product supports a healthy immune system, and FTC

> would have left him alone.

>

> - Bill Schoenbart

>

> , " Douglas Dailey " <ddailey@>

> wrote:

> >

> > It is easy for those of us licensed (allowed) to administer TOM (or TCM,

> > etc) to miss how others might view some of our raw materials, such as

> > astragalus. I hope we all have seen what the outsider Mike Adams has said

> > about the recent Andrew Weil 'event'.

> >

> > http://www.naturalnews.com/027303_the_FTC_America_vaccines.html

> >

> > http://www.naturalnews.com/027302_astragalus_the_flu.html

> >

> > http://www.naturalnews.com/027301_swine_flu_influenza_pandemic.html

> >

> > Douglas Dailey, L.Ac.

> > Near San Francisco CA

> >

>

> ---

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a

> practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum.

>

October 24, 2009

Douglas,

I'll respond to the comments in your post, but let's avoid personal attacks

while discussing this issue.

Comment # 1: " It appears you have done some intensive observation of the FDA. "

My response: Yes, I have reviewed thousands of label claims over the past 15

years since the passage of the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act

(DSHEA). My job as a consultant has been to help companies avoid being contacted

by FDA or FTC. In the earlier years, I was forced to battle with marketing

departments that wanted to make illegal label claims. Later on, I saw companies

get fined millions of dollars for making those same claims. There is a very

clear line that can't be crossed regarding advertising and label claims. Andrew

Weill crossed that line, which is why FTC went after him.

Comment # 2: " So you are aware that Monsanto has sued and put out of business

over 10,000 American farmers in the last 10 years because a few of their

patented genetically modified seeds have mysteriously appeared .. in the

farmer's fields. "

My response: I am well aware of the evil deeds performed by Monsanto in defense

of their genetically modified seeds. I have written to Congress about this, and

have donated money to groups opposing this. I'm not sure what this has to do

with FTC enforcing advertising laws, though.

Comment # 3: " Monsanto's chief lawyer actually became director of FDA for about

a year in order to tweak the FDA's laws. "

My response: I am also aware of the revolving door between FDA and the

pharmaceutical industry. This was magnified in the past 8 years when virtually

all government agencies were taken over and gutted by the very industries they

were meant to regulate. However, there were no changes made to DSHEA during this

time.

Comment # 4: " You should ponder deeply the fact that conspiratory behavior is

more closely linked with big business than it is with the behavior of Mike

Adams, whose writing you describe as " conspiratorial nonsense " . "

My response: I'm not familiar with the writings of Mike Adams, other than the

articles on the FTC action. My comment about conspiratorial nonsense was in

response to his specific claim that FTC acted on the behest of the vaccine

companies. Where is his evidence? Are the vaccine companies happy that FTC is

going after their competition? Probably, but that doesn't establish causation. I

could have told Andrew Weill that his web page was illegal just by looking at

it. If he had made legal claims, he would not have been attacked by FTC even if

vaccine companies wanted that to happen.

Comment # 5: " Perhaps you killed people in a war foisted for profits only, and

want to believe yourself a spokesman for peace and honor "

My response: This sort of personal attack is unwarranted. This web group isn't a

town hall meeting where people vent their rage without actually addressing the

issues. As a matter of fact, I refused to go to Vietnam to kill Asians for my

misguided government. I spent a couple of years living in a tent in the woods to

avoid being arrested and sent overseas to fight in yet another unnecessary war.

Comment # 6: " So go ahead, suck-up and make money. And when people have opinions

that frighten you, call it " conspiratorial nonsense " . "

My response: Once again, let's keep the personal insults out of the discussion.

Your opinions don't frighten me. But decribing FDA and FTC as a bunch of

jack-booted thugs out to get supplement companies could be described as fear

mongering. Yes, there was a time before DSHEA when FDA would show up at a

company with guns and confiscate whole shipments of " dangerous " substances like

black currant extract. One of the reasons DSHEA was passed was to prevent this

sort of abuse of power. They still screw up, but not on the same absurd scale as

in the past.

In summary, FTC went after Weill because he broke the law, probably

unintentionally. They announced in advance that they would go after companies

advertising a cure for SARS or the swine flu. Weill's regulatory affairs people

let him down by allowing the illegal claim on his web page. They placed him

squarely in the sights of the FTC. If he had made legal claims, no amount of

pressure from vaccine companies would have prompted FDA or FTC to take action

against him.